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Vicious Auduin
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:36:00 - [1231]
 

Edited by: Vicious Auduin on 15/07/2011 17:36:59
Originally by: Mintala Arana
Originally by: edith prickley
My point was rather that credit card thieves probably have some monetary motivation, and there may be more effective ways to use stolen credit cards. I'm not sure it makes sense that bot users are commonly funding their activities by credit card fraud, especially when there are perfectly legal ways to pay for an account in-game via bot-generated ISK.
No, you miss the point. Pretending for the moment that I'm part of an RMT operation, and that I have access to stolen credit card data, why would I not fund my bots with a stolen credit card? The isk I would spend on plex is isk that I could sell, and the stolen credit card is free.


Why would you use stolen credit card info? If you had a decent hulk and mining the right stuff you could easily pay for a plex in a few hours. A few hours is nothing to a bot.

Llyandrian
Amarr
Livestock Science Exchange
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:04:00 - [1232]
 

Originally by: edith prickley

My point was rather that credit card thieves probably have some monetary motivation, and there may be more effective ways to use stolen credit cards.



I think you are perhaps missing that RMT offers a route to launder stolen credit cards details into real money.

Use Stolen CC to purchase PLEX.
Sell PLEX for ISK.
Launder ISK within game.
Sell ISK for real money out of game.

This could all be done with Trial and Buddy accounts extended with some of the fraudulently obtained PLEX.




Neftaran
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:38:00 - [1233]
 

Edited by: Neftaran on 15/07/2011 18:44:53
It's the large scale operations that are the most detrimental to the player base and to CCP. The type of operations that control market regions, and support ISK purchasing websites. Those are the operations that take money out of CCP's pocket book and effect the markets. I really could not care less about Jim Bob over there sucking down rocks for his corp or to pay for his second, third, or forth account that eves own game mechanics forces him into.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:47:00 - [1234]
 

Originally by: Neftaran
Edited by: Neftaran on 15/07/2011 18:44:53
It's the large scale operations that are the most detrimental to the player base and to CCP. The type of operations that control market regions, and support ISK purchasing websites. Those are the operations that take money out of CCP's pocket book and effect the markets. I really could not care less about Jim Bob over there sucking down rocks for his corp or to pay for his second, third, or forth account that eves own game mechanics forces him into.

And you have a right to not care about the little guy.

Downside, there is no way to tell who is a part of a massive RMT ring and who is just one guy using a mining bot (hard enough to identify bots these days... with surety I mean).

Hence, we go for all of them.

Neftaran
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:19:00 - [1235]
 

Should be careful what you wish for... If CCP banned every customer that used a bot in this game they would lose a high % of their customer base. It's Easy enough to see that when a major patch comes in that effects the bots that over half of the active pilots are gone. Coincidence? I think not. In the end you have to ask yourself why does a 'normal' player choose to take the path to use a bot? In eve, in particular, I think you will come to the conclusion it's the games mechanics. So as a developer they should look to ways to address the specific mechanics that turn their 'average' player to automation software.

Just reporting random people and waving the ban hammer around is not going to produce any positive change for the active player base. You effectively force 'Jim bob' out of the game. While Jim may well be a 'cheat' so to speak, he was still an active player and not a 'bot' made for RMT profit. Lets say you take out 'Jim' and 15,000 others like him. Who have you hurt other than yourself and CCPs bottom line? I guess you could keep going down that path and you would get rid of the for profit farms.. because it would not be viable for them to run operations when there are no more customers from them to sell ISK to.

You will never stop large scale bot farm operations as long as the game is profitable for them. These are for profit advanced operations, not some adolescent in his basement coding away with a 12 pack of jolt cola next to the monitor. This is not to say that CCP can't hinder these types of operations, but to completely stop them would take steps most companies are unwilling to take.

Address the issues of why normal 'players' turn to automation then focus your security team on hindering large scale RMT operations. Which is what causes CCP to lose profits based on plex in the first place.



Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
Originally by: Neftaran
Edited by: Neftaran on 15/07/2011 18:44:53
Downside, there is no way to tell who is a part of a massive RMT ring and who is just one guy using a mining bot (hard enough to identify bots these days... with surety I mean).

Hence, we go for all of them.



Dr DustRemover
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:25:00 - [1236]
 

Originally by: Neftaran
Address the issues of why normal 'players' turn to automation then focus your security team on hindering large scale RMT operations. Which is what causes CCP to lose profits based on plex in the first place.


Regular people begin botting because of the unfair practices of other botters makes their work meaningless, i.e. people bot because of bots.

Mystery solved. You're welcome.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:28:00 - [1237]
 

CCP will do nothing about bots as long as the lead game designer for internet spaceships is a member of an alliance that bots and RMTs on a massive scale.

Is CCP a bunch of corrupt, unethical liars?

Well, duh. Do you think they'd put a goon in charge of game design if they weren't?

Neftaran
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:34:00 - [1238]
 

Sorry Dr. but I think you are choosing to ignore game mechanics in favor of a simplistic viewpoint.

Originally by: Dr DustRemover
Originally by: Neftaran
Address the issues of why normal 'players' turn to automation then focus your security team on hindering large scale RMT operations. Which is what causes CCP to lose profits based on plex in the first place.


Regular people begin botting because of the unfair practices of other botters makes their work meaningless, i.e. people bot because of bots.

Mystery solved. You're welcome.

Dr DustRemover
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:58:00 - [1239]
 

Originally by: Neftaran
Sorry Dr. but I think you are choosing to ignore game mechanics in favor of a simplistic viewpoint.

Originally by: Dr DustRemover
Originally by: Neftaran
Address the issues of why normal 'players' turn to automation then focus your security team on hindering large scale RMT operations. Which is what causes CCP to lose profits based on plex in the first place.


Regular people begin botting because of the unfair practices of other botters makes their work meaningless, i.e. people bot because of bots.

Mystery solved. You're welcome.



Incorrect sir, you're ignoring simple answers to look for complexity.

Neftaran
Posted - 2011.07.15 21:31:00 - [1240]
 

Edited by: Neftaran on 15/07/2011 21:32:12
I would disagree. I do not have to look for any complexity when the simple mechanics of the game that would bring players to this is quite apparent.

As for making ones 'work meaningless' If I mine an hour and a bot mines an hour I feel in no way that my hour of mining is "meaningless" because of his/her actions. Is some how the ore I mined less useful? No. What about the conversations I have with other players while I'm mining have those been devalued because some other player in the system is botting? No. The items I manufacture have they been affected because I was mining by hand and someone else was not? No.

What your describing is a a frustration that someone feels that they put in their time while another has not. Could this reaction push a normal player to use a bot? Sure, I'll give you that some people may start to bot for that reason. However, I do not believe that is the sole reason or majority reason that player(s) would turn to automation.

Originally by: Dr DustRemover
Originally by: Neftaran
Sorry Dr. but I think you are choosing to ignore game mechanics in favor of a simplistic viewpoint.

Originally by: Dr DustRemover
Originally by: Neftaran
Address the issues of why normal 'players' turn to automation then focus your security team on hindering large scale RMT operations. Which is what causes CCP to lose profits based on plex in the first place.


Regular people begin botting because of the unfair practices of other botters makes their work meaningless, i.e. people bot because of bots.

Mystery solved. You're welcome.



Incorrect sir, you're ignoring simple answers to look for complexity.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 21:37:00 - [1241]
 

Originally by: Neftaran
As for making ones 'work meaningless' If I mine an hour and a bot mines an hour I feel in no way that my hour of mining is "meaningless" because of his/her actions. Is some how the ore I mined less useful? No. What about the conversations I have with other players while I'm mining have those been devalued because some other player in the system is botting? No. The items I manufacture have they been affected because I was mining by hand and someone else was not? No.


C'mon now, if you're going to troll, you've got to make it so that at least 5% of the population is dumb enough to believe what you're saying. But for the 5% (who knows, some of the Lost in EVE guys might be reading,) I'd better spell it out.

If I play EVE and make 20M ISK/hr mining and someone else AFK's EVE and makes 500M ISK/hr botting on multiple accounts 23/7, of course that devalues my effort.

Pathrison
L0pht Heavy Industries
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.16 21:59:00 - [1242]
 

Rather than banning those accounts, why not make then red and blinky. Then mining would become a whole lot more fun!

Sekhen
Majestic-5
Posted - 2011.07.16 22:03:00 - [1243]
 

Originally by: Pathrison
Rather than banning those accounts, why not make then red and blinky. Then mining would become a whole lot more fun!


I support this product and/or service!!
Empire would be FUN. =D

Gerald Sphinx
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.16 22:22:00 - [1244]
 

Originally by: Neftaran
What your describing is a a frustration that someone feels that they put in their time while another has not. Could this reaction push a normal player to use a bot? Sure, I'll give you that some people may start to bot for that reason. However, I do not believe that is the sole reason or majority reason that player(s) would turn to automation.




Players who use bots fall into three categories:

Category 1: The Lazies - People who don't want to be bothered with looking at a rock for hours on end just to mine enough to buy a battleship. These are the people who fail to realize that they don't need to mine to earn ISK. There are other options that provide ISK. Basically, why do a task you get bored of if you have options?

Category 2: The RMT People - ISK farmers and ISK sellers. Plain and simple.

Category 3: The Ignorant Ones - People who didn't bother to read and understand the policies that an MMO company has against RMT and Botting. They simply go to some third-party website to download a suspicious bot program (without consulting with the MMO developers) and then they get banned by said company for botting. These are the same people who happen to be driven by the "frustration that someone feels that they put in their time while another has not".

Regardless of which category these bot user fall under, they all come up with stupid excuses to justify their cheating practices in a game where cheating is not allowed. If 40,000 players are playing against each other in a game of chess (assuming all the pieces are in a massive game board - hence the sand box) and a few of those players decide to cut corners by moving the knight one extra square more every now and then, it will have a negative effect against those who are trying to play chess by the rules. Suddenly, when one of the cheaters are caught, they start complaining, *****ing and moaning saying "hey, this guy was doing it to, so I get to do it to".

The point is not that others are doing it. The point is that the rules are being broken and those who break the rules (regardless of motive) need to be punished.

Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.07.18 14:24:00 - [1245]
 

Friendly bump for an interesting thread.

**** all botters, from the big RMTs to the one man one account shows. All of them. No mercy.

The whinage makes me sick. Oh god mining is SOOOO HARRRRD. Oh the game's mechanics forced me too!

Playing over seven years, one account, quite wealthy. Turn brain on, do not just click and grunt your way through game, win.

decoyman
Posted - 2011.07.18 15:07:00 - [1246]
 

Edited by: decoyman on 18/07/2011 15:07:37
Originally by: Gerald Sphinx

Players who use bots fall into three categories:
....




You completely missed category 4, people who write their own macros. They would like to make isk AND do something productive at the same time, the something productive being learning/practicing programming.

You should be able to recognize that, some people, given the choice between shooting npcs for an hour to make 100m or writing some code for an hour to make 100m, will always choose the later.

I point this out, because the current measures in place fight the categories you've listed, they don't really address this final group.


Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.07.18 17:53:00 - [1247]
 

Originally by: Neftaran

In the end you have to ask yourself why does a 'normal' player choose to take the path to use a bot? In eve, in particular, I think you will come to the conclusion it's the games mechanics. So as a developer they should look to ways to address the specific mechanics that turn their 'average' player to automation software.



QFT.

It should be the case that to write a macro, you are also writing a program that outperforms a human. Unfortunately the ISK making PVE side of the game is so crap that it begs to be automated.

Any detection system CCP bring in will rapidly be outsmarted, the only real solutions are PVE that requires a brain, and challenge/response mechanisms to ensure someone is at the keyboard. I was shot down for suggesting the latter in another thread, even presenting it as a 'rewards for bot spotting' mechanic.


Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.18 19:22:00 - [1248]
 

I've noticed the mission botters have started to come back.. better organized and more careful than before... but still in huge numbers.


Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.18 19:24:00 - [1249]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Originally by: Neftaran
As for making ones 'work meaningless' If I mine an hour and a bot mines an hour I feel in no way that my hour of mining is "meaningless" because of his/her actions. Is some how the ore I mined less useful? No. What about the conversations I have with other players while I'm mining have those been devalued because some other player in the system is botting? No. The items I manufacture have they been affected because I was mining by hand and someone else was not? No.


C'mon now, if you're going to troll, you've got to make it so that at least 5% of the population is dumb enough to believe what you're saying. But for the 5% (who knows, some of the Lost in EVE guys might be reading,) I'd better spell it out.

If I play EVE and make 20M ISK/hr mining and someone else AFK's EVE and makes 500M ISK/hr botting on multiple accounts 23/7, of course that devalues my effort.


The same thing could be said of someone who mines longer and better than you wihtout botting...

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:15:00 - [1250]
 

Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Originally by: Neftaran
As for making ones 'work meaningless' If I mine an hour and a bot mines an hour I feel in no way that my hour of mining is "meaningless" because of his/her actions. Is some how the ore I mined less useful? No. What about the conversations I have with other players while I'm mining have those been devalued because some other player in the system is botting? No. The items I manufacture have they been affected because I was mining by hand and someone else was not? No.


C'mon now, if you're going to troll, you've got to make it so that at least 5% of the population is dumb enough to believe what you're saying. But for the 5% (who knows, some of the Lost in EVE guys might be reading,) I'd better spell it out.

If I play EVE and make 20M ISK/hr mining and someone else AFK's EVE and makes 500M ISK/hr botting on multiple accounts 23/7, of course that devalues my effort.


The same thing could be said of someone who mines longer and better than you wihtout botting...


Speaking of mining bots alone, they FLOOD the market with cheap minerals which drives the market prices for said minerals down.

The person that actually mines, rather than use bots, finds his time spent earns less and less ISK in return. Having a nice chat while mining is fine, but it doesn't pay for your equipment.

That is pretty much the definition of "devaluing or rendering meaningless your play time".

George Zeller
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:52:00 - [1251]
 

I've only just discovered this thread and the word on what CCP is doing....

I was mining ice today for the first time in at least a couple of months (3 accounts so two Mackinaws and an Orca) and I did notice that the ice field was far less busy than I'd seen it before. Now I'm wondering if this is a result of CCP's efforts?


Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.18 22:13:00 - [1252]
 

Many ice miners have noticed the same thing. Ive seen bots in an ice belt one day, then all gone the next. Also ice prices have risen nicely to the point that its an actual profession again.

Gerald Sphinx
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:16:00 - [1253]
 

Originally by: George Zeller
I've only just discovered this thread and the word on what CCP is doing....

I was mining ice today for the first time in at least a couple of months (3 accounts so two Mackinaws and an Orca) and I did notice that the ice field was far less busy than I'd seen it before. Now I'm wondering if this is a result of CCP's efforts?




Originally by: Vincent Athena
Many ice miners have noticed the same thing. Ive seen bots in an ice belt one day, then all gone the next. Also ice prices have risen nicely to the point that its an actual profession again.


It's very difficult to tell if CCP had a hand in making those ice miners disappear. The best way to know for sure is to ask them directly. Other than that, all we have is assumptions. However, if the selling price of ice minerals have risen since the disappearance of said miners, then perhaps CCP did have a hand in it

Or perhaps the ice prices are rising ever since rumors began to circulate that CCP might make all ice roids exclusive to low sec and null sec. If the rumors are true, the price of ice minerals will rise as ice miners in high sec start withholding their stockpiles. Let's also not forget about the regular asteroid (non-ice) belt miners. Those are more difficult to detect since asteroids are everywhere and there are plenty of isolated systems to operate in throughout New Eden.

Haakon BaKaron
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:57:00 - [1254]
 

I have not read the whole thread so I do not know if this has been mentioned, but one thing CCP can do is change the way mining is done. Make each mining cycle bring in a lot of ore, but the longer you stay the frequency and severity of the pirate attacks increases to the point where you cannot mine any more. It would reduce the time people could stay in the field and provide better ratting for other players. Maybe even eliminate some level of missions and replace with intense ratting.

Thoughts from the unwashed masses? Very Happy

Zleon Leigh
Posted - 2011.07.19 00:21:00 - [1255]
 

Originally by: Haakon BaKaron
I have not read the whole thread so I do not know if this has been mentioned, but one thing CCP can do is change the way mining is done. Make each mining cycle bring in a lot of ore, but the longer you stay the frequency and severity of the pirate attacks increases to the point where you cannot mine any more. It would reduce the time people could stay in the field and provide better ratting for other players. Maybe even eliminate some level of missions and replace with intense ratting.

Thoughts from the unwashed masses? Very Happy


The problem with that is that the bots are now fielding protective ships to discourage and/or raise the cost of ganking. You would have to have the pirate aggression/ability so high that real miners would be challenged to get anything accomplished.

Right now I have zero confidence in CCP on addressing this because they will not reveal any progress. All I've seen is more advanced bots being fielded.


Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.19 00:37:00 - [1256]
 

Edited by: Rykuss on 19/07/2011 00:40:28
Edited by: Rykuss on 19/07/2011 00:40:00
Originally by: Neftaran
Edited by: Neftaran on 15/07/2011 21:32:12
I would disagree. I do not have to look for any complexity when the simple mechanics of the game that would bring players to this is quite apparent.

As for making ones 'work meaningless' If I mine an hour and a bot mines an hour I feel in no way that my hour of mining is "meaningless" because of his/her actions. Is some how the ore I mined less useful? No. What about the conversations I have with other players while I'm mining have those been devalued because some other player in the system is botting? No. The items I manufacture have they been affected because I was mining by hand and someone else was not? No.

What your describing is a a frustration that someone feels that they put in their time while another has not. Could this reaction push a normal player to use a bot? Sure, I'll give you that some people may start to bot for that reason. However, I do not believe that is the sole reason or majority reason that player(s) would turn to automation.


Spoken like a true botter, well done. Your reasoning amounts to exactly squat. People bot because they consider playing by the rules, "boring" and "unfair". Why should they have to earn their way when they just want to have "fun". I see this same crap argument from you people over and over again. The same entitled little snowflakes that sign up for a trial and the first thing you type in the channels is, "what's the quickest way to get a plex so I can play for free". My personal favorite, "Hey wouldn't it be cool if..." <insert moronic game changing proposal that benefits entitled little snowflake's ambitions>, if only I had an isk for everytime I had to read that.

It doesn't matter that you find a particular activity boring, there is no excuse for botting. Period. You bot because you can't hack it<pun intended> in eve. Laughing It's ok, not everyone can. Perhaps hello kitty online is more your speed. I hear everyone is a winner over there. Very Happy

EDIT: Because I get the feeling you're actually that daft, I'll leave these words for you on how it effects everyone. PLAYER DRIVEN ECONOMY

Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.07.20 04:19:00 - [1257]
 

Another bump.

Where has the stealthy spud gone?

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.20 04:20:00 - [1258]
 

Sticky please!

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.07.20 04:43:00 - [1259]
 

Originally by: Komen
Another bump.

Where has the stealthy spud gone?

Haven't seen him. In game or out.

Could be many reasons. Ran out of disposable income for sub, can't play Incarna due to old computer... those are the only two I can think of right now.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:17:00 - [1260]
 

Along with Spud, we are also missing CCP Sreegs. Her use to make occasional appearances in this thread and the other bot thread, but has not for a long time. Also, we are still waiting for his blog.


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