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Captain Megadeath
Posted - 2011.07.04 14:16:00 - [1201]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
many pay with stolen credit card numbers, costing CCP both lost revenue and all the work needed when the real CC owner wants their money back.

Eve is better off bot free. We know it, CCP knows it.


This

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:35:00 - [1202]
 

We have the "report bot" feature.

To use it, do a get info on the suspect pilot, right click on the three horizontal lines at the top left of the character info window, and you get a menu with report bot at the bottom.

There are rumors that Sreegs has a weapon-that-cannot-be-named for those who abuse it.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:57:00 - [1203]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
We have the "report bot" feature.

To use it, do a get info on the suspect pilot, right click on the three horizontal lines at the top left of the character info window, and you get a menu with report bot at the bottom.

There are rumors that Sreegs has a weapon-that-cannot-be-named for those who abuse it.

That sounds awsome. Should really put a dent in the bot population...

Amar Azaph
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:54:00 - [1204]
 

what are the tell tale signs of a bot? and how do we find them?

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:03:00 - [1205]
 

Originally by: Amar Azaph
what are the tell tale signs of a bot? and how do we find them?


1. Poast in this thread
2. Cry bots are the game's greatest problem, while ignoring CCP
3. Spam report bot button
4. ???
5. Profit

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:16:00 - [1206]
 

Originally by: Amar Azaph
what are the tell tale signs of a bot? and how do we find them?


They do things players do not do. This is hard because players do a wide variety of strange things, making it a difficult task.

Staying logged in and active 23/7 is obvious, and takes a couple of people to verify. Another giveaway is if a miner gets ganked and their pod keeps warping back and forth to the belt, like its trying to mine, over and over.

I once saw a group of 3 Macks and a combat ship warp into a belt, then seconds later warp out, only to return a couple of minutes later and repeat the cycle. This repeated maybe a dozen times. My guess is it was a bot fleet programmed to warp out if a combat ship got close. The bot owner forgot to move one pilot into an Orca, resulting in the bot self triggering its warpout procedure. There were other groups of Macks and Orcas in the ice belt. I was multiboxing one of them. But I happened to have a cat stashed in the orca, so I swapped into it and flew about salvaging wrecks, and "accidentally" getting close to other groups. They did not do anything until I got to 15 km, then they would fleet warp out.

Apparently this was obvious to CCP too, because two days later they were all gone.

Several things are indicators, but in no way proof as players do them. But if sufficient indicators are present then the odds of it being a bot are greater.

Things like doing the same activity over and over hour after hour. People tend to get bored and change activities, bots never do.

Never talking in local, never responding to convos, never responding to bumps.

Warping into your mining op and mining the same roids you are mining, and continuing to do it even when you repeatably mine rocks out from under him.

If you steal a mission payload, jet it and set the can blue, they will not get it, but just sit there for hours.

Not proof, so if it looks bot-like, let CCP sort it out.

This actually shows the best way to show you are not a bot: Be social. This is a social game, interact with others. Bots cannot do that.


Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:22:00 - [1207]
 

Great news on the report bot button. Now I don't have to file a petition.

Any idea if it asks for more information or does it work like the ISK spammer button? Personally I would like it to open a message box that allowed me to detail all the stuff that lead to me clicking the button.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:26:00 - [1208]
 

I have not had a chance to try it, but second hand heard its like the ISK spammer button. A warning about abusing it and nothing else.

Dex Ironmind
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:28:00 - [1209]
 

Call me blind or stupid, but where is the "Report BOT" button. I could not find it?

Dex was here. Cool

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:43:00 - [1210]
 

Originally by: Dex Ironmind
Call me blind or stupid, but where is the "Report BOT" button. I could not find it?

Dex was here. Cool


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Dex Ironmind
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:56:00 - [1211]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Dex Ironmind
Call me blind or stupid, but where is the "Report BOT" button. I could not find it?

Dex was here. Cool


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


Thanks! Didn't think to look at the "Show Info" right click menu.

Dex was here. Cool

Volidium
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:55:00 - [1212]
 

*Bump* keep up the good work. It took me 2 days to read all this and I did skim through some. As someone said a while back, this post should be a Sticky. I'll start to keep an eye out now that I have a good idea what to look for.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.06 03:32:00 - [1213]
 

Nice to see this thread back in the front page. So far, our activities have been quiet for a long while since the massive protest that occurred throughout New Eden. But even now, we are dormant since no one seems to be reporting on anything (not even on the mailing list). On top of that, Ninjaspud seems to have gone quiet as well. I tried contacting him about two weeks ago but didn't respond. I also tried contacting him about my account in the bot grief forum that was setup but no reply (must be out of town or something).

Anyways, we can still operate without him if he is unable to help. Most of us are miners/industrialists anyways that have access to our own resources so we should have no problem operating on our own. And since CCP has now allowed us to report bots more effectively with the "report bot user" feature, this should make it easier for the petitions to go through.

As for checking to see which ship is a bot, that is the hard part. It's tempting to look at an ice belt filled with 60+ mackinaws and assume they are mostly bots, but it's very bad to jump the gun and start ganking them based on an assumption and subjective evidence. This is why we do the most research we can on the suspects (constant scouting, taking weeks worth of notes, etc.) before we report them and (possibly) gank them.

It also helps to get intel on how a bot operates, what its weaknesses are and how it reacts to certain conditions. This is where spying on the bot community comes in handy. Since no one could ever trust a bot site's security, it's recommended to look into those sites via a public computer or a junk computer that you have little use for (one that you will never access your personal info in). If you have to create an account to access their forums, it's best to use a disposable email address that many sites offer along with a throw-away password. Some bot sites may even require payment to access the forums. To avoid using your real credit card, it's always best to put some cash into a disposable credit card (Green Dot anyone?) that can be controlled and bought at your local retail store. Once you are in, you can gather as much intel as you can on how to effectively hunt down and report specific botters.

Once you are done scouting the bot forums, you scan your computer for malware, clear your browser cookies and cache, etc.

If you're too paranoid to go near the virus-infested bot forums, you can always follow these tips:

1. Go to a system and add to your contacts every miner or missioner your see there. Create a label specific to that system and assign the label to said contacts (who are marked as neutrals to you). Over time, check to see if A) they are logging as groups or individuals, B) they have a peculiar relationship to each other via their employment history, and C) when they log in and out.

2. If you find a group, check to see if each member of the group has a very common employment history but are in different npc corps. Also, check their names. Some could have similarities or highly suggestive names (ie: bot1, bot2, roidripper200221, etc.) that draw attention. Individual botters are much more harder to find.

Once you have narrowed down your search, it's time to start taking more notes. For the next few weeks, start noting what their common log times are, which ships they use, what fittings they have (if you can scan them), how they are organized, how they react to certain actions (ie: targeting, bumping, convo requests, can flipping, etc.). Please note that ice miners take a while to respond since ice harvesters have a very long cycle time and therefore create an ideal condition to semi-afk mine. So, you tried to communicate with then, wait a while before you try again.

If you have gathered pages of intel and have a very high certainty that your suspect is a bot, don't hesitate to report them. In fact, report them before you gank them since CCP has direct access to their accounts and their ISK trail.

Mikk36
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.06 09:26:00 - [1214]
 

Henry Haphorn, just out of curiosity: how many virus/malware encounters have you had with the bot forums?

Sadayiel
Caldari
Inner Conflict
Posted - 2011.07.06 09:32:00 - [1215]
 

i think ninjaspud got several weeks as holidays and out of forums hence the reason the thread been a bit quiet lately.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.06 16:05:00 - [1216]
 

Originally by: Mikk36
Henry Haphorn, just out of curiosity: how many virus/malware encounters have you had with the bot forums?


Only one close encounter so far. But it's always a good idea to assume that all bot websites are infected.

Mikk36
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.07 10:58:00 - [1217]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn
Originally by: Mikk36
Henry Haphorn, just out of curiosity: how many virus/malware encounters have you had with the bot forums?


Only one close encounter so far. But it's always a good idea to assume that all bot websites are infected.
If you put it like that, it's always a good idea to assume that all websites are infected.

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.07.10 09:16:00 - [1218]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena

Actually if they paid with PLEX, CCP would still get money. But many pay with stolen credit card numbers, costing CCP both lost revenue and all the work needed when the real CC owner wants their money back.


I've heard this rumour before, but are there any data backing it up?

It seems to me that if I had a pocket full of stolen credit card numbers, I'm not sure buying Eve game time would be the most sensible way to monetize them. Even if playing Eve was your main objective, you could probably use the credit cards for something more profitable, and then spend the resulting money on eve, plus have some left over to buy beer. And having a cancelled credit card attached to your bot account seems like a very short-term win, since that's an obvious case for CCP to close it or at least view future transactions with some suspicion.

Anyhow, this stolen credit card notion has come up before, so maybe there's something behind it; just wondering.

(And bump. Whatever happened to that dev blog, by the way?)

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 26/05/2011 03:31:38
Hey guys, I haven't had time to catch up but I wanted to let you know that I'm working on a blog that should go out in the next week or so and I've included some numbers that I think do a bit to show our progress and justify some of the decisions we've made so far. I also have some pretty exciting additional stuff to talk about. I'll let you know when I have a definite publication date.


Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:40:00 - [1219]
 

The stolen credit card thing is actually from CCP Sreegs' blog on phishing. He gave no numbers, just stated it happens.

I have heard elsewhere that many people who use stolen credit cards try to do small stuff only in hopes it will not be noticed.

IDGAD
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:10:00 - [1220]
 

Edited by: IDGAD on 10/07/2011 18:13:03
Edited by: IDGAD on 10/07/2011 18:10:59
Has anyone seen any results with drf bots? High sec miners are minnows in the ocean that is the bot community. I do not have numbers to offer but think about how much more a 0.0 ratter/miner makes vs. High sec. Solar fleet for example hold much of the drf stock. Controlling as much space as they do is arguable as a result o their monopoly of drone space and heir subsequent botting. I assume each moderately active member of SOLAR has anywhere from 3-6 accounts or at least individual characters. 1-2 mains, mom alt, dread or carrier alt and 1-3 bots. I think this estimate is mean or even conservative to the reality of their operation. Leading to the reality that all of said accounts are paid for with botted isk. At least one quite patient individual has been leading the fight against null botters for months. Alone cracking the code and killing billions on nearly a daily basis. Sometimes the same toon multiple times a day. Ridding eve of botters will be a sad
day for him I'm afraid. But it's what must be done.
His is all speculation as I have no impericle evidence other than what I've witnessed and can attest to, but I'm not the arbiter of truth and can not convict these offenders with words alone. I hope one day a great war will be set against them on eves battle field, not with the banhammer, as the victory will be much sweeter.
They are great enemies in small gangs, since they don't have the numbers. Actual pvp is a pretty even fight, but come sov warfare, just forget it. Moms and moms with mercenary padding make sov warfare a joke. That's all for now, typing with iPhone is troublesome.

RutilusUnus
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:20:00 - [1221]
 

The report bot feature is one of the best things CCP has done in a long time. Good job on that!

Can we have our Roden Shipyards Megathron now please?

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.12 21:14:00 - [1222]
 

Ok, CCP Screegs, I think it's about time we get a heads up on when we expect to see the blog report regarding the anti-bot war.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.12 21:31:00 - [1223]
 

Originally by: edith prickley


I've heard this rumour before, but are there any data backing it up?




There is no need to back this up with numbers. Bot writers are known to embed malicious code within their bot programs that enable the creator to record account information on the unsuspecting user. Once the account information is stolen, it is all left up to speculation as to what the thief does with the information. Some sell the information for profit while others simply use it to expand their bot operations directly in the MMO market.

Also, think about the costs that CCP has to suffer when the victim finds out he/she has been robbed of their money. CCP will then have to refund every penny that was used by the hacker for ill intent. Not to mention the fact that credit card companies will then be involved in the investigation which later results in the federal authorities of your country to get involved. The process alone can cost money to CCP (money that should be used for improving the game).

This is why I always check my bank statements and two Eve accounts to see if anything suspicious happens. If I do suffer an attack, I simply call the bank and ask them to either freeze my account until it is safe to use it or (if it's less severe) simply freeze the credit card involved in the transaction and ask for a replacement (the banks usually change the numbers every time).

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:03:00 - [1224]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn
Ok, CCP Screegs, I think it's about time we get a heads up on when we expect to see the blog report regarding the anti-bot war.


Relax. Stop pestering him. He said back in May that he would have the blog up in the "next week or so...". What part of that don't you understand?

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:07:00 - [1225]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Henry Haphorn
Ok, CCP Screegs, I think it's about time we get a heads up on when we expect to see the blog report regarding the anti-bot war.


Relax. Stop pestering him. He said back in May that he would have the blog up in the "next week or so...". What part of that don't you understand?


I feel so sorry.Laughing

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:24:00 - [1226]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn
Originally by: edith prickley

I've heard this rumour before, but are there any data backing it up?


Also, think about the costs that CCP has to suffer when the victim finds out he/she has been robbed of their money. CCP will then have to refund every penny that was used by the hacker for ill intent. Not to mention the fact that credit card companies will then be involved in the investigation which later results in the federal authorities of your country to get involved. The process alone can cost money to CCP (money that should be used for improving the game).


Yeah. When it happens, I'm sure it's a hassle for everybody involved.

My point was rather that credit card thieves probably have some monetary motivation, and there may be more effective ways to use stolen credit cards. I'm not sure it makes sense that bot users are commonly funding their activities by credit card fraud, especially when there are perfectly legal ways to pay for an account in-game via bot-generated ISK.

My guess is that credit card fraudsters are at most a tiny fraction of the bot population/problem.

Anyhow, it's all speculation without numbers. Any numbers. (... cue crickets chirping.)

Shotgun Wedding2
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:48:00 - [1227]
 

looking forward to the next report.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:18:00 - [1228]
 

Edited by: Vincent Athena on 15/07/2011 13:19:33
From the CSM minutes in the Eve Security Task Force section. This was the May meeting.

"CSM was shown a graph of the number of characters actively performing a “certain action” more than 20 hours a day. There were huge chasms in the graph around Chinese New Year, Hulkageddon, and a final cliff like drop after the first ESTF bannings. This graph was created to show general activity, and that the “certain action” was not a signature used to determine if someone was botting. ESTF has already done bans for ratting, mining and market bots."

And:

"Only 8% of players who receive their first strike go on to get a second strike. CSM noted that this compares to a 1-year recidivism rate in the US of 16%, which indicates that EVE players are distressingly law-abiding.

As of the week before the summit, nearly 100 players had received a third-strike, but an additional number of players who had been caught botting were separately banned for RMT.

CSM raised the concern that the numbers being shown were being affected by character laundering (selling of characters that have received strikes and replacing them with clean characters). However, CCP tracks this activity and the numbers are not significant."

The CSM also got to see graphs. CCP Sreegs, we need our graphs!
(edited for clarity)

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:52:00 - [1229]
 

Originally by: edith prickley
My point was rather that credit card thieves probably have some monetary motivation, and there may be more effective ways to use stolen credit cards. I'm not sure it makes sense that bot users are commonly funding their activities by credit card fraud, especially when there are perfectly legal ways to pay for an account in-game via bot-generated ISK.
No, you miss the point. Pretending for the moment that I'm part of an RMT operation, and that I have access to stolen credit card data, why would I not fund my bots with a stolen credit card? The isk I would spend on plex is isk that I could sell, and the stolen credit card is free.

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:10:00 - [1230]
 

Originally by: Mintala Arana
Originally by: edith prickley
My point was rather that credit card thieves probably have some monetary motivation, and there may be more effective ways to use stolen credit cards. I'm not sure it makes sense that bot users are commonly funding their activities by credit card fraud, especially when there are perfectly legal ways to pay for an account in-game via bot-generated ISK.
No, you miss the point. Pretending for the moment that I'm part of an RMT operation, and that I have access to stolen credit card data, why would I not fund my bots with a stolen credit card? The isk I would spend on plex is isk that I could sell, and the stolen credit card is free.

Because the credit card will very likely get cancelled and red-flag your botting account, which could otherwise have continued indefinitely via legal PLEX purchases. A PLEX probably takes less than a week (maybe a couple of days) of bot-time, giving you the rest of the month to stock your RMT catalogue, perfectly legally ... except for the botting part, which is a EULA violation but not credit card fraud.
I don't know, the economics still don't work out for me, but probably if I were the type who stole credit cards I'd think differently about a lot of things.


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