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Scott DTA
Gallente
Crystal Ship
Posted - 2011.06.11 00:13:00 - [1141]
 

The quotes I've been posting are from a mission running bot site, but they do also have mining capabilities, so not really sure if the bans are from mining or missions

Sala Kyss
Gallente
Ceptacemia
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.06.11 08:04:00 - [1142]
 

Edited by: Sala Kyss on 11/06/2011 08:06:04
Originally by: Cameron Freerunner
Originally by: Sala Kyss
The funniest thing is that the eve devs have a whole host of tools at their disposal, they just choose to ignore it or overlook it. I refuse to believe anyone that has the ability to develop a game like Eve can be so blind as to what botters are doing. Its not that hard to spot, and its not that hard to find them. What they need to realize is, are they willing to lose the majority of their legit customer base who get frustrated at this game which botters are ruining. Look at 0.0, half of it is owned by the DRF who are notoriously known for botting and RMT. The economy has already begun to feel the effects of 23/7 isk making. If things like this keep up, I smell the next Lineage 2 coming around.

It's amazing that so many smart people don't recognize what CCP is actually doing. They're doing what any law enforcement agency (or intelligence agency) would do. Roll-up the low level, non-professional botters with regular bans. Use the info gained to find and investigate links to professional botters, their websites, their resources, their chain of command, etc. Let them operate without hinderance or any clue that they're being investigated. Instigate sting operations to buy ISK OOG, log all info, watch the money move through the system. Since many of the RMT groups are in fact RL criminal operations (not that the RMT is itself illegal, but tax evasion, money laundering, credit card fraud and related crimes are), connect with RL law enforcement, lawyers/courts, and credit card companies to get access to more information (IPs, real names, etc). Move against them in RL with real legal authority.

CCP would have to be filled to the brim with morons if the majority of actions they took were aimed at banning bots and spending endless man-hours (which cost money btw) 'investigating' every ISK transaction or mining op in game. Even if it yielded botter bans, they'd be on an endless treadmill because the core problem is located in RL not the game.

Clearly all that isn't enough, as it is unlikely that the legal authorities in some countries are going to do anything. That's what the client coding initiatives and such are for. This isn't a one size fits all solution to botting. They're coming at it from every direction.

In the end, though, it's unlikely to remove botters from the game permanently. If they haven't already, botters will probably begin introducing random behaviors into their code. Stuff like moving to different belts, docking up for short periods of time, fake chats, using jump clones to setup several 'farms' of bots and moving between them regularly. If they were really smart, they'd be taking notes on people like ninjaspud and the other bot killers and introducing behaviors based on the appearance of those characters in local.

Its a losing battle really. But it can be fun to gank bots anyway.


Love the number of CCP suck-ups here...

Here's how you find bots:

1. Lets take a look at a OOG tool called Dotlan. Specifically, lets look at how many NPC kills were done in the last hour/24 hours.

2. Lets find out which people were in that system at the time.

3. Lets find out how many hours that account has been online and actively doing something.

4. Move into the system, observe behavior. Done.

Look at it from a logical point of view. No one is going to be online actively doing something for 23/7. Not humanly possible. And if they are and they aren't a bot, then they are account sharing and need to be banned anyway. 2 + 2 =/= FISH

Seriously, its not...that...hard. One salaried person could easily remove a majority of bots per week/month if all they did was sat down and busted bots. Hell I'd even volunteer for that position if they open it, watch the botting problem evaporate in a month or two.

They are also way too lenient on their botting punishments. 3x and you're out? One strike and gone, all that needs to be done.

Flardowell
Posted - 2011.06.11 08:12:00 - [1143]
 

Edited by: Flardowell on 11/06/2011 08:11:59
CCP, take notes, follow their links/reports, and publicly report your information as far as ppl banned, isk removed, etc. SHOW people you are making an effort, and you will get nothing but praise.

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/1013/detail.html

Adrian Idaho
Posted - 2011.06.11 08:57:00 - [1144]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
I'd like to quote IceHound from PD

Originally by: IceHound

just for ****s and giggles.... lets take a look at the TOS.

in my honest opinion, it seems that by using a bot, the player "may" be in violation of the second sentence of item 14, as well as the last half of item 21. but confirmation is dependent upon their definitions of tools and utilities. other then the definition, the botter really has no defense.

lets see if this bot grief channel and its baby seal clubbing fleet are violating anything...

item 1, first part: "You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player".
item 3: "You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies "

item 16: "You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules."

granted, using a bot nulls this item, but, from the not-botting players point of view, you have no way of knowing with any certainty, that the ship you are about to destroy is a bot, and not a player. you are only acting upon an educated guess, and nothing more.

i know, i know, its all "role play".

item 4: "You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules."

so i guess that defense is out.

it seems that the only real defense you have for these actions is being able to prove that the ship you are about to aggress is a bot. oh wait, you can't do that either, unless you are physically at his machine to see if a person is controlling things.



lol, what an idiot. The way he interprets the EULA would mean that any kind of non-consensual combat is griefing/harassment. Trying to use the license agreement he broke to protect himself... Rolling Eyes That guy is so fail.

Darcy D'Spledide
Posted - 2011.06.11 11:36:00 - [1145]
 

Originally by: Sala Kyss
lemme att'm!


Take out the bounty system, replace with bot flagging (searchable from the world map), CCP awards prizes to most kills.

It doesn't get all the bots, but it would be a start. It would also get more people interested in ending botting.

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.06.11 11:55:00 - [1146]
 

Originally by: Sala Kyss

Love the number of CCP suck-ups here...

Here's how you find bots:

1. Lets take a look at a OOG tool called Dotlan. Specifically, lets look at how many NPC kills were done in the last hour/24 hours.

2. Lets find out which people were in that system at the time.

3. Lets find out how many hours that account has been online and actively doing something.

4. Move into the system, observe behavior. Done.

Look at it from a logical point of view. No one is going to be online actively doing something for 23/7. Not humanly possible. And if they are and they aren't a bot, then they are account sharing and need to be banned anyway. 2 + 2 =/= FISH

Seriously, its not...that...hard. One salaried person could easily remove a majority of bots per week/month if all they did was sat down and busted bots. Hell I'd even volunteer for that position if they open it, watch the botting problem evaporate in a month or two.

They are also way too lenient on their botting punishments. 3x and you're out? One strike and gone, all that needs to be done.


love the number of people who talk about "how easy it is" without bothering to read the massive number of rebuttals to such posts....

to be fair, what you said is perfectly valid... only that it would take a massive investment of man-hours

Rosewalker
Minmatar
Khumaak Flying Circus
Posted - 2011.06.11 13:17:00 - [1147]
 

I don't even have to visit the botting sites to get quotes now. Here is one from a dissatisfied TM user that was left on my blog last night.

Originally by: Anonymous
TM is a 100% detectable fking piece of crap robot, and description on their site should sound like this instead "For over 3 years now, we sell a crap Tiny**** to our customers, always to be detected" :It's time to join the party"

all my EVE accounts (4) were banned for macro use and i used the tinycrap only with one account, never used on other 3... it's the first bot i ever used and i mined around 2-3 hour per day but not every day

in less than 10 days surprise... i got 14 days ban on all of my accounts i mined in a ghost system and to be reported by other player it's excluded it seems that CCP can detect this tiny**** robot when running on your PC

on their forum if you say something bad about the tinycrap or about banning the ADMIN will highly moderate this forum and severely cut the posts and also block your access to forum

don't be fooled

TM = 100% detectable piece of Tiny****


The edited words are from the forum's profanity filter. Apparently this was a very dissatisfied customer.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.11 14:18:00 - [1148]
 

Originally by: Arnakoz
to be fair, what you said is perfectly valid... only that it would take a massive investment of man-hours


I'm not sure it would actually. You could quite easily filter out casual ratters by logging their wallets (bounties).

Anyway it appears a better approach is being taken - well more direct anyway Very Happy

Mikk36
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.12 09:29:00 - [1149]
 

Just a thought: mark the bot characters, that you're sure of, with a specific bounty amount, say 38612. So you bring front the bounty indicator and check the bounty amount, see that it matches and you know that someone has marked the user as such.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:07:00 - [1150]
 

Originally by: Mikk36
Just a thought: mark the bot characters, that you're sure of, with a specific bounty amount, say 38612. So you bring front the bounty indicator and check the bounty amount, see that it matches and you know that someone has marked the user as such.



Players putting bounties on players that they suspect to be botters? I fail to see what that would achieve as a lot of players can't identify a bot from a legitimate player. Both ratting in asteroid belts and mining can seem like botting behaviour even when it's not, if the player sticks to a pattern. Best to leave it to CCP to sort out.

Sarah Tarith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:34:00 - [1151]
 

Edited by: Sarah Tarith on 12/06/2011 11:34:49
Originally by: Sala Kyss

They are also way too lenient on their botting punishments. 3x and you're out? One strike and gone, all that needs to be done.



This is not possible as of now.

CCP appear to have implemented a very efficient bot detection for known bots but have to resort to manual (and long) and error prone manual investigation for unknown bots.

Since CCP cannot blow up ships to see if pods keep warping belt <=> station, they use "common sense" heuristics that everyone may imagine: logged on amount of time, if you keep doing the same activity (i.e. mining) and so on.

The problem with this is: too many EvE legitimate content is made so bad that legitimate players HAVE to play like they are botting.
I.e. without blowing a ship / personal convoing it's totally impossible to reliably detect whether an ice mining guy is botting or not.

All you have got is the amount of log on time and there are indeed limit cases.

To bring my personal case, I have been banned exactly because of heuristics. The "one strike and gone" is crap, because in that case I could not even explain CCP what / when / how I did and defend my case.

Be careful calling bad karma on the other people, you never know it could turn back to you when you less expect.

Camron Champagne
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:44:00 - [1152]
 

Is there no way for CCP to alter the game so that GM's are able to start a private conversation that cannot be rejected or closed and pops up in a large Color shifting box in the center of the screen? Then perhaps follow that up with a email that has a new Email notification pop up that's 3x as large and in flashing randomized letters? Surely if there is no response to any of these and the person (bot) continues to preform an action after it's been contacted that would be a strong indicator of an issue to investigate.

Sarah Tarith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.06.12 12:19:00 - [1153]
 

Edited by: Sarah Tarith on 12/06/2011 12:20:12
Originally by: Camron Champagne
Is there no way for CCP to alter the game so that GM's are able to start a private conversation that cannot be rejected or closed and pops up in a large Color shifting box in the center of the screen? Then perhaps follow that up with a email that has a new Email notification pop up that's 3x as large and in flashing randomized letters? Surely if there is no response to any of these and the person (bot) continues to preform an action after it's been contacted that would be a strong indicator of an issue to investigate.


It'd certainly be a good start, but still insufficient.
When I mined, I'd go to lunch / dinner leaving the ships in the belt / in station for 1 hour doing nothing (*). A bot would have kept mining instead. But with your solution, a CCP employee would convo me / anyone who does not log off during meals and would find no reply for 1 hour because I was dining.


(*) Payware connection, 1 hour idle ship costs 100k bandwidth, each log in is 1-2 MB of download.

Katra Novac
Posted - 2011.06.12 12:21:00 - [1154]
 

Originally by: Camron Champagne
Is there no way for CCP to alter the game so that GM's are able to start a private conversation that cannot be rejected or closed and pops up in a large Color shifting box in the center of the screen? Then perhaps follow that up with a email that has a new Email notification pop up that's 3x as large and in flashing randomized letters? Surely if there is no response to any of these and the person (bot) continues to preform an action after it's been contacted that would be a strong indicator of an issue to investigate.



If you're mining and you keep getting boxes flashing up on your screen, you will soon get fed up with them.

A lot of miners semi-afk anyway, because of the nature of mining in this game. When I used to mine in a hulk which had cargo expanders on it, I'd read a book at the same time as it's better to do that than sit watching your mining lasers for over 10 minutes at a time whilst the hulk fills up.

Scott DTA
Gallente
Crystal Ship
Posted - 2011.06.12 22:30:00 - [1155]
 

Originally by: Stafani
I had 2 accounts mining just more than 10 hours a day, built in breaks. Both were banned for 2 weeks. At the time, I had custom hot keys, but did not do anything else custom. The iskies were transferred to a corp instead of the other characters. Everything went to the corp hangar. These items were safe as were the other 3 accounts I run (Don't bot on them though)

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.13 01:29:00 - [1156]
 

Originally by: Sarah Tarith
Edited by: Sarah Tarith on 12/06/2011 11:34:49
Originally by: Sala Kyss

They are also way too lenient on their botting punishments. 3x and you're out? One strike and gone, all that needs to be done.



This is not possible as of now.

CCP appear to have implemented a very efficient bot detection for known bots but have to resort to manual (and long) and error prone manual investigation for unknown bots.


This is why experienced bot hunters take forever and a day to spot a botter. Some people will say that it's easy as pie to catch a botter, but that's an inaccurate assessment of how much effort it truly takes.

First off, there are several kinds of bots: mission bots, mining bots, market bots, PI bots, belt-rat bots, and hauler bots. Second, how you find these bots depends on whether the person using them is competent or not (smart users of bots are much harder to detect). Third, you need as much intel as possible as to how certain bot programs operate. If you are lucky, you might have run into a disgruntled bot user who no longer bots and therefore provide critical intel on the bot's weaknesses.

And finally, observation. This is the hard part. It usually lasts for no less than a week and that's just to narrow down the suspects. If you have the critical intel on how a certain bot works and what's incapable of doing, it shouldn't take too long to catch a botter. If you have no intel at all, then your observations will take a long time. Either way, you will be taking extensive notes and you'll be staring at the 17" widescreen monitor for hours on end trying to catch anything suspicious. And you will be doing this until you have a very high level of certainty that your suspect is a bot.

I know, it's a boring process. But I'm pretty sure that CCP is doing the same thing along with the advanced tools that they have to make sure they don't ban the wrong people. It's like forensic science: you leave no stone unturned (even if the stone is the size of a strand of human hair).

Sarah Tarith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.06.13 07:38:00 - [1157]
 

Edited by: Sarah Tarith on 13/06/2011 07:39:06
Originally by: Henry Haphorn

I know, it's a boring process. But I'm pretty sure that CCP is doing the same thing along with the advanced tools that they have to make sure they don't ban the wrong people. It's like forensic science: you leave no stone unturned (even if the stone is the size of a strand of human hair).


Sadly, the tools are not advanced enough yet. I am going to try and convince the GM that is following my ban case (I am unbanned since weeks but want to help CCP) to let me talk with the guy(s) who implement their filters. There are some rare cases (like mine Crying or Very sad) where I know myself I will raise all the red flags despite not botting but there are 2-3 objective additional filters (i.e. logs meausurable things done that bots would not do) that would cover even them.
It's still a very uphill battle, the "perma ban at first sight" approach would be far too dangerous. Maybe it could be done for 100% recognized botting software but even then, who can guarantee no single application out of millions out there couldn't generate a false positive? The current policy is still the most balanced imho.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.06.13 15:38:00 - [1158]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 13/06/2011 15:38:28
Hey guys, I know there hasn't been much of an update here lately. My energies have been devoted to our websites and coordinating our efforts in game and I have neglected checking on the bot websites.

and boy have I missed alot, Time for the part we all love, bot tears.

Tiny Miner seems to be running good still, but Eve pilot is taking a beating. I found a thread in EP forums called "banned". I thought it was an old one, but then I learned the first post was 4 days ago...and the thread is almost 5 pages deep. Here's some quotes of whats going down w/ EP.

Originally by: nWire

Hi All,

i have 2 Hulk Charakters on 2 Accounts in 2 Systems.

after the downtime i will login, acc banned for 2 weeks " using macro "

my bots dont run 23/7, i have bio times intregratet.


....

all my 4 accs are banned for 2 weeks, i die!




Originally by: Shadowminers


Same here, even the the account that only tried EVEtrader out for 30 minutes



This is a big one guys, Eve trader is a market bot. many of you have asked if ccp is targeting market bots...and this proves that yes they are.

Originally by: jagriffiths81


Same here all my accounts banned. Do we have a problem?????



all those where taken from page 1....here's more

Originally by: artinE

I have 5 accounts running 3 bots on only 3 of the accounts and all 5 were banned I submited a petition for the accounts that i did not use for botting. I sure hope they will unban them



Originally by: Tin Tin

9 accounts

6 bots in VMware, banned. other 3 accounts are my main and 2 support toons that do the refining, hauling and selling of products. Station trades for ore and normal direct transfer of isk between toons.




It has been a while since a string of banning like this has happened. This could be an indication that CCP has targeted EP next. Time will tell...

As for the other end of the front line, I am still asking for recruits to join the Bot Grief channel. We grow more and more every day, and are starting to have enough people to be able to split up teh work per region. So if you run missions outside of amarr, and don't wanna jump to rens to help gank, we'll soon have a local chapter set up close to you.

We have a ship replacement program, as well as a status regain program. So ganking won't cost you a dime...and if you use insurance, you'll make money. All I'm asking is that the people posting here, also help out in our cause. 1 or 2 ganks a week (fallowed by status regain)per person will make a huge difference.

If we get enough people we're going to start hitting null sec ratters as well. Who wants in on a carrier kill? Twisted EvilTwisted Evil

Jake Rivers
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:02:00 - [1159]
 

Carrier Bots are the most Tasty Bots:

http://killboard.splitinfinityalliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3362

Check out that fit!

raney ilara
Posted - 2011.06.13 20:45:00 - [1160]
 

Quote:
Look at it from a logical point of view. No one is going to be online actively doing something for 23/7.


While this would seem to be logical, the truth is I'm often on close to 21/7. I am a house-wife who mines without bots while I'm cooking or doing laundry or many other tasks. I have my laptop with me most of the time.

yes, if I get tired I do log off but many times I never get tired. I sleep about 3 or 4 hours a night.

P.S. I'm also an intel officer who spends a great deal of time cloaked gathering information on traffic and war-targets. I'm never afk for more than about a minute at a time.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:25:00 - [1161]
 

Originally by: raney ilara
Quote:
Look at it from a logical point of view. No one is going to be online actively doing something for 23/7.


While this would seem to be logical, the truth is I'm often on close to 21/7. I am a house-wife who mines without bots while I'm cooking or doing laundry or many other tasks. I have my laptop with me most of the time.

yes, if I get tired I do log off but many times I never get tired. I sleep about 3 or 4 hours a night.

P.S. I'm also an intel officer who spends a great deal of time cloaked gathering information on traffic and war-targets. I'm never afk for more than about a minute at a time.


From what I see, you should be ok.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.06.13 22:11:00 - [1162]
 

Originally by: Jake Rivers
Carrier Bots are the most Tasty Bots:

http://killboard.splitinfinityalliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3362

Check out that fit!


o wow, no self respecting carrier pilot would do that lol

Jake Rivers, we need to talk YARRRR!!

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.06.15 00:33:00 - [1163]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
Originally by: Jake Rivers
Carrier Bots are the most Tasty Bots:

http://killboard.splitinfinityalliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3362

Check out that fit!


o wow, no self respecting carrier pilot would do that lol

Jake Rivers, we need to talk YARRRR!!

I'm no carrier pilot... so on a scale of 1-10 (1 bad, 10 great) how terrible is that fit?

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.06.15 02:14:00 - [1164]
 

Also, friendly bump to counteract all the spam on page 1... and 2.

sertyj
Posted - 2011.06.15 02:34:00 - [1165]
 

Please continue the discussion in this forum thread

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.06.15 03:27:00 - [1166]
 

Originally by: sertyj
Please continue the discussion in this forum thread

Quiet you!!!

Hey Ninja (and crew), anything on the bot forums about what happened today?

Samillian
Posted - 2011.06.15 12:27:00 - [1167]
 

Bump

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.06.15 12:50:00 - [1168]
 

A few tears:

TinTin: 6 bots in VMware, banned. other 3 accounts are my main and 2 support toons that do the refining, hauling and selling of products. Station trades for ore and normal direct transfer of isk between toons.

Did not rename anything and used default locations. I did bridge connections in vmware to get unique mac address for bots, might be what saved my main + support toons.

artinE: (Did you transfer the isk off before you were banned) Not directly I put the isk in a corp and then move it or buy stuff and contract it over but that is all BS they will know all they have to do is run a select on SQL and find where the money went and how it was spent. so there is no way to hide what you do. You can run it through alot of people but it can be followed. I did do something stupid I paused the bot and ran my main account while the bot was paused. So I think they are looking in the running processes and banning every account that has the bot running in the background. I say this because my main account is not even a miner I only PVP with it.

These items were safe as were the other 3 accounts I run (Don't bot on them though)


Minerdude: CCP is monitoring your connection IP. It does not matter what you use the account for, as they look at all accounts connecting by IP. If you share the same router or modem, you use the same IP for all accounts regardless of what you use them for.

I have recently connected with 4 accounts, set the miners in place and manually transfered ore since the process slow. Then hauled with the 4th account. Just taunting CCP to see if I get a response using 4 accounts w/o a bot

Stafani: I had 2 accounts mining just more than 10 hours a day, built in breaks. Both were banned for 2 weeks. At the time, I had custom hot keys, but did not do anything else custom. The iskies were transferred to a corp instead of the other characters. Everything went to the corp hangar.

Slav2: What I may observe is that people who got banned used several bots on the same computer. Even if you make built in breaks and total working time less then 10h per bot, statistics per computer may be not good. I think CCP started to record computer ID rather then IP, so using router and several VMWare with bridged connection (when each VMWare has separated local IP) should solve the problem.

Memorya
Posted - 2011.06.15 13:18:00 - [1169]
 

Edited by: Memorya on 15/06/2011 13:18:17

"IF" CCP bans every single RTM'er and boters, next day CCP closes down. You like it or not, thats how it goes and thats why they will never ever ban all bot's, becouse they need MONEY.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.15 13:22:00 - [1170]
 

Originally by: Memorya
Edited by: Memorya on 15/06/2011 13:18:17

"IF" CCP bans every single RTM'er and boters, next day CCP closes down. You like it or not, thats how it goes and thats why they will never ever ban all bot's, becouse they need MONEY.


Cool. You'll be gone then and that can only improve things Neutral


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