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ISquishWorms
Posted - 2011.05.31 21:45:00 - [1021]
 

Edited by: ISquishWorms on 31/05/2011 21:45:44
Originally by: David Hassan
Not sure it needed a new thread and this seemed like a good place.

So the eve source code has been in circulation for some time now. This probably explains perpetuum online. There are now rumors that the server side code has been leaked. This would suggest that there is a rat in your house CCP, one of your Devs is providing this code, most likely to RMT traders. If it is not corruption, then it is outright incompetence on having code that is so easily decompiled.

Any plans on securing your product any time soon? If has been getting cracked for years now. The botters are a step ahead of you. All of this makes participating in your sandbox rather pointless.


I could not agree more. Should security not take precedence over flashy graphics? The priority CCP seem to of given these confusticate me. I thought the number one priority should always be security & safety over anything else. Also I have been reading that our accounts were infact put at risk by the forum disaster despite what we were told.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.31 22:40:00 - [1022]
 

Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Action is perfect proper for an ongoing activity, and not a single deed.


In the same way that your English teacher learned you English proper like.

i.e.: not at all :)

"Action" is a noun. You can talk about the military action in Afghanistan, the ongoing action against the proliferation of carebears, or the action that was taken to resolve T3 ships flying backwards.

But you still cannot "action" that agenda item. It may well be an "action item" (an item which requires action to be taken), but it is at best an item that requires action.

Quote:
Iurnan Mileghere should note, however, that 'Verbizing' does not exist in Queen's English, at least in the Old Country we use 'Verbalising'.



Verbizing is an invented word which serves to illustrate the crime that it is describing. Consider it a form of ironic expression.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.31 22:43:00 - [1023]
 

Originally by: ISquishWorms
I thought the number one priority should always be security & safety over anything else. Also I have been reading that our accounts were infact put at risk by the forum disaster despite what we were told.


Not your accounts, just your personal computer.

Ultimate security involves turning off your computer and unplugging it, putting it back in the box and returning it to the place of purchase. Nothing can go wrong with a device you don't even have.

Brujo Loco
Amarr
Brujeria Teologica
Posted - 2011.05.31 23:10:00 - [1024]
 

After reading some of the pages and specially the TLDR version of OP I must say I'm impressed by CCP. Botting has always been a bane of most MMO's and seeing CCP taking care of this is a marvelous sight to my eyes. Despite the naysayers and people out there berating EVE for x or y reason , it and the company itself CCP have proven to me through all the years I have been a loyal subber (since 2005) that unlike many other companies, they actually care for their product.

I have had my own set of personal quarrels with some of their moves during the years and I have hated some decisions on their part, but overall, despite their huge boom into an almost anonymous big corporation, somewhere along the twisting passageways of the CCP offices, there exists still the core spirit, even if sharded, of the original CCP Dev Team and Leaders.

I just keep hoping that CCP will eventually create better tools to secure their source code, examine bot program routines and drop the banhammer on the people that slowly destroy the game we love and in which we have invested time of our very own life.

I salute you guys, and keep up the good work <3 CCP , they always bring me back for another year long sub despite some of the changes in direction, philosophy and business models, they always retain some of the core flavor of the original game.

Never lose perspective guys, its what makes EVE the game it is.

o7

ISquishWorms
Posted - 2011.05.31 23:16:00 - [1025]
 

Edited by: ISquishWorms on 31/05/2011 23:18:06
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: ISquishWorms
I thought the number one priority should always be security & safety over anything else. Also I have been reading that our accounts were infact put at risk by the forum disaster despite what we were told.


Not your accounts, just your personal computer.

Ultimate security involves turning off your computer and unplugging it, putting it back in the box and returning it to the place of purchase. Nothing can go wrong with a device you don't even have.



If my computer was put at risk (for exmaple malcious code could be run on it without my say so) then my accounts not just my eve account were put at risk.

Sure I realise that we all take risks everyday not just when using a computer but we try and keep these to a minimum (simply stating that turning off my computer is the answer is well nothing short of a weak answer/solution).

It was CCP's forum and the way they implemented it that put my computer at risk in this particular case and therefore it is their responsibility to address that issue and inform those who were exposed as to its full ramifying implications. I do not agree simply saying that no accounts were put at risk was a full disclosure. The article that I have seen also states that CCP were made aware of the issue even before they made the decision to roll out the forums which is extremely worrying if this statement is true.

I will say again more emphasis on security and making that a priority over things like flash graphics would seem sensible to me.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.31 23:33:00 - [1026]
 

Guys, seriously. If you want to talk about English grammar or composition, there is always the opportunity to create a separate thread for that. Therefore, there should be no reason why we are debating about the use of the word "action" in a threadnaught that is strictly about the front line in the war against bots.

Anyways, I have been doing my part so far to track down bots in my area. So far, our efforts are slowly expanding and our attacks are becoming more precise as we coordinate more efficiently. Petitions have been created and our support is increasing as the resolve of the capsuleers grows.

***Attention Botters***

You will never take Eve Online away from us hard-working pod pilots.
You will never succeed in destroying our economy.
You will never fool us with your silly attempts at misinformation.

You will be hunted where ever you go.
You will be granted no mercy.
You will die a slow death as the anti-bot war grinds you to dust.

Of course, you can provide us your tears.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.01 00:20:00 - [1027]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 03/06/2011 01:01:29

This has been a very interesting thread. Thanks to Ninja for his tireless work bringing it to us.

For months I've been tracking a huge group of mission botters flying through my system day and night, hundreds of them with the same naming and corp naming scheme. I have screen shots of them, all their names and corps. Clearly they were all part of the same group even though they were all each in their own corp of one. I figured that the new botting protocal for some reason ignored them.

I was just getting ready to finally report them this week when they are all gone for the first time in months. Could it be that CCP took action against mission botting finally? I'd like to think so. I'm crossing my fingers that they are gone but today is patch day..maybe they are just slow getting up and running.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.01 00:33:00 - [1028]
 

1: To Action something may not be strictly proper, however the fact remains it is a commonly used term in corporate lingo.

2: CCP Sreegs works for a corporation.

3: This debate over the use of "action" is completely pointless.

4: @ Speaker4theDead: People derive enjoyment from EVE in a number of ways. If people wish to (and enjoy) focus(ing) on botters because they feel that they are responsible for having a detrimental effect on the game overall, they are completely within their rights to do so. In short, nobody particularly cares what you think.

5: @ ISquishWorms: If you have proof that user accounts were put at risk by the security flaws discovered in the new forum, post that proof. If you believe you have found an article that has said proof, post a link. Rumors are worth literally nothing, proof will lend credence to your words.

6: Lets try to steer this ship back on course.

ISquishWorms
Posted - 2011.06.01 00:56:00 - [1029]
 

Edited by: ISquishWorms on 01/06/2011 00:58:12
Originally by: Ranger 1
1: To Action something may not be strictly proper, however the fact remains it is a commonly used term in corporate lingo.

2: CCP Sreegs works for a corporation.

3: This debate over the use of "action" is completely pointless.

4: @ Speaker4theDead: People derive enjoyment from EVE in a number of ways. If people wish to (and enjoy) focus(ing) on botters because they feel that they are responsible for having a detrimental effect on the game overall, they are completely within their rights to do so. In short, nobody particularly cares what you think.

5: @ ISquishWorms: If you have proof that user accounts were put at risk by the security flaws discovered in the new forum, post that proof. If you believe you have found an article that has said proof, post a link. Rumors are worth literally nothing, proof will lend credence to your words.

6: Lets try to steer this ship back on course.



I am not sure if it is ok to link it here so google evenews24 and look at the article titled: The Cosmopewlitan: Welcome to two months ago Faceless leakers, CCP and the Eve Source Code.

Also be sure to check out the links this article links to as more info is available on those. If you follow the links there is info not just about the fact that the code is relatively easy to decompile and make changes to but also info about the new forum's that got closed down.

David Hassan
Posted - 2011.06.01 01:09:00 - [1030]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn
Guys, seriously. If you want to talk about English grammar or composition, there is always the opportunity to create a separate thread for that. Therefore, there should be no reason why we are debating about the use of the word "action" in a threadnaught that is strictly about the front line in the war against bots.

Anyways, I have been doing my part so far to track down bots in my area. So far, our efforts are slowly expanding and our attacks are becoming more precise as we coordinate more efficiently. Petitions have been created and our support is increasing as the resolve of the capsuleers grows.

***Attention Botters***

You will never take Eve Online away from us hard-working pod pilots.
You will never succeed in destroying our economy.
You will never fool us with your silly attempts at misinformation.

You will be hunted where ever you go.
You will be granted no mercy.
You will die a slow death as the anti-bot war grinds you to dust.

Of course, you can provide us your tears.


They already have taken over the game. They are highly organized and can write better code than CCP. It's to the point now that I'm convinced certain dev's are getting kickbacks with some of the game play changes they have been making.

Jefferson H Clay
Posted - 2011.06.01 01:10:00 - [1031]
 

Originally by: Sarah Tarith

See, once I'd agreed with you. I was even more radical, I was for instant deletion of assets, perma ban at the second attempt at botting and so on.

Then something happened and I have seen myself banned out of the blue.


Yep. Dude where's my Titan?

Which isn't saying that alliances bot, but that if you were to go through the SQL transaction logs you could chase every chunk of ore mined by a bot, its subsequent sale, refinment and then the ships and modules it was used to construct.

Calling for assets to be confiscated is all well and good but at some point you need to declare it game over and that asset clean otherwise you end up with "Well, 1 unit of trit in that Avatar came from this bot 4 years ago via this route. *poof*"

Unless you mined it, refined it and used a BP you brought to build it, you've no idea where all that came from.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.01 01:47:00 - [1032]
 

Originally by: ISquishWorms
Edited by: ISquishWorms on 01/06/2011 00:58:12
Originally by: Ranger 1
1: To Action something may not be strictly proper, however the fact remains it is a commonly used term in corporate lingo.

2: CCP Sreegs works for a corporation.

3: This debate over the use of "action" is completely pointless.

4: @ Speaker4theDead: People derive enjoyment from EVE in a number of ways. If people wish to (and enjoy) focus(ing) on botters because they feel that they are responsible for having a detrimental effect on the game overall, they are completely within their rights to do so. In short, nobody particularly cares what you think.

5: @ ISquishWorms: If you have proof that user accounts were put at risk by the security flaws discovered in the new forum, post that proof. If you believe you have found an article that has said proof, post a link. Rumors are worth literally nothing, proof will lend credence to your words.

6: Lets try to steer this ship back on course.



I am not sure if it is ok to link it here so google evenews24 and look at the article titled: The Cosmopewlitan: Welcome to two months ago Faceless leakers, CCP and the Eve Source Code.

Also be sure to check out the links this article links to as more info is available on those. If you follow the links there is info not just about the fact that the code is relatively easy to decompile and make changes to but also info about the new forum's that got closed down.


Thank you for, in good faith, posting the source of your concerns.

Although that article deals with a different issue entirely, I did follow the link contained to the article in question concerning the new forum code. I didn't really find any new information there, to be quite honest. All of what was posted in that article has be hashed and rehashed on these forums already. To nutshell it, while more sensitive information "potentially" could have been compromised by the client being duped into revealing that information, it didn't happen. There were safeguards in place to prevent the execution of that code, and there has been no indication (unless I've missed something over the last few weeks) that indicates any suspect code that would have led to account information being revealed was successfully run. The blogs are out there.

As to the separate source code issue, as the article states, this is old news. To what extent the server source code has been unraveled is anyone's guess, but CCP was perfectly correct in having them pull even relatively harmless (and more easily decompiled) bits of code from the site. Every software company has to deal with this sort of thing at one point in time or another. In fact, injecting code into Python has been done successfully before. It was also detected and stopped.

I'm not going to say that putting an emphasis on security is a bad thing. In fact it's pretty apparent that CCP agrees with that sentiment completely. Just try not to listen to every half informed rumor that manages to find it's way into print on the internet. It is rarely the whole story.

Anyway, enough derailment.

ISquishWorms
Posted - 2011.06.01 02:03:00 - [1033]
 

Edited by: ISquishWorms on 01/06/2011 02:03:46
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: ISquishWorms
Edited by: ISquishWorms on 01/06/2011 00:58:12
Originally by: Ranger 1
1: To Action something may not be strictly proper, however the fact remains it is a commonly used term in corporate lingo.

2: CCP Sreegs works for a corporation.

3: This debate over the use of "action" is completely pointless.

4: @ Speaker4theDead: People derive enjoyment from EVE in a number of ways. If people wish to (and enjoy) focus(ing) on botters because they feel that they are responsible for having a detrimental effect on the game overall, they are completely within their rights to do so. In short, nobody particularly cares what you think.

5: @ ISquishWorms: If you have proof that user accounts were put at risk by the security flaws discovered in the new forum, post that proof. If you believe you have found an article that has said proof, post a link. Rumors are worth literally nothing, proof will lend credence to your words.

6: Lets try to steer this ship back on course.



I am not sure if it is ok to link it here so google evenews24 and look at the article titled: The Cosmopewlitan: Welcome to two months ago Faceless leakers, CCP and the Eve Source Code.

Also be sure to check out the links this article links to as more info is available on those. If you follow the links there is info not just about the fact that the code is relatively easy to decompile and make changes to but also info about the new forum's that got closed down.


Thank you for, in good faith, posting the source of your concerns.

Although that article deals with a different issue entirely, I did follow the link contained to the article in question concerning the new forum code. I didn't really find any new information there, to be quite honest. All of what was posted in that article has be hashed and rehashed on these forums already. To nutshell it, while more sensitive information "potentially" could have been compromised by the client being duped into revealing that information, it didn't happen. There were safeguards in place to prevent the execution of that code, and there has been no indication (unless I've missed something over the last few weeks) that indicates any suspect code that would have led to account information being revealed was successfully run. The blogs are out there.

As to the separate source code issue, as the article states, this is old news. To what extent the server source code has been unraveled is anyone's guess, but CCP was perfectly correct in having them pull even relatively harmless (and more easily decompiled) bits of code from the site. Every software company has to deal with this sort of thing at one point in time or another. In fact, injecting code into Python has been done successfully before. It was also detected and stopped.

I'm not going to say that putting an emphasis on security is a bad thing. In fact it's pretty apparent that CCP agrees with that sentiment completely. Just try not to listen to every half informed rumor that manages to find it's way into print on the internet. It is rarely the whole story.

Anyway, enough derailment.


This is a bit of CCP say they say but who are we to beleive?

I have to say CCP have not instilled any faith in me of late as they are busy working on their flashy graphics while their code can still be decompiled (which as you point out is not anything new) and in their own words from a recent podcast this in turn would make it easier to develop exploits etc. True other software companies have to deal with this kind of thing as well but they at least tackle it. As you said in the article this is old news and yet nothing has been done about it years on and that is my concern.

NOVA-STAR
Posted - 2011.06.01 02:10:00 - [1034]
 

Interrupting this thread. This is real I did laugh abit, then I heard the part about their punishment of they failed to farm ISK..

Gold-Farming in a Chinese forced-labor camp

(source)


The Guardian reports that prisoners in a Chinese forced-labor camp were required to "gold-farm" in multiplayer games such as World of Warcraft, EVE:Online, Farmville, amassing credits and virtual objects that the guards could sell to other players for real currency.

"Prison bosses made more money forcing inmates to play games than they do forcing people to do manual labour," Liu told the Guardian. "There were 300 prisoners forced to play games. We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp. I heard them say they could earn 5,000-6,000rmb [470-570] a day. We didn't see any of the money. The computers were never turned off."

But it was the forced online gaming that was the most surreal part of his imprisonment. The hard slog may have been virtual, but the punishment for falling behind was real.

"If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.

Kieser Report, RT - Commenting on the Article Above

(source: Youtube @ 03:25)


Stacy Herbert: They force these Chinese prisoners to play multiplayer games amassing credits and virtual objects, and forcing the prisoners to hand over the virtual items for real cash.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.06.01 02:18:00 - [1035]
 

And this is the point we send spec ops teams in to remove those guards from existence.Twisted Evil

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.01 02:21:00 - [1036]
 

Originally by: NOVA-STAR
Interrupting this thread. This is real I did laugh abit, then I heard the part about their punishment of they failed to farm ISK..

Gold-Farming in a Chinese forced-labor camp

(source)


The Guardian reports that prisoners in a Chinese forced-labor camp were required to "gold-farm" in multiplayer games such as World of Warcraft, EVE:Online, Farmville, amassing credits and virtual objects that the guards could sell to other players for real currency.

"Prison bosses made more money forcing inmates to play games than they do forcing people to do manual labour," Liu told the Guardian. "There were 300 prisoners forced to play games. We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp. I heard them say they could earn 5,000-6,000rmb [470-570] a day. We didn't see any of the money. The computers were never turned off."

But it was the forced online gaming that was the most surreal part of his imprisonment. The hard slog may have been virtual, but the punishment for falling behind was real.

"If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.

Kieser Report, RT - Commenting on the Article Above

(source: Youtube @ 03:25)


Stacy Herbert: They force these Chinese prisoners to play multiplayer games amassing credits and virtual objects, and forcing the prisoners to hand over the virtual items for real cash.


All the more reason to disable their ability to use our game as a means to this end.

@ ISquishWorms: "As you said in the article this is old news and yet nothing has been done about it years on and that is my concern."

What on earth has led you to this conclusion? EVEs security protocols have not, and will not ever, be discussed with the general public. Any instances that have come to light of the EVE code being tampered with have been caught and dealt with. That is the reality of it, all else is supposition inserted in place of fact. Next thing you know you are going to find yourself refusing to do bank transactions or online purchases due to unfounded paranoia. Yes, occasionally security protocols fail and credit card information is exposed. It is more likely that you will be mugged in an alley or your house will be broken into and your credit card physically stolen. Shall we resort to the barter system until all possible risk is eliminated? (Even then, someone would likely steal your Ox while you slept). Wink

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.06.01 07:54:00 - [1037]
 

Originally by: David Hassan
Not sure it needed a new thread and this seemed like a good place.


no not needed and not really
Quote:

So the eve source code has been in circulation for some time now.


no it hasn't - this is decompiled python - it happens not just for eve, and is fairly regular - just don't touch it
Quote:
This probably explains perpetuum online.


no don't think so
Quote:
There are now rumors that the server side code has been leaked.


always rumours - when in doubt spread FUD
Quote:
This would suggest that there is a rat in your house CCP, one of your Devs is providing this code, most likely to RMT traders.


see above
Quote:
If it is not corruption, then it is outright incompetence on having code that is so easily decompiled.


see above, and - decompiling is not leaking stuff, it is decompiling - it's fairly easy really
Quote:


Any plans on securing your product any time soon? If has been getting cracked for years now. The botters are a step ahead of you. All of this makes participating in your sandbox rather pointless.

again FUD

remember when HL2 source code got leaked - that was everything ... that killed HL2 didn't it

ISquishWorms
Posted - 2011.06.01 11:56:00 - [1038]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1


@ ISquishWorms: "As you said in the article this is old news and yet nothing has been done about it years on and that is my concern."

What on earth has led you to this conclusion? EVEs security protocols have not, and will not ever, be discussed with the general public. Any instances that have come to light of the EVE code being tampered with have been caught and dealt with. That is the reality of it, all else is supposition inserted in place of fact. Next thing you know you are going to find yourself refusing to do bank transactions or online purchases due to unfounded paranoia. Yes, occasionally security protocols fail and credit card information is exposed. It is more likely that you will be mugged in an alley or your house will be broken into and your credit card physically stolen. Shall we resort to the barter system until all possible risk is eliminated? (Even then, someone would likely steal your Ox while you slept). Wink


The difference being is that once the problem is exposed the companies will tend to deal with that issue within just a few months. CCP have known their code can be easily decompiled and have admitted that this does therefore make it easier for exploits etc to be developed (in a recent potcast) which only makes sense. Yet still nothing has been done to address this issue years down the line. I have no problem using bank transactions and the like as I know that any security issues discovered will be dealt with in a prompt and professional manner and given top priority. From what I see priority is given to flashy graphics and improving the UI rather than improving the security of their code.

What has led me to this conclusion? Well I have to say the article(s) that I have already mentioned on evenews24. Like I said yes its CCP's word against those that exposed these flaws but who are we to believe. CCP could really help convince us that they have our security concerns at heart and care by addressing these issues and giving them priority.

As for unfounded paranoia. It would only be unfounded paranoia if their code was not as easy as it is to decompile and if this did not in turn make it easier to develop exploits but it does and was admitted on a recent podcast.

Llyandrian
Amarr
Livestock Science Exchange
Posted - 2011.06.01 13:16:00 - [1039]
 

Edited by: Llyandrian on 01/06/2011 13:23:20
Oh my dear, I was being playful but your scorn is misplaced and arrogance ill-conceived.

Originally by: Mara Rinn

"Action" is a noun.



You are wrong. Action has also been used as a transitive verb for hundreds of years.

English grammar is determined by widely recognised and documented usage, it is not a language determined by diktat. Not even Fowler would have been so bold, his Dictionary is of Modern English Usage.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.01 13:47:00 - [1040]
 

Originally by: ISquishWorms
Originally by: Ranger 1


@ ISquishWorms: "As you said in the article this is old news and yet nothing has been done about it years on and that is my concern."

What on earth has led you to this conclusion? EVEs security protocols have not, and will not ever, be discussed with the general public. Any instances that have come to light of the EVE code being tampered with have been caught and dealt with. That is the reality of it, all else is supposition inserted in place of fact. Next thing you know you are going to find yourself refusing to do bank transactions or online purchases due to unfounded paranoia. Yes, occasionally security protocols fail and credit card information is exposed. It is more likely that you will be mugged in an alley or your house will be broken into and your credit card physically stolen. Shall we resort to the barter system until all possible risk is eliminated? (Even then, someone would likely steal your Ox while you slept). Wink


The difference being is that once the problem is exposed the companies will tend to deal with that issue within just a few months. CCP have known their code can be easily decompiled and have admitted that this does therefore make it easier for exploits etc to be developed (in a recent potcast) which only makes sense. Yet still nothing has been done to address this issue years down the line. I have no problem using bank transactions and the like as I know that any security issues discovered will be dealt with in a prompt and professional manner and given top priority. From what I see priority is given to flashy graphics and improving the UI rather than improving the security of their code.

What has led me to this conclusion? Well I have to say the article(s) that I have already mentioned on evenews24. Like I said yes its CCP's word against those that exposed these flaws but who are we to believe. CCP could really help convince us that they have our security concerns at heart and care by addressing these issues and giving them priority.

As for unfounded paranoia. It would only be unfounded paranoia if their code was not as easy as it is to decompile and if this did not in turn make it easier to develop exploits but it does and was admitted on a recent podcast.


You make a habit out of making assumptions based on... nothing.

You are going to have to face certain facts.

1: Python is not that difficult to decompile.

2: The act of doing this in itself compromises nothing.

3: There are layers to software security beyond the fact that it is "compiled".

4: You are not, and never will be, privy to information concerning what security CCP uses to protect their code. Because you are not aware of the details of something, you assume it doesn't exist. this is a fairly absurd way of thinking.

5: You need to use a bit more common sense and stop allowing yourself to be swept along by questionable fan sites and the hysteria they like to generate to call attention to themselves.

Maximillian Dragonard
Posted - 2011.06.01 15:31:00 - [1041]
 

Keeping this on page 1 Smile

ILikeMarkets
Posted - 2011.06.01 16:08:00 - [1042]
 

Originally by: Llyandrian
Edited by: Llyandrian on 01/06/2011 13:23:20
Oh my dear, I was being playful but your scorn is misplaced and arrogance ill-conceived.

Originally by: Mara Rinn

"Action" is a noun.



You are wrong. Action has also been used as a transitive verb for hundreds of years.

English grammar is determined by widely recognised and documented usage, it is not a language determined by diktat. Not even Fowler would have been so bold, his Dictionary is of Modern English Usage.




Wait, what? You answered that a little vaguely. Saying "You are wrong" means the word "action" cannot be taken as a noun. That is incorrect. There is really only 1 case where action could be taken as a transitive verb, and it is hardly used in common speech. The majority usage of the word "action" is noun. I'm sure you realize this all well enough, but the way you answered that quote is VERY misleading as to what you do and don't understand about the usage of the word.


ISquishWorms
Posted - 2011.06.01 16:20:00 - [1043]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
You make a habit out of making assumptions based on... nothing.

You are going to have to face certain facts.

1: Python is not that difficult to decompile.

2: The act of doing this in itself compromises nothing.

3: There are layers to software security beyond the fact that it is "compiled".

4: You are not, and never will be, privy to information concerning what security CCP uses to protect their code. Because you are not aware of the details of something, you assume it doesn't exist. this is a fairly absurd way of thinking.

5: You need to use a bit more common sense and stop allowing yourself to be swept along by questionable fan sites and the hysteria they like to generate to call attention to themselves.


What is it you don't understand or are you not reading? Or are you just choosing to ignore what I am saying?

CCP themselves (I think Sreegs but I can't recall for sure) admitted on a recent podcast that the fact their code can be easily decompiled will make it easier to develop exploits etc for. Surely anybody can understand this and appreciate that this has to be true? He did say that it was no easier than it was years ago but does that make it right that it is still possible and just as easy? If something is easy to read this in turn makes it easier to amend, change and use in malicious ways.

Can you imagine the chaos to use a point you made if banks decided to just do away with the encryption layer that they implement to transmit PIN numbers and instead decided to send them in plain text. Ask yourself a simple question why don't they do this if they can just add other layers of security. It is not done because even with the other layers in place this would expose a weakness. Layers are all well and good but should one of the layers expose a weakness then this can in turn have ramifications for the other layers.

As for being privy of information concerning what security measures CCP may use to protect their code and users I am not for a full disclosure on that. All I am saying is that it seems some security issues have been around for a long time and are not being addressed and are there for most to see. Instead of giving priority to these underlying security issues it seems flashy graphics are being given priority. Python code or not it was their language of choice I take it they took into consideration the security implications when choosing the language yet they seem aware of some of them but do nothing to address them.

Anyway I am done with this back and forth if you disagree with me fine. Lets just agree to disagree as this could go on for a long time. I therefore will not be responding to any further comments about this topic you choose to make.

Time to get back to the original intention of this thread that is the griefing of bots.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.06.01 16:33:00 - [1044]
 

Hmm, quite the debate here.

But you're right, Squishy, we should remain on topic of the bots here. While I do agree that having a copy of the eve source code lose on the internet is a bad thing (especially for CCP) there's not alot we can do about it right now. And I have read a few threads where CCP has admitted that they are 'cleaning up' the code and making it better/more secure.

However, that debate could be a threadnaught all on its own I think.

So, lets get on with todays update eh?

EP has been really quiet lately. I don't think they are immune to the losses, but this thread has scared most of them away from posting about it. Also Slav (EP developer) has a few of his own threads specifically asking people not to post their tears.

But that's ok. It's been what...two months now since CCP started this banhammer? and I think alot of former bot users are going to be doing what this Tiny Miner user has done:

Originally by: Bot user Dessycrate

I was just banned for 14 days - I will not be mining again - I will now make this toon a PVP toon.

I was mining in 0.6 system kernite - checked loggs and no one convo me. the client had crashed and I logged back in - started the miner again. and then about 5 mins later client crashed again - i logged back in - and my account was banned for 14 days per Eula micro bot.

so this system i was in i had been in 3 days , local never got above 9 or more. so the other people in system were online the same time i was. so im courious to see if they got banned too. if not I m reporting there g reffing asses.

I have to say I HATE that I was banned but - I understand people don't want botters like us. I am proud to bot because I really don't have the time to mine like I should.

Thank you Vangogh I do have to say I love your product and IF I open a NEW account on eve I will use it again on that toon. but for now this toon is going to PVP version.

I love this application you made, and I will recommend it to my friends but to use lightly.



The question is, will any of his friends listen to him say "Hey I got banned using this program, but you should use it too".

O, also, the new patch has been screwing with the bots. most of them aren't working (I made a separate thread for it)

now you're up to date.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.01 16:43:00 - [1045]
 

So what's up with the Bot channel? I joined it the other day, but it seemed closed down or something?

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.06.01 16:52:00 - [1046]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
So what's up with the Bot channel? I joined it the other day, but it seemed closed down or something?


No, it's up and running...or at least it was this morning for me.

Bot Grief is the name, check your spelling Cool

Clasina
Posted - 2011.06.01 17:01:00 - [1047]
 

Another terrible, all breaking patch comes and goes and we're still whining about bots and their supposed 'ruining' of the game. Okay.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.06.01 17:08:00 - [1048]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/06/2011 17:11:31
Originally by: Clasina
Another terrible, all breaking patch comes and goes and we're still whining about bots and their supposed 'ruining' of the game. Okay.


Your definition of "all breaking" seems to be a bit... off.

And by off, I mean stupid and ill informed.

Squish, I've never argued with the facts. The part you keep missing is my assertion that your assumptions based on those facts are without merit. Be that as it may, I'll let the matter drop.


I'll check the other thread NinjaSpud. I've been wondering if some of the visual changes (transparency, etc.) may have been done with an eye towards making life more difficult for OCR based bots.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.06.01 22:31:00 - [1049]
 

Here is a tip for those who want to help defeat mission running bots without necessarily being so militant:

When buying faction items on contract, check who you're buying from. If the person:
A) has a very stupid/uncreative name...
B) was created only days ago...

...it's most likely a laundring alt from RMT/botting.

Instead of always buying the cheapest item, look at those slightly more expensive to find the real players and buy from them instead. Take your business away from the botters/RMTers. And if you really want to mess around with them, report it to CCP so they can trace it backwards and ban it and all related accounts.

Xylengra
Posted - 2011.06.02 02:42:00 - [1050]
 

Bump, and...

Checking in, because I still get hate mail accusing me of being a macroer. Why I feel I have to post to prove I'm not banned is beyond me, but, it is what it is.

Finally (and for the love of whatever God or Goddess is appropriate, this doesn't make me a macroer or a supporter of same), amidst the self-congratulatory and orgasmic postings of support and progress, the fact of the matter is this:

There has literally been very little actual progress.

We have seen some reports - impossible to verify, of course - that some silly highsec miners have been banned, but bans involving those that were always the real problem, the alliance- and nullsec-supported ratting botters, are literally grinding away undeterred. This is because CCP is still relying on other players to report them, and the number of instances where this will actually happen are few and far between. Whistle-blowers are punished by the corp/alliance and generally kicked quicker than CCP takes action on the actual botter.

NinjaSpud, et al, are doing great work, but their work is confined and constricted, and they are hampering the botting population that is least responsible for the majority of the problems. Yes, it is all high fun and does provide a new venture for some who had become otherwise bored with the game, but we all know that the developers are adapting and making their programs harder to detect, even before CCP gets caught up. Yes, every little bit helps, but while I and others have reported some activity at the TM site, I have backdoor information that VG's sales have increased, with more and more new accounts happily botting away. Equally, nothing has been said or has happened to shake my conviction that what little CCP is doing is anything more than lip service to the problem.

Will that change over time? I hope so, but have never been one to advance faith without solid verifiable (yes, that term again) evidence.

Given the state of macroing, and other, perhaps bigger issues such as hacked code, etc., I've bought enough time for my two accounts to continue through the end of the year and will continue training each for their respective fields. I doubt I will be playing much with either this account or the account of my main.

I wish you all good hunting, despite my belief that your efforts amount to shooting elephants with BB guns, and hope that you all have a grand time at Eve's newest mini-profession. Very Happy

BTW, haters gonna hate, and those that persist in thinking I am a botter or a supporter of same will always and forever think this. This will be my last input for this issue. IF over the next few months there is noticeable and meaningful progress, I will be glad to return and give all credit due.


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