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blankseplocked Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War
 
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Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.05.18 15:35:00 - [871]
 

Edited by: Komen on 18/05/2011 16:05:12
Oh, second page? No no, that won't do. Up you go.

Edit with a real post later.

Edit-

So, having read the latest update, this is all very good. I don't really have anything to contribute, aside from noticing, as I move through systems near Jita, several characters and corps with names like 'jalskdf jalskdf' (<--made up example). So either they've turned their bots off and are just idling, they're actual legitimate players (perhaps an alt corp), or they are botting and CCP hasn't scooped them into the banmachine yet.

Thanks again NinjaSpud for digging into this.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.18 15:55:00 - [872]
 

Originally by: Komen
Oh, second page? No no, that won't do. Up you go.

Edit with a real post later.


ty for that kind bump :)

Nothing super to report on the botters websites. But I did receive a very interesting email.

Out of respect for privacy, I will not divulge the name attached to this email. I logged on this morning before work to check my PI and this is one of the emails in my in box:

Originally by: Former Botter

I am a former botter and I am very sorry. :-(

I would like to to what I can to help you and your movement to remove botting from the game. May I first give you some background.

I won't give any excuse for my activity, I'm a grownup and I know it was against the EUA.

I run with one miner and one Orca pilot in Hi-sec. I used the Macrolab programme which is regarded as one of the best. It is run by a person called Slav who regularly updates the programme for free. The costs are failry low and with one miner (boosted) I could keep three alts going in plex.

The main reason people bot is to be competative in a harsh market. However the market is harsh because of the botters. Its a downward spiral which is why I would like to do all I can to help you and Sreegs. I understand I may not have anythign new to tell you and that my input may be small, but if there is anything I can do I will. Its the only way to break the spiral imho.

Spotting a Macrolab user is fairly easy. Firstly they run a fairly regular pattern. Although a random delay is programmed into the app it isn't often used. They will then return to the same spot in a belt and mine it until its dead of the ore they have set to mine. They cannot put different crystals into their lasers so they tend to mine the same ore all of the time but they can replace broken crystals of the same type. They do not use Orcas in the traditional sense. The goods can only be unloaded in a station so an Orca can only be used away from any threats (usually a POS or safe spot) and buffs. Multi mining is possible but risky. The system switches only everry 10 mins leaving the non-active bot vulnerable. Running on two or more seperate systems is s safer option but will cost you an extra license.

Macrolabs also runs a Trader bot, but I never used it.

I have given you a brief overview of what Macrolabs do but I don't know if it is of any use. I probalby have answers to questions you may have and if I can help at all I am very happy to do so.




Guys this gives me some hope. This tells me that there are some people out there that where just in it for a cheap and easy buck. I officially have an informant...someone who's used this macro before and can give details on its working. I'm going to have a long conversation with this guy, and learn all the ends and out of the macrolab bot. This will help us spot them, and know the difference between a bot and a real person.

I would like to thank you, mr former botter, for coming forward with this information. I have no doubt that some here will flame you for your past digressions, but I appreciate the help.

w1z81t
Posted - 2011.05.18 16:12:00 - [873]
 

Originally by: Former Botter

I would like to to what I can to help you and your movement to remove botting from the game.


After this part I stopped reading, because botting will never be removed from any MMO let alone Eve. You may make it harder for botters but they will always exist.

Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.05.18 16:12:00 - [874]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
Originally by: Komen
Oh, second page? No no, that won't do. Up you go.

Edit with a real post later.


ty for that kind bump :)

Nothing super to report on the botters websites. But I did receive a very interesting email.

Out of respect for privacy, I will not divulge the name attached to this email. I logged on this morning before work to check my PI and this is one of the emails in my in box:

Originally by: Former Botter

I am a former botter and I am very sorry. :-(

I would like to to what I can to help you and your movement to remove botting from the game. May I first give you some background.

I won't give any excuse for my activity, I'm a grownup and I know it was against the EUA.

I run with one miner and one Orca pilot in Hi-sec. I used the Macrolab programme which is regarded as one of the best. It is run by a person called Slav who regularly updates the programme for free. The costs are failry low and with one miner (boosted) I could keep three alts going in plex.

The main reason people bot is to be competative in a harsh market. However the market is harsh because of the botters. Its a downward spiral which is why I would like to do all I can to help you and Sreegs. I understand I may not have anythign new to tell you and that my input may be small, but if there is anything I can do I will. Its the only way to break the spiral imho.

Spotting a Macrolab user is fairly easy. Firstly they run a fairly regular pattern. Although a random delay is programmed into the app it isn't often used. They will then return to the same spot in a belt and mine it until its dead of the ore they have set to mine. They cannot put different crystals into their lasers so they tend to mine the same ore all of the time but they can replace broken crystals of the same type. They do not use Orcas in the traditional sense. The goods can only be unloaded in a station so an Orca can only be used away from any threats (usually a POS or safe spot) and buffs. Multi mining is possible but risky. The system switches only everry 10 mins leaving the non-active bot vulnerable. Running on two or more seperate systems is s safer option but will cost you an extra license.

Macrolabs also runs a Trader bot, but I never used it.

I have given you a brief overview of what Macrolabs do but I don't know if it is of any use. I probalby have answers to questions you may have and if I can help at all I am very happy to do so.




Guys this gives me some hope. This tells me that there are some people out there that where just in it for a cheap and easy buck. I officially have an informant...someone who's used this macro before and can give details on its working. I'm going to have a long conversation with this guy, and learn all the ends and out of the macrolab bot. This will help us spot them, and know the difference between a bot and a real person.

I would like to thank you, mr former botter, for coming forward with this information. I have no doubt that some here will flame you for your past digressions, but I appreciate the help.


I wish to add my thanks to you, 'mr former botter'. Hey, we all make mistakes. You've realized yours, you've stopped (apparently) and you've even apologized. Further, you're offering insight into the problem gained from first-hand experience. I'm sure those in the 'still botting' camp would like to stomp you, but it's okay. We're here for you.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.18 16:40:00 - [875]
 

Just like how the water gate scandal had an informant named "Deep Throat", our informant shall be named "Mr Former Botter".

Thank you, Mr Former Botter. If you like, you can help us in any way you can. So far, we have compiled a list of potential bots. And with the advice that you provided, we could narrow down that list and further refine our hunting tactics.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.18 20:35:00 - [876]
 

Originally by: Marrl Shadowfall
Originally by: Malcanis
but are they really any worse than most 0.0 alliances?


No Test is literally the worst alliance in eve. They are also evil, i'm sure one of them also kicked my dog and now my dog needs an operation Crying or Very sad


You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but it was your fellow goon HELICON ONE who said that, not me. Perhaps your warning would be better directed at him?

Alicia Melchiottt
Posted - 2011.05.18 22:53:00 - [877]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Marrl Shadowfall
Originally by: Malcanis
but are they really any worse than most 0.0 alliances?


No Test is literally the worst alliance in eve. They are also evil, i'm sure one of them also kicked my dog and now my dog needs an operation Crying or Very sad


You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but it was your fellow goon HELICON ONE who said that, not me. Perhaps your warning would be better directed at him?

Hey, if you wana blame someone, blame White Noise.

Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.05.19 00:13:00 - [878]
 

Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:32:47
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:17:43
Secret ninja edit: Nevermind, already posted a couple pages back.

Further edit:

I wish to thank GM Loki for smashing a botter hard. I don't have a problem with this. What I hope is happening is that other botters are being smashed hard also - not just bans, but isk removal to the point of being severely handicapped.

As for customer service...lol. I am quite thrilled by the brilliant customer service on display. Cheaters are not deserving of being treated nicely. It is only because we are civil, and don't know where they live, that we do not throw rotten fruit at them.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.19 06:40:00 - [879]
 

Originally by: Komen
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:32:47
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:17:43
Secret ninja edit: Nevermind, already posted a couple pages back.

Further edit:

I wish to thank GM Loki for smashing a botter hard. I don't have a problem with this. What I hope is happening is that other botters are being smashed hard also - not just bans, but isk removal to the point of being severely handicapped.



Not, it should "ISK removal of the ISK gained by cheating".

The ban is the punishment. The ISK removal is merely to prevent the botter profiting from his cheating.

The principle is exactly the same as when GMs remove RMT'd ISK.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.19 07:34:00 - [880]
 

For what it's worth, the stuff from CCP Sreegs at Fanfest is in the YouTube video EVE Fanfest 2011: Security, from about 10:20 and goes on for about… the entire presentation (can anyone show me how to bookmark a video with a start offset?). The important bit is in the 10-15min segment though, where CCP Sreegs states that the term of the "slap over the wrist" ban is still under discussion, the second ban is 30 days, third ban is permanent. There was discussion there somewhere about removing all proceeds (ISK and assets) from accounts caught botting. My eyes keep glazing over as I listen to the video over and over again, I think the fnords have won.

The guy that gets up and asks a question about market bots is from Test Alliance Please Ignore.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.05.19 07:56:00 - [881]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
(can anyone show me how to bookmark a video with a start offset?)


like This then pause the video at that point , right click on the video part and click copy url at current time [in chrome at least]

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.05.19 08:16:00 - [882]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 19/05/2011 08:24:44
Originally by: Mara Rinn
My eyes keep glazing over as I listen to the video over and over again, I think the have won.

I think you are missing a word there.

I also think we don't have to discuss this topic any further, it seems to be a really unpleasant affair *shudder* and we should be grateful that CCP handles it for us.


Everinsearch
Posted - 2011.05.19 10:24:00 - [883]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 19/05/2011 08:24:44
Originally by: Mara Rinn
My eyes keep glazing over as I listen to the video over and over again, I think the have won.

I think you are missing a word there.

I also think we don't have to discuss this topic any further, it seems to be a really unpleasant affair *shudder* and we should be grateful that CCP handles it for us.




Yes, however, the noise we make helps spur action by CCP. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Rasalgethi
Posted - 2011.05.19 11:20:00 - [884]
 

Edited by: Rasalgethi on 19/05/2011 11:25:03
Edited by: Rasalgethi on 19/05/2011 11:24:29
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris
I was pointing out how silly it is to think a business will take any offense to an undesirable customer leaving.

I run a theoretical convenience store.
I brew fresh coffee every morning.
I offer cheap 60c refills to customers who bring in their own mug.
Some dude comes in with a mug and a 5-gallon bucket and some tubes.
He pays $1.20 for two refills.
Sets up a siphon on my coffee urn to drip coffee into his bucket while he's at work.
Tries to rationalize "If I didn't have coffee, I wouldn't be able to work and afford your 60c refills, dude. I'm just trying to stay awake and employed. You get my money every day, I keep you in business dammit!"
Comes back at the end of the day to get his bucket o' java.
Sells what excess he can't possibly drink on the sidewalk directly in front of my store for some extra scratch.
One morning I tell him to get ****ed.
"Heh. Well I'm not paying you for this morning's coffee."
"Get out."

~Fin~



I had to stop reading this excellent thread here cause I just busted a gut, thank you for making me smile a big smile, and thanks for this thread OP! DIE BOTZ!

Rasalgethi
Posted - 2011.05.19 13:47:00 - [885]
 

Why do people find mining so boring? Boring to some people is fun for plenty of others. I like how alot of activities in EVE can be hectic and crazy then some are very relaxed like a long drive through the country or something. How are you going to make mining "more exciting"? I know some decent ideas have been tossed around but really, you can tweak it all you want. I don't think its going to have the thrill of PvP peoples... maybe its not meant to be THE exciting thing to do? How about talking to your Corp Mates? Listen to Music? Want it to go faster and get more for your Corp? How about not doing it by yourself...

Do what I do while playing EVE all the time, get yourself a second monitor hooked up, sign up to Netflix streaming and watch TV while you Mine. Hell I do it while fighting to. The only reason I quit mining was because it just isnt profitable for me running solo at it, so instead of being a P****Y and grabbing a bot and 10+ accounts I just found other things to do... that make me money... But damn I might have to dust off my Hulk now that profits from mining will hopefully be rising!!!! (Keep in mind what I just said is more than likely what CCP wants to hear after all this fallout settles, real players returning to mining)

Every MMO is a timesink as people have mentioned, if you can't handle that sink (be it mining or plexing or whateva) and feel the need to use some hack junkies bot, than perhaps you should'nt be playing MMO's ruining it for the rest of us. But don't try to justify your bot usage on "boring game mechanics" Pathetic. No one put the gun in your hand, you did it yourself. The FPS market has a need for you... now that is a hacked to death Genre.

What a great thing CCP is doing here, taking steps other companies have feared to tread. Botting and Hacking games has gone on way to long and so unpunished, Kudos CCP and again, thanks for this thread OP and SP!

Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.19 16:09:00 - [886]
 

Friendly bump for this ToGL (Thread of Great Justice) and lets keep the spotlight on the BHB's (Butt Hurt Botters).

Xylengra
Posted - 2011.05.19 16:28:00 - [887]
 

Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig
Friendly bump for this ToGL (Thread of Great Justice) and lets keep the spotlight on the BHB's (Butt Hurt Botters).


ToGL != Thread of Great Justice
ToGJ = Thread of Great Justice

ToGL = Thread of Great Lesbians?
ToGL = Thread of Great Leprechauns?
ToGL = Thread of Great Laughs?
ToGL = Thread of Great Launches?

Anyone have others to add/suggest?

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.19 18:15:00 - [888]
 

Originally by: Xylengra
Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig
Friendly bump for this ToGL (Thread of Great Justice) and lets keep the spotlight on the BHB's (Butt Hurt Botters).


ToGL != Thread of Great Justice
ToGJ = Thread of Great Justice

ToGL = Thread of Great Lesbians?
ToGL = Thread of Great Leprechauns?
ToGL = Thread of Great Laughs?
ToGL = Thread of Great Launches?

Anyone have others to add/suggest?
.

haha kudos on the nerd talk "!="...takes me back to my college days of C++


ToGL = Thread of Great Lawfulness (synonym for justice, according to thesaurus.com)
RazzRazzRazz

Xylengra
Posted - 2011.05.19 19:29:00 - [889]
 

OK, OK...

I guess Lawfullness is it, but...



























I was really hoping it was Lesbians. This game needs moar lesbians.

YARRRR!!

Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.05.19 19:43:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Komen
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:32:47
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:17:43
Secret ninja edit: Nevermind, already posted a couple pages back.

Further edit:

I wish to thank GM Loki for smashing a botter hard. I don't have a problem with this. What I hope is happening is that other botters are being smashed hard also - not just bans, but isk removal to the point of being severely handicapped.



Not, it should "ISK removal of the ISK gained by cheating".

The ban is the punishment. The ISK removal is merely to prevent the botter profiting from his cheating.

The principle is exactly the same as when GMs remove RMT'd ISK.


I understand this principle. Personally I'm saying that ISK removal ought to be a regular part of the punishment, too. "Thou hast gained unearned wealth, so thou too shall experience crippling poverty." It's one of the ten commandments of CCP, or ought to be. If such a thing as a 10 commandments of CCP existed. Except there'd probably be like 4 on there and the rest would be iterated on at some later, unspecified date. (I really do <3 CCP but I've been in this game since '04 and you can't say I'm wrong.)

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.19 20:03:00 - [891]
 

Originally by: Komen
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Komen
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:32:47
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:17:43
Secret ninja edit: Nevermind, already posted a couple pages back.

Further edit:

I wish to thank GM Loki for smashing a botter hard. I don't have a problem with this. What I hope is happening is that other botters are being smashed hard also - not just bans, but isk removal to the point of being severely handicapped.



Not, it should "ISK removal of the ISK gained by cheating".

The ban is the punishment. The ISK removal is merely to prevent the botter profiting from his cheating.

The principle is exactly the same as when GMs remove RMT'd ISK.


I understand this principle. Personally I'm saying that ISK removal ought to be a regular part of the punishment, too. "Thou hast gained unearned wealth, so thou too shall experience crippling poverty." It's one of the ten commandments of CCP, or ought to be. If such a thing as a 10 commandments of CCP existed. Except there'd probably be like 4 on there and the rest would be iterated on at some later, unspecified date. (I really do <3 CCP but I've been in this game since '04 and you can't say I'm wrong.)


The problem with that, is not all isk is equal. Isk that gets traded is different then isk that gets generated.

I wonder what removing macro miners isk from their wallet would do...remember, mining alone doesn't generate income. It generates minerals. You then trade those minerals for income that others have earned. Removing that isk, and you remove a part of the Isk circulation in Eve. I think doing that could have more of an impact (then a 14/30 day ban) on the Eve economic flow.

macro ratters on the other hand, generate Isk from bounties. In situations like that, then removing isk wouldn't hit the market that hard, as the isk was generated (essentially) from nothing.

TBH, it would be difficult to back my theory's up without any hard evidence and numbers. Both of which would be difficult to supply, so at this point its all conjecture.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.19 20:13:00 - [892]
 

FYI, the bot forums are pretty silent right now, so there isn't a whole lot to update.

Always remember, if you are interested in helping with the bot problem, join channel "Bot Grief" and take part.

Alicia Melchiottt
Posted - 2011.05.19 23:00:00 - [893]
 

Bots suck, but griefers suck more. Noone has ever died to a macro miner.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.05.19 23:13:00 - [894]
 

Originally by: Alicia Melchiottt
Bots suck, but griefers suck more. Noone has ever died to a macro miner.


No, but entire alliances have fallen to the supercaps funded with macro sanctum runners.

Alicia Melchiottt
Posted - 2011.05.19 23:15:00 - [895]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Alicia Melchiottt
Bots suck, but griefers suck more. Noone has ever died to a macro miner.


No, but entire alliances have fallen to the supercaps funded with macro sanctum runners.

Oh c'mon you cant tell me there hasn't ever been a super cap fleet funded buy griefers popping freighters in hi-sec. Rolling Eyes

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.05.19 23:58:00 - [896]
 

You miss the point. Bots are run by players who shoot stuff. Because they use bots, they can grief more. The macro miner may not grief, but the player who owns it sure does.

Alicia Melchiottt
Posted - 2011.05.20 00:31:00 - [897]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
You miss the point. Bots are run by players who shoot stuff. Because they use bots, they can grief more. The macro miner may not grief, but the player who owns it sure does.

You sure seem to know a lot on the subject. You dabbed in it, I presume? Laughing

All jokes aside, as a member of an anti-pirate corporation, I resent every one of you griefing dbags. Can I say dbags? Oh well too late.

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.05.20 01:03:00 - [898]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud

I wonder what removing macro miners isk from their wallet would do...remember, mining alone doesn't generate income. It generates minerals. You then trade those minerals for income that others have earned. Removing that isk, and you remove a part of the Isk circulation in Eve. I think doing that could have more of an impact (then a 14/30 day ban) on the Eve economic flow.


Well ccp did say we are generating more isk then is taken out, while not cause for concern yet. So i dont think confiscating the isk from the botters is a huge problem for the economy.

Im Super Gay
Posted - 2011.05.20 01:11:00 - [899]
 

Originally by: Komen
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Komen
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:32:47
Edited by: Komen on 19/05/2011 00:17:43
Secret ninja edit: Nevermind, already posted a couple pages back.

Further edit:

I wish to thank GM Loki for smashing a botter hard. I don't have a problem with this. What I hope is happening is that other botters are being smashed hard also - not just bans, but isk removal to the point of being severely handicapped.



Not, it should "ISK removal of the ISK gained by cheating".

The ban is the punishment. The ISK removal is merely to prevent the botter profiting from his cheating.

The principle is exactly the same as when GMs remove RMT'd ISK.


I understand this principle. Personally I'm saying that ISK removal ought to be a regular part of the punishment, too. "Thou hast gained unearned wealth, so thou too shall experience crippling poverty." It's one of the ten commandments of CCP, or ought to be. If such a thing as a 10 commandments of CCP existed. Except there'd probably be like 4 on there and the rest would be iterated on at some later, unspecified date. (I really do <3 CCP but I've been in this game since '04 and you can't say I'm wrong.)

I know someone who got a 14 day ban on all 3 of his accounts, even though he only botted on 2 of them. When his ban was lifted his wallets were empty, although none of the shiny stuff he bought with botted isk was taken.

Consequence Zero
Non Affiliation
Posted - 2011.05.20 02:04:00 - [900]
 

Originally by: Consequence Zero
What I think should be done regarding the bans could be more extreeme than what is being reported (1st offence is anywhere between 3 days and 14 days)

My Idea:

1st strike: 7 day ban and the reduction of all assets to zero. Since it is ill gotten plundered loot but can be replaced with work. Make it cost the botter where it hurts. Also a 3-6 month freeze of all character trading on the account that MUST be waited out with actual game time. As in no letting the account expire and activate after time is done. This will cost the botter either actual money or more likely Plex that is supplied by a Main and hence built in isk tracking. Twisted Evil

2nd Strike: 15-30 day Ban, the removal of all assets again. The Permanant inability to character transfer character(s) in or out of the account. Now there is no "Cleaning" of the botting character to a "fresh" account.

3rd Strike: Permanant Ban of the Account and the name and shame of the banned Characters. The Name and Shame should be like the wanted poster on the portrait that reads something like "Infected by Rogue Drones, Clone Deleted" to keep the role play immersion intact. Laughing and listed in a thread in the New Forums by the Month. This should put some pressure on those that support the botting and harbor the bots. The corps should notice an active yet quiet player that goes *Poof* twice prior to the name and shame and take action. Since the characters will never be coming back into Eve, and no personal info is shared (actual name of the person owning the account)I see no reason to hide this info.

While removing all assets: ships, loot, isk seems harsh, I believe is will lend some muscle to how serious the matter is and force the botters to step up the sending of isk to be laundered much more frequent and allowing the trail to be seen much easier as well as slowing down the 1 billion for a shuttle pretend scam.

or am I completely wrong?



Heh, Maybe someone reads these and listens. Twisted Evil But who am I kidding. Anyways good to see some form of punishment is happening beyond the slap on the wrist.

Now I am just waiting to see the whines that happen if/when characters are forbidden from being sold


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