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Super Failure
Posted - 2011.05.17 23:53:00 - [841]
 

They would let him continue to distribute so that when people go looking for bots, they find the one(s) they can most easily be caught using instead of a different one whose author has not been...negotiated with yet.

Alicia Melchiottt
Posted - 2011.05.18 01:02:00 - [842]
 

Originally by: Heedless
Originally by: Adrian Idaho
I find it entirely plausible that CCP would make a deal with bot writers to gain information about bot users. However, I believe it is total bull**** that CCP would allow or even encourage bot writers to continue distributing their bots (this is what smells like a conspiracy theory).


Things get mixed up in the retelling, but my guess is it's plausible that cccp asked for the site to remain open and turn over info on those who register going forward, but not actively keeping the bot download/support active.

Also, I call for a national REPORT-A-BOT day to coincide with botageddon to futher publicize the event and encourage another avenue of assistance for those who may not be up for violent action.

You do realize not all people who register on those sites are bot users. And no, CCP would never ask those site to stay up. Maybe a rogue GM, who would probably be fired if ever caught, but not CCP.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.05.18 03:59:00 - [843]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 18/05/2011 03:59:15
Originally by: Alicia Melchiottt
Originally by: Heedless
Originally by: Adrian Idaho
I find it entirely plausible that CCP would make a deal with bot writers to gain information about bot users. However, I believe it is total bull**** that CCP would allow or even encourage bot writers to continue distributing their bots (this is what smells like a conspiracy theory).


Things get mixed up in the retelling, but my guess is it's plausible that cccp asked for the site to remain open and turn over info on those who register going forward, but not actively keeping the bot download/support active.

Also, I call for a national REPORT-A-BOT day to coincide with botageddon to futher publicize the event and encourage another avenue of assistance for those who may not be up for violent action.

You do realize not all people who register on those sites are bot users. And no, CCP would never ask those site to stay up. Maybe a rogue GM, who would probably be fired if ever caught, but not CCP.


While I agree that CCP would not keep the bot available for download, I must point out that the people registered would not instantly be banned. Instead they would be put on a target list to check out. If the person was not actually using the bot, no harm done.

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.05.18 04:23:00 - [844]
 

Rogue GM?? Naw, NEVER at CCP

...psssh

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.18 05:17:00 - [845]
 

Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 18/05/2011 05:18:16
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 18/05/2011 05:17:31
I'll just leave this here:

http://www.**********.com/content.php?169-Crime-and-Punishment

FHC link

Well, you guys know what site it is despite the lol-filter.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.18 06:09:00 - [846]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 18/05/2011 06:09:12
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 18/05/2011 05:18:16
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 18/05/2011 05:17:31
I'll just leave this here:

http://www.**********.com/content.php?169-Crime-and-Punishment

FHC link

Well, you guys know what site it is despite the lol-filter.


haha


Hey I thought I was the reporter here? LOL

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.18 06:53:00 - [847]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 18/05/2011 07:05:33

I didn't think it possible, BUT this continues to get better and better. His argument is basically, "other people are guilty as well so why should I be punished". Ha, so many logical fallacies into one post.

--- edit ---

16 Billion at fairly typical corp tax of 5-10% then the bots themselves lost between 160 and 320 Billion.

It's a good move to see CCP motivating Alliance Corps to purge the bots from their membership in their own best interests.



Avensys
Posted - 2011.05.18 08:20:00 - [848]
 

Edited by: Avensys on 18/05/2011 08:29:15
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
I'll just leave this here:

http://www.**********.com/content.php?169-Crime-and-Punishment

FHC link

Well, you guys know what site it is despite the lol-filter.

I like the combination of
Originally by: leetcheese
A 3 weeks ago, I received a 14 day ban on all of my accounts for allegedly botting. Like anyone else, I petitioned this ban, received a response saying "Sorry, we say you were botting, so it still stands."

and
Originally by: leetcheese
I thought it was fairly obvious from the title "Crime and Punishment" that I did bot. The "allegedly" was just badly placed humor from watching too many episodes of Law and Order.

That's totally no abuse of the petition system...


EDIT: @Wyke Mossari I am not sure I understand your post Neutral
leetcheese himself was botting for his own personal gain, he wasn't collecting tax payments from alliance-owned bots.
His argument is "Why should I be punished harder than other people?" as ISK/asset removal does not seem to be the norm.
The most likely outcome is that he will either quit the game or get bailed out by generous alliance members.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.18 08:47:00 - [849]
 

Leetcheese's argument seems to be that CCP's punishments for botting used to be ineffectual, so it's wrong that their punishments have been changed to actually be a deterrent.

Naturally, the correct response it to point and laugh at a lying botter who got caught and now has a hurt butte about it.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.18 09:17:00 - [850]
 

BTW the incident is especially delicious because Leetcheese is a director of TEST, an alliance that openly encourages the membership to bot, and actually has an alliance rule against reporting bots.

It turns out he was reported by another TEST member.... Laughing

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.05.18 09:39:00 - [851]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 18/05/2011 09:51:11
Originally by: Malcanis
BTW the incident is especially delicious because Leetcheese is a director of TEST, an alliance that openly encourages the membership to bot, and actually has an alliance rule against reporting bots.

let's see...

The TEST alliance bylaws have five sections:

Quote:
- Expulsion from TEST Alliance
- You might get kicked/warned/roles stripped/forced to sing on TS
- We'll be annoyed with you
- Ratting Rules
- PAC (Private Alt Corp) Rules


The only part that could be construed to "openly encourage the membership to bot" would be:

Quote:
- We'll be annoyed with you
* Petitioning against another Testie - if you absolutely need to do this, send a full explanation to the directors


As a point of reference - that's on the same level of severity as not being on voice-comms while in fleet.

It doesn't say "you should bot" nor does it say "you must not report friendly bots" - the message is "if you feel you have to report another member, please talk to our directors about it (preferably before you do it) to avoid misunderstandings".

Trying to ban the reporting of bots or alliance members in general would be extremely stupid as such a rule would never be enforceable, only scare people into staying silent (while writing petitions) and obscure the leadership's view on issues & conflicts within TEST.

The directors cannot prevent you from writing a petition to CCP but if they are informed in time stupid fallout (that is not direct part of CCP's punishment of the offender) like having to restructure military leadership with no prior notice can be avoided (although it is imo up for debate whether it is responsible conduct for an alliance-level director to risk getting banned in the first place).

HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:07:00 - [852]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
BTW the incident is especially delicious because Leetcheese is a director of TEST, an alliance that openly encourages the membership to bot, and actually has an alliance rule against reporting bots.


Can we save the "[Alliance hostile to me] encourages botting/RMTing/hacking/satanism/puppy kicking/etc" rhetoric for CAOD please?

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:08:00 - [853]
 

Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 18/05/2011 10:10:41
When organizations wish to promote illegal or immoral behavior the first thing they do is write it down in their constitution, as we all know that's what reflects reality.

And when a director gets caught in such an amusing fashion, no, we don't need to keep the alliance discussion to CAOD.

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:29:00 - [854]
 

Edited by: Widemouth Deepthroat on 18/05/2011 10:35:53
Edited by: Widemouth Deepthroat on 18/05/2011 10:30:28
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
derp


Anyone can go to eve-news.com and listen to the recent TEST meeting where your directorate says don't report TEST/GOON botters and if you do you will be purged from alliance.

"Please don't be ****s. Don't report Goons. Like seriously, if you do that and I find out about it you're gonna be kicked **** out." - Leetcheese


HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:54:00 - [855]
 

Edited by: HELIC0N ONE on 18/05/2011 10:55:06
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Anyone can go to eve-news.com and listen to the recent TEST meeting where your directorate says don't report TEST/GOON botters and if you do you will be purged from alliance.

"Please don't be ****s. Don't report Goons. Like seriously, if you do that and I find out about it you're gonna be kicked **** out." - Leetcheese


This wasn't actually about botting - a few members of TEST were reporting every goon ratting in Fountain as a "bot" and stirring up stupid blue-on-blue drama because we were taking up the favoured systems, hence the quote above.

As already stated, a 'don't report bots' alliance policy is completely unenforceable anyway.

Teh Scout
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:57:00 - [856]
 

Edited by: Teh Scout on 18/05/2011 10:57:46
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 18/05/2011 09:51:11
Originally by: Malcanis
BTW the incident is especially delicious because Leetcheese is a director of TEST, an alliance that openly encourages the membership to bot, and actually has an alliance rule against reporting bots.

let's see...

The TEST alliance bylaws have five sections:

Quote:
- Expulsion from TEST Alliance
- You might get kicked/warned/roles stripped/forced to sing on TS
- We'll be annoyed with you
- Ratting Rules
- PAC (Private Alt Corp) Rules


The only part that could be construed to "openly encourage the membership to bot" would be:

Quote:
- We'll be annoyed with you
* Petitioning against another Testie - if you absolutely need to do this, send a full explanation to the directors


As a point of reference - that's on the same level of severity as not being on voice-comms while in fleet.

It doesn't say "you should bot" nor does it say "you must not report friendly bots" - the message is "if you feel you have to report another member, please talk to our directors about it (preferably before you do it) to avoid misunderstandings".


"Hello, Mr. Director, I have an issue. I must report a botter: you".

Well, that would indeed go down.

Murseilius Chan
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:03:00 - [857]
 

Edited by: Murseilius Chan on 18/05/2011 11:06:09
Originally by: HELIC0N ONE
Edited by: HELIC0N ONE on 18/05/2011 10:55:06
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Anyone can go to eve-news.com and listen to the recent TEST meeting where your directorate says don't report TEST/GOON botters and if you do you will be purged from alliance.

"Please don't be ****s. Don't report Goons. Like seriously, if you do that and I find out about it you're gonna be kicked **** out." - Leetcheese


This wasn't actually about botting - a few members of TEST were reporting every goon ratting in Fountain as a "bot" and stirring up stupid blue-on-blue drama because we were taking up the favoured systems, hence the quote above.

As already stated, a 'don't report bots' alliance policy is completely unenforceable anyway.


Wow, this Leetcheese character sounds a bit shirty about something Sad

Wouldn't be the 16+ B confiscation from his botters and alts would it? You guys are just so frigging unbelievable. You have the hide to come here and quote current 'caught out botter no 1' as proof that you don't condone botting in any way.

Anyone who hasn't done so yet read the previous linky to this losers comments. No 'I did something wrong and got busted', but all 'some moron ratted me, he sucks'. No problem with the culture in TEST, No Siree ugh

Edit: FYI, I count Goons as being one with TEST before you comment.

HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:10:00 - [858]
 

Originally by: Remyne Zhe Dacella
Absolutely despicable tactic to grief a corp and alliance so poor that it allows botters to join. Of course the corp could be more careful that it doesn't allow botters to join.

How is a corp recruiter supposed to prevent people joining who have the intention to bot? Psychic powers? Or is this like US immigration where you have to declare you're not there to overthrow the government macro-rat before being granted entry?

Quote:
And the corp could kick and report them itself as soon as the pattern of behaviour manifests. Of course the botter and all associated accounts are going to get banned. And if the corp doesn't, after the first time it gets fined, the Alliance will now have a financial incentive to self police instead of pretending to wash your hands of it.

This would be a good thing, and I'm glad you mentioned it.

Right, so every time a new recruit joins your corp you're supposed to assign somebody to watch over them around the clock to make sure they're not botting?

Again, what stops me from applying to join a hostile corp on an account unconnected to my main, going to a quiet system, switching on a bot, and then reporting the corp for tolerating botters and getting them fined?

You're shifting the burden of responsibility to the entity that has no reliable method of policing the issue. That's dumb, and will be massively expolited for political ends.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:17:00 - [859]
 

The botter doth protest too much...

Perhaps HELICON never did anything besides botting while out in 0.0, since he doesn't seem to know how anyone would go about finding those who do in a corp.

Teh Scout
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:20:00 - [860]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
The botter doth protest too much...

Perhaps HELICON never did anything besides botting while out in 0.0, since he doesn't seem to know how anyone would go about finding those who do in a corp.


Indeed, that tax has a nice side-effect.

HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:21:00 - [861]
 

Originally by: Murseilius Chan
Wow, this Leetcheese character sounds a bit shirty about something Sad

Wouldn't be the 16+ B confiscation from his botters and alts would it? You guys are just so frigging unbelievable. You have the hide to come here and quote current 'caught out botter no 1' as proof that you don't condone botting in any way.

Anyone who hasn't done so yet read the previous linky to this losers comments. No 'I did something wrong and got busted', but all 'some moron ratted me, he sucks'. No problem with the culture in TEST, No Siree ugh


For the record, I already called leetcheese a stupid crybaby in the responses to the Kugu article he posted, and I'm glad that he (albeit unintentionally) has done so much to highlight the risk of asset confiscation. If you want to tackle botting, you should link that article as widely as possible, maybe some botters out there will read it, look at the amount taken from him and think twice about what they're doing.

HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:25:00 - [862]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
The botter doth protest too much...

Perhaps HELICON never did anything besides botting while out in 0.0, since he doesn't seem to know how anyone would go about finding those who do in a corp.


Never botted (on this or any other account). Do enlighten me about these magic bot detection tools available to corp directors, though (if you start talking about monitoring time spent online or taxes or not responding to local/convos I'm going to laugh really hard).

Murseilius Chan
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:38:00 - [863]
 

Originally by: HELIC0N ONE
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
The botter doth protest too much...

Perhaps HELICON never did anything besides botting while out in 0.0, since he doesn't seem to know how anyone would go about finding those who do in a corp.


Never botted (on this or any other account). Do enlighten me about these magic bot detection tools available to corp directors, though (if you start talking about monitoring time spent online or taxes or not responding to local/convos I'm going to laugh really hard).


Unfortunately this I agree with. Unless a corp/alliance member is openly bragging in chat about their bots its very difficult. I (my main naturally) and many corp members have often been on for times far in excess of what is reasonable, and not always chatting.
Following their ships unaware in belts etc 'might' give you a clue, but who is seriously going to do that unless there is already doubts.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:42:00 - [864]
 

Originally by: HELIC0N ONE
Originally by: Malcanis
BTW the incident is especially delicious because Leetcheese is a director of TEST, an alliance that openly encourages the membership to bot, and actually has an alliance rule against reporting bots.


Can we save the "[Alliance hostile to me] encourages botting/RMTing/hacking/satanism/puppy kicking/etc" rhetoric for CAOD please?


All alliances are hostile to me, including a significant proportion of my own. In fact DC are the powerbloc which I loathe the least. So dont try and spin this as a "lolCOAD" thing.

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:44:00 - [865]
 

Edited by: bitters much on 18/05/2011 11:45:28
Shame on you TEST after you made me believe ( not really Laughing ) that only the russians are the bad guys, enjoy your ban ( and negative wallets ) TEST Bot-director.




Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.18 11:49:00 - [866]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 18/05/2011 11:51:15
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 18/05/2011 09:51:11
Originally by: Malcanis
BTW the incident is especially delicious because Leetcheese is a director of TEST, an alliance that openly encourages the membership to bot, and actually has an alliance rule against reporting bots.

let's see...

The TEST alliance bylaws have five sections:


Nice dodge attempt, but who said anything about TEST "bylaws", as if they are the only way that behaviours are encouraged or deterred.

What about the alliance forums, for instance? Could it possibly be the case that botting is widely and positively discussed in there...?

The fact is that TEST members are among the most enthusiastic botters in 0.0, and now that a director has been caught, he has been given a penalty strong enough to genuinely deter. Lets hope the other TESTies get the message.

I do hope so, because I rather like the other things about TEST, and I've always thought it a shame that you thought it was appropriate and acceptable to bot.

HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:23:00 - [867]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Nice dodge attempt, but who said anything about TEST "bylaws", as if they are the only way that behaviours are encouraged or deterred.

What about the alliance forums, for instance? Could it possibly be the case that botting is widely and positively discussed in there...?

The fact is that TEST members are among the most enthusiastic botters in 0.0, and now that a director has been caught, he has been given a penalty strong enough to genuinely deter. Lets hope the other TESTies get the message.

I do hope so, because I rather like the other things about TEST, and I've always thought it a shame that you thought it was appropriate and acceptable to bot.

TEST is not exactly a difficult alliance to get access to, if they are openly encouraging members to start botting on their forums or other communication channels then one would expect it to be leaked all over the internet by now.

Of course there are members of TEST that bot (including a director lolololol), but are they really any worse than most 0.0 alliances?

Murseilius Chan
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:38:00 - [868]
 

Edited by: Murseilius Chan on 18/05/2011 12:39:47
Well, I for one look at the Supercap blobs and say, botters. Now I know that there are a lot of old chars with shedloads of ISK that could easily buy one, however they don't exactly throw them into the fray so enthusiastically.

For what its worth, I would be extremely suprised if any of DRF, NC, PL etc DID NOT have a stack of bots. Its a EVE wide epidemic and has been for as long as I can remember, just now its a lot worse.

Edit: can recall problems with bots as far back as early 06, most had names that consisted of someone randomly smacking the keyboard. CCP doing absolutely SFA about them from the start is what has caused this current drama.

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:41:00 - [869]
 

Originally by: Murseilius Chan
Well, I for one look at the Supercap blobs and say, botters. Now I know that there are a lot of old chars with shedloads of ISK that could easily buy one, however they don't exactly throw them into the fray so enthusiastically.

For what its worth, I would be extremely suprised if any of DRF, NC, PL etc DID NOT have a stack of bots. Its a EVE wide epidemic and has been for as long as I can remember, just now its a lot worse.


you seem to forget the amount of techni****and other moongoo that is worth a lot of isk

you there will be bots in 0.0 just not always as many as we think

Marrl Shadowfall
Minmatar
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.18 13:43:00 - [870]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
but are they really any worse than most 0.0 alliances?


No Test is literally the worst alliance in eve. They are also evil, i'm sure one of them also kicked my dog and now my dog needs an operation Crying or Very sad


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