open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 ... : last (44)

Author Topic

Max Romeo
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:19:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: Solstice Project

OCR can be countered by hardware overlays



It's extremely easy to capture overlays(video/dd and ogl/d3d), in fact it makes OCR far easier and far easier on resources if you do it cleverly.

Overlays are also extremely horrible, prone to instability and hardware vendor breakage(sup nvidia, how's my VMR7 overlay?) and would be the worst possible choice to make for maaaaaany reasons.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:21:00 - [392]
 

Edited by: Othran on 19/04/2011 15:30:37
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
I couldn't care less about mining bots as all they are doing is moving isk about. There is NO new isk creation from mining bots.



While I do get the gist of what you are trying to say, I believe mining (bots) do indeed inject new isk into the economy. Roids are a regenerating, harvestable resource in the game (just like NPC rats).

You don't buy the ore, you harvest it from nothing (in essence) and then sell it, refine and sell it, or build with it and sell the product... but there is no initial outlay of isk. It creates isk, again, just as NPC rats do with loot drops (although not to the same extent as there are no bounties obviously).




You're wrong.

Mining generates ore. Nothing else. The ore is worthless without someone willing to buy it - as is whatever you can make with it. The isk that someone pays for your ore ALREADY EXISTS in the game.

Bounties are ISK. You don't need anyone to do anything. The ISK is created from npcs as ISK and if we're talking sov space then there's no reason at all that Concorde should be paying it. Bump the low-sec bounties if balance is required.

There are two main problems here with botting :

1) Inflation* caused by out of control ISK sources;

2) Personal/alliance gain.

I'm not going to go into all this again but if you think ore is "new" ISK then you don't understand the Eve economy. The #1 problem IMHO for now is 1) and yes 2) is a serious problem in the east but start clamping down on money supply then RMT is impacted too.

Edit - and yes supercap production etc should have been a clue to CCP. It wasn't - or if it was then nobody acted upon it. As usual it takes player rage on the forums.

Meh CCP will do what they will (or probably won't)....


*don't tell me it doesn't exist when I have small faction stuff that has doubled in value over a year. Hell RF points are 50% up on what they were last year

Solstice Project
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:25:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Max Romeo
Originally by: Solstice Project

OCR can be countered by hardware overlays



It's extremely easy to capture overlays(video/dd and ogl/d3d), in fact it makes OCR far easier and far easier on resources if you do it cleverly.

Overlays are also extremely horrible, prone to instability and hardware vendor breakage(sup nvidia, how's my VMR7 overlay?) and would be the worst possible choice to make for maaaaaany reasons.


kk.
Didn't know that.
I'm probably not up2date anymore.
Thanks for the information.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:31:00 - [394]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/04/2011 15:34:05
Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/04/2011 15:32:33
Quote:
*don't tell me it doesn't exist when I have small faction stuff that has doubled in value over a year. Hell RF points are 50% up on what they were last year

And i got faction stuff that halved in worth. My CNR that i bought 3 years ago or something with faction modules is now worth something like 70% of when i bought it. My kronos, that i bought long after the introduction, also saw a similar drop in worth. As nice indication of mineral prices, t1 BS are also down in price compared to lets say a year ago.

The ISK inflation in eve is nothing significant, and certainly way smaller than other inflations, like power creep. Look at supercap inflation, that is enormous compared to ISK inflation and a much larger problem. And guess what is responsible for supercap inflation, exactly those bots that you dont care about.


Quote:
Who the **** is defending bots you clueless piece of ****?

Me?

Ahahahahaha that'll be right.


Yes you were the one saying you didnt have much of a problem with the majority of the bots.

I C U
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:34:00 - [395]
 

So I finally made my way out to the 0.0 and found myself a team of potential macroers to afk-grief. The team was 4 Ravens, a Drake, and an indy (found on d-scan).

I found them at 2:30am UTC. I warped to a belt with some wrecks, and waited for a bit to see if they'd cycle through ratting. They didn't.

45 minutes later I found them sitting at an unarmed POS, complete with ship maintenance thing, and corp hangar.

Less than 2 hours after my arrival one of them tried talking to me in local, but I was in bed.

8 hours later I turn on my monitor after a hard night's sleep, and they're still sitting at the POS.

Now I just need to figure out remote desktop, and the griefing can escalate further.

Macro hours disrupted so far; 48.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:34:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/04/2011 15:32:33
Quote:
*don't tell me it doesn't exist when I have small faction stuff that has doubled in value over a year. Hell RF points are 50% up on what they were last year

And i got faction stuff that halved in worth. My CNR My kronos,


Learn to READ.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:36:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/04/2011 15:32:33
Quote:
*don't tell me it doesn't exist when I have small faction stuff that has doubled in value over a year. Hell RF points are 50% up on what they were last year

And i got faction stuff that halved in worth. My CNR My kronos,


Learn to READ.

My god you are stupid...

That CNR and kronos reduced in price doesnt mean my small faction stuff didnt decrease in price.


Not to mention it is compeltely irrelevant since your argument was that ISK inflation was a clear problem, as shown by the price of a few of your faction items. But if ISK inflation was a clear problem it should be visible on all items, not just a few select ones.

Derrick Lang
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:41:00 - [398]
 

More forum ****!
From an admin of a macro mining site/program.

Macro/automated mining has been a thorn in CCP's side since the beginning of the game. It always will be. Pilots are going to get banned.
This being said, if the users of this program will utilize it's stealth features AND NOT MINE 23.5 hours a day, as long as your not selling isk or rubbing it in their face, they (CCP) could really give a rats ass that your using the program.
The pilots that they are going after are the ones that are using programs that use their (EVE program) info or inject code into their servers. That's why the users of RoidRipper were banned. Now everyone of those accounts will be watched and tracked, when and 'if' they let them back in.
As to the accounts that have been banned using GS, I believe that pretty much everyone of them has owned up to the fact that they were mining way too much and not using the Stealth Features that GS has. All I can say to these pilots is 'shame on you' for being greedy.
The one thing that everyone needs to remember is the fact that every unit of ore that the program mines for you, puts you ahead of the game because your not having to do it yourself.
Everyone wants efficiency and the best yield they can get. Come on guys/galls... isn't GS a bit more efficient than you would be if you were doing it? Don't abuse something that works and you don't really need to worry about getting banned.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:49:00 - [399]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/04/2011 15:32:33
Quote:
*don't tell me it doesn't exist when I have small faction stuff that has doubled in value over a year. Hell RF points are 50% up on what they were last year

And i got faction stuff that halved in worth. My CNR My kronos,


Learn to READ.

My god you are stupid...

That CNR and kronos reduced in price doesnt mean my small faction stuff didnt decrease in price.


Not to mention it is compeltely irrelevant since your argument was that ISK inflation was a clear problem, as shown by the price of a few of your faction items. But if ISK inflation was a clear problem it should be visible on all items, not just a few select ones.


You're defending what? Remind me again? Its NOT removing bounties from belt rats in sov space yes? Which is pretty much what everyone in this thread who referenced a dotlan set of npc kills stats is talking about?

I've made my mind up about you old lad (been wondering for about 10 days or so) - you're another talking shop trying to obfuscate the targets.

Keep trying sunshine - people can contrast what you say and what I say easy enough.

Make your own minds up people - nobody much cares one way or another anyway.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:01:00 - [400]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 19/04/2011 16:04:23
Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/04/2011 15:34:05
Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/04/2011 15:32:33
Quote:
*don't tell me it doesn't exist when I have small faction stuff that has doubled in value over a year. Hell RF points are 50% up on what they were last year

And i got faction stuff that halved in worth. My CNR that i bought 3 years ago or something with faction modules is now worth something like 70% of when i bought it. My kronos, that i bought long after the introduction, also saw a similar drop in worth. As nice indication of mineral prices, t1 BS are also down in price compared to lets say a year ago.

The ISK inflation in eve is nothing significant, and certainly way smaller than other inflations, like power creep. Look at supercap inflation, that is enormous compared to ISK inflation and a much larger problem. And guess what is responsible for supercap inflation, exactly those bots that you dont care about.


Quote:
Who the **** is defending bots you clueless piece of ****?

Me?

Ahahahahaha that'll be right.


Yes you were the one saying you didnt have much of a problem with the majority of the bots.


While you are correct, the ISK you recieve from selling minerals obtained with BOTs comes from other players, it does not directly create more ISK as bounties do.

Perhaps I mis-spoke myself.

The economy is harmed due to the massive influx of cheap "resources" into the economy. ISK injection into the economy causes more direct harm, the influx of massive amounts of cheap resources causes indirect harm. It devalues the time spent and undermines real players, invalidating whole area's of player activity.

It also decreases the value of everything a player might manufacture, as people easily create the items themselves with no real investment of time on their part (supercaps among others). In a thriving, bot free economy people specialise in different area's, and are forced to make strategic decision about how they spend their game time to make ISK and equipment. With bot use, these decisions are rendered moot.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:06:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: Grakhan


That's what I'm saying. Getting into a ban war with the bots is going to be fruitless. You have a system that is capable of being automated, that is your main problem. While that is the case, there will be bots to take advantage of it. You may ban some people, for a time, but as we've discovered these bots will just become more and more intelligent as measures and then counter-measures are developed. Why go down this path when the overall system is broken? Accept this and begin the process of either repairing or creating a new system.


A bot can drive a rover on Mars. Goggle has bots driving cars in traffic. A bot is world chess champion. A bot is the jepardy champion. The on-line poker sites are fighting with bots, on poker, a direct PvP game.

To me it looks like it is no longer possible to make a game that can not be botted and is still playable by a person. CCP cannot make a game that cannot be automated because all games can be automated.

Give up the idea that content changes will defeat the bots. Its not going to happen. Content changes can stop the most primitive of the bots, but that's all.

Also for an OCR bot to defeat the hardware overlay: Point a web cam at the screen.

I think the CCP comprehensive method has the best chance.

I checked out the local ice belt yesterday. 25 miners. No idea what it was a few days ago, but Ill check today.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:07:00 - [402]
 

All bots degrade the effort a (real) player puts in.

The bots which generate new ISK degrade the effort of ALL real players.

The bots which generate in-game resources degrade the effort of all real players in that area.

You can also argue that RMT'rs would target new isk as it has been pretty much risk-free - provided you pay the rent.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:21:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Othran
All bots degrade the effort a (real) player puts in.

The bots which generate new ISK degrade the effort of ALL real players.

The bots which generate in-game resources degrade the effort of all real players in that area.

You can also argue that RMT'rs would target new isk as it has been pretty much risk-free - provided you pay the rent.


I think we are on the same page, I just worded things badly originally.

Mining BOT control is a good place to start, but the largest degree of "direct" harm comes from ratting bots by far. I totally agree in that regard.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:24:00 - [404]
 

Directly from a bot forum by who appears to be the creator:

Quote:
The main question is not when your bot will be banned. Level replacement in advance and you will be with isks all the time. The main question is how to avoid mass ban. Dont make private transfers from your bot to main and back. Use public methods. Sell nonrefined ore for cheap, install regional order with your main to buy this ore. Refine, get money. Use money you bot gain from these sales to buy PLEXs for bot, better equipment, hulks etc. You will get less income of cause but will NEVER care about if your bot can get banned soon.


So... find apparent bots in a system and go .01 above the local buy price? Just a thought (no guarantees it's a good one)

Vantoth
Gallente
Master of None
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:53:00 - [405]
 

Edited by: Vantoth on 19/04/2011 17:05:29
Edited by: Vantoth on 19/04/2011 17:04:32
Originally by: Grakhan
I find this thread hilarious. All of this anger at people who don't want to go through the boring mechanics of mining? Who should you be mad at? The people who are using a program that simulates keystrokes and mouse clicks, or the developers who have created a system so boring and trivial that simulated keystrokes and mouse clicks can accomplish it.

Like it or not you have one of two options to solve this issue for good.

1.) Create a more involved and engaging mining process. Don't just add fluff that requires you to prove that you aren't a bot, as the only thing you will achieve is a more annoying system for the normal user. Why do you think there are no bots for mission running? Because the missions are different with different objectives that can't be simulated.

OR

2.) Incorporate and embrace an automated process for mining. You could accomplish by creating new items in the game called "Mining AI." You could then have different levels of the AI, such that each level of the AI increases the usefulness of your bot. OR you could go the route of Planetary Management and make it something where you have to set up a mining outpost of your own and manage it that way.

Whatever the solution, you can't honestly tell me in a game with star ships and all of this technology that the races involved would be sitting in an asteroid belt, clicking a button and watching it mine.

Don't treat the symptom, treat the actual problem!


OK, so lets just make the game like botting, we all just log in, press a couple of keys,one for mining, one for moon goo, one for PVP, one for mission running. That way there is nothing that can be construed as "boring" other than playing the game Itself.

The "problem is" not everybody likes doing the same thing. Some people actually enjoy mining, others enjoy running missions, others enjoy PVP, even others love playing the market. But to each of them some of if not all the other things are "boring" and something they do not want to do. So should we just make all the boring parts like mining bots? you log in, sell your ores and log out and never really play? Just click a few buttons and get ISK?.

Some people will always cheat no matter what, they will somehow try and gain an advantage over other players by using Bots, hacks and macros. Why do they do this? Because they are so self centered they feel the game is just for them and they could care less about that what they are doing affects everyone else in the game in some way.

TL/DR
If you suck so bad at the game you have to use a bot to make money then the game is not for you, go play something else you might actually enjoy.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:11:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Furb Killer
My god you are stupid...

That CNR and kronos reduced in price doesnt mean my small faction stuff didnt decrease in price.


Not to mention it is compeltely irrelevant since your argument was that ISK inflation was a clear problem, as shown by the price of a few of your faction items. But if ISK inflation was a clear problem it should be visible on all items, not just a few select ones.


You're defending what? Remind me again? Its NOT removing bounties from belt rats in sov space yes? Which is pretty much what everyone in this thread who referenced a dotlan set of npc kills stats is talking about?

I've made my mind up about you old lad (been wondering for about 10 days or so) - you're another talking shop trying to obfuscate the targets.

Keep trying sunshine - people can contrast what you say and what I say easy enough.

Make your own minds up people - nobody much cares one way or another anyway.

So because i want to ban all bots i am pro botting, right..

Meanwhile your first sentence is impossible to understand, but yes i am defending NOT removing npc bounties in 0.0 since that would only harm real players and benefit botters.

Grakhan
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:13:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena

A bot can drive a rover on Mars. Goggle has bots driving cars in traffic. A bot is world chess champion. A bot is the jepardy champion. The on-line poker sites are fighting with bots, on poker, a direct PvP game.

To me it looks like it is no longer possible to make a game that can not be botted and is still playable by a person. CCP cannot make a game that cannot be automated because all games can be automated.

Give up the idea that content changes will defeat the bots. Its not going to happen. Content changes can stop the most primitive of the bots, but that's all.

Also for an OCR bot to defeat the hardware overlay: Point a web cam at the screen.

I think the CCP comprehensive method has the best chance.

I checked out the local ice belt yesterday. 25 miners. No idea what it was a few days ago, but Ill check today.


I will not give up that idea. It hasn't even been attempted and you are dismissing the point. For me personally, I would hope this discussion leads to a more engaging mining system. From the feed back I've received it seems like most people would agree that the mining system could and should be reworked.

At the very least, if you make it an engaging and interesting system you rid yourselves of the people who mine out of boredom. You are right, you will never get rid of botting 100%, but the harder you make it to accomplish, the more people will give up on it because they are lazy. You are then left with the hard-core botters that you're never going to be able to do anything about besides the occasional ban.

And then what. Let's say you ban most of them. Are the people who have more time to mine than you next? They have an unfair advantage because they can spend more time mining, right? If you level the playing field then it doesn't matter.

I'm sorry, if you enjoy going to a 2nd job (which is high sec mininig) then I think you need some therapy or maybe need to get outside at some point.


Grakhan
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:21:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: Vantoth
Edited by: Vantoth on 19/04/2011 17:05:29
Edited by: Vantoth on 19/04/2011 17:04:32

OK, so lets just make the game like botting, we all just log in, press a couple of keys,one for mining, one for moon goo, one for PVP, one for mission running. That way there is nothing that can be construed as "boring" other than playing the game Itself.

The "problem is" not everybody likes doing the same thing. Some people actually enjoy mining, others enjoy running missions, others enjoy PVP, even others love playing the market. But to each of them some of if not all the other things are "boring" and something they do not want to do. So should we just make all the boring parts like mining bots? you log in, sell your ores and log out and never really play? Just click a few buttons and get ISK?.

Some people will always cheat no matter what, they will somehow try and gain an advantage over other players by using Bots, hacks and macros. Why do they do this? Because they are so self centered they feel the game is just for them and they could care less about that what they are doing affects everyone else in the game in some way.

TL/DR
If you suck so bad at the game you have to use a bot to make money then the game is not for you, go play something else you might actually enjoy.


No one is suggesting that. That's why I included ideas with my post. Now they represent 2 extremes, one extreme would be incorporating the botting for mining and the flip side would be making the system so passive that botting doesn't get you anything.

I would be happy to hear other ideas but let's not pretend like mining isn't mind-numbingly boring.

You could even go so far as keeping Veldspar in the noob systems so that you can learn mining and then move EVERY other mineral out to lo sec so that there is a possibility of players policing it themselves.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:31:00 - [409]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 19/04/2011 17:33:07
Originally by: Grakhan
Originally by: Vantoth
Edited by: Vantoth on 19/04/2011 17:05:29
Edited by: Vantoth on 19/04/2011 17:04:32

OK, so lets just make the game like botting, we all just log in, press a couple of keys,one for mining, one for moon goo, one for PVP, one for mission running. That way there is nothing that can be construed as "boring" other than playing the game Itself.

The "problem is" not everybody likes doing the same thing. Some people actually enjoy mining, others enjoy running missions, others enjoy PVP, even others love playing the market. But to each of them some of if not all the other things are "boring" and something they do not want to do. So should we just make all the boring parts like mining bots? you log in, sell your ores and log out and never really play? Just click a few buttons and get ISK?.

Some people will always cheat no matter what, they will somehow try and gain an advantage over other players by using Bots, hacks and macros. Why do they do this? Because they are so self centered they feel the game is just for them and they could care less about that what they are doing affects everyone else in the game in some way.

TL/DR
If you suck so bad at the game you have to use a bot to make money then the game is not for you, go play something else you might actually enjoy.


No one is suggesting that. That's why I included ideas with my post. Now they represent 2 extremes, one extreme would be incorporating the botting for mining and the flip side would be making the system so passive that botting doesn't get you anything.

I would be happy to hear other ideas but let's not pretend like mining isn't mind-numbingly boring.

You could even go so far as keeping Veldspar in the noob systems so that you can learn mining and then move EVERY other mineral out to lo sec so that there is a possibility of players policing it themselves.


I have always been a proponent of moving mid-range ore to low sec only.

Again, I don't think anyone will complain that making mining more entertaining would be a bad thing (well, some might), but being bored with mining is not the root cause of botting. Greed is.

Not to mention that improving the mining system would do nothing to touch the even more harmful ratting bots, or market bots, or mission bots...

Your focus (while not without merit) is only on one small piece of the problem.

Edit: Re-balancing the game to incorporate bots would be a quick ticket to the majority of people that enjoy playing EVE leaving. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:33:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer

Meanwhile your first sentence is impossible to understand


I've noticed this you know - you seem to be quite capable of understanding people until a certain point is reached Wink

I'll let the masses decide - or not which is more probable Very Happy

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:46:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Furb Killer

Meanwhile your first sentence is impossible to understand


I've noticed this you know - you seem to be quite capable of understanding people until a certain point is reached Wink

I'll let the masses decide - or not which is more probable Very Happy

Of course you could have mentioned if I understood you correct (that you seriously think removing bounties from 0.0 hurts bots more than humans), or you could have clarified it, but no you continue your trolling spree. Good news about that is that maybe all your posts about leaving all bots alone which are not directly generating isk was also a troll.

Talking btw about ignoring posts, you seem to be pretty good at ignoring the posts that tried to explain you that a few small faction modules increasing in price is not exactly a sign of inflation.


Woody Hill
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:15:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: I C U
So I finally made my way out to the 0.0 and found myself a team of potential macroers to afk-grief. The team was 4 Ravens, a Drake, and an indy (found on d-scan).

I found them at 2:30am UTC. I warped to a belt with some wrecks, and waited for a bit to see if they'd cycle through ratting. They didn't.

45 minutes later I found them sitting at an unarmed POS, complete with ship maintenance thing, and corp hangar.

Less than 2 hours after my arrival one of them tried talking to me in local, but I was in bed.

8 hours later I turn on my monitor after a hard night's sleep, and they're still sitting at the POS.

Now I just need to figure out remote desktop, and the griefing can escalate further.

Macro hours disrupted so far; 48.


Time to make your demands, see this thread for deatils

Bot Extortion

Grakhan
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:25:00 - [413]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 19/04/2011 17:33:07

I have always been a proponent of moving mid-range ore to low sec only.

Again, I don't think anyone will complain that making mining more entertaining would be a bad thing (well, some might), but being bored with mining is not the root cause of botting. Greed is.

Not to mention that improving the mining system would do nothing to touch the even more harmful ratting bots, or market bots, or mission bots...

Your focus (while not without merit) is only on one small piece of the problem.

Edit: Re-balancing the game to incorporate bots would be a quick ticket to the majority of people that enjoy playing EVE leaving. I'm sorry, but it's true.



And maybe this is because I'm only thinking of Miner bots (Because that is the only thing that this mining bot program allows you to do if you look at the website). I'm not suggesting letting there be bots for every aspect of the game. I would find it hard to believe that there are mission bots that can handle missions that give you significant amounts of ISK.

And then as devil's advocate...
At the end of the day I think I'm just a fan of civil liberties. I don't feel like CCP has any right to tell me what programs can and can't be on my computer if the program does not in someway affect the client. These packet sniffing bots, sure ban them all. But if you go look at this mining bot that is being mentioned, it simulates mouse and keystrokes and technically is all of the same user interface that a normal player goes through. It may be a silly distinction, but I see it as an important one.

Vantoth
Gallente
Master of None
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:32:00 - [414]
 

Edited by: Vantoth on 19/04/2011 18:47:42
Originally by: Grakhan

No one is suggesting that. That's why I included ideas with my post. Now they represent 2 extremes, one extreme would be incorporating the botting for mining and the flip side would be making the system so passive that botting doesn't get you anything.

I would be happy to hear other ideas but let's not pretend like mining isn't mind-numbingly boring.

You could even go so far as keeping Veldspar in the noob systems so that you can learn mining and then move EVERY other mineral out to lo sec so that there is a possibility of players policing it themselves.


OK you suggest that moving everything but Veld to lo-sec will keep mining from being boring? Nope, it will curtail mining. Those that mine in high sec do it because it is much safer then mining in lo-sec. All moving mining to lo-sec would do is create more targets for the lo-sec pirates and do nothing to keep mining from being boring. While you would have to be scanning every few seconds to keep from getting ganked it would still be boring. You might get a few people to mine in lo-sec if they had guards and such, but who is going to sit in a roid belt waiting for their partner to be attacked? That would be even more boring as hell. Plus many of the lo-sec pirates would never attack once they realized their prey had protection.

So instead of doing something as nuts as that how about make the veld belts spawn like normal in High sec, and have all the other ores that spawn in high-sec have to be scanned down to mine. Unless they have bots that are able to scan with reliability that kind of solves one problem. By making asteroid belts having to be scanned should curtail even ratting bots.

T'Laar Bok
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:48:00 - [415]
 

Originally by: Grakhan
You could even go so far as keeping Veldspar in the noob systems so that you can learn mining and then move EVERY other mineral out to lo sec so that there is a possibility of players policing it themselves.


So the miner gets punished because s/he cant find anyone who is willing to sit beside them for hours on end as a guard?

Are you volunteering? Yesterday I only mined for 11hrs, come join me, it'll be great fun.

Even with guards you usually lose your hulk anyway because they pop so easily.





Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:01:00 - [416]
 

Guys, let's not get into a heated debate here about who said what. That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about providing intel on the effects of CCP's banhammer on the botting community (which I personally hate).

For Grakhan, I suggest you re-evaluate what you think about bot users.

People who use bots are just greedy. They don't care how repetitive a job is. If they can somehow automate it, then they will do it for the sake of gaining an unfair advantage over other players. I understand that Eve Online is about trying to get ahead, but since Eve Online is also based on an old American economics model, it's also about fair competition. But against, bot users don't care about fair competition. All they care about is trying to automate anything they see in any MMO regardless if it's more engaging than mining like PvE or PI.

Also, please look at Eve Online's past.

Back then, mining was considered a fun profession as mineral costs were high at the time and it didn't take much to just sit there and mine for a couple of hours a day. But then... someone decided to automate that and make a mining bot that can sit on a belt for 23/7 and then... profit. Since then, the price of minerals went down as more people found out about mining bots. New and old players that (legitimately) sit on their computers for a few hours a day saw that they cannot make the same amount of profit like they did anymore because of these bots. So... they moved on to PvE and Ratting. But then someone automated that part of the game as well. Then someone automated the courier missions, and then the market buy/sell orders, and then the auction items, and now PI. So far, PvP is all that's left... because there is no profit to be made from it unless you're a mercenary. What this means is that no matter how hard CCP tries to make mining, ratting, etc. more engaging, botters will also try to automate the process. It just boils down to greed. Nothing more.

But anyways, my point is that we (legitimate) players are fed up with bots. There is nothing anyone can do to convince us to accept the very existence of bots in our Eve Universe. We don't like them, we hate them, and we will (if needed) kill them. And as Hulkageddon has proven, there is definitely no shortage of players willing to pickup a 1400 Mealstrom to gank a bot.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:03:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Grakhan
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 19/04/2011 17:33:07

I have always been a proponent of moving mid-range ore to low sec only.

Again, I don't think anyone will complain that making mining more entertaining would be a bad thing (well, some might), but being bored with mining is not the root cause of botting. Greed is.

Not to mention that improving the mining system would do nothing to touch the even more harmful ratting bots, or market bots, or mission bots...

Your focus (while not without merit) is only on one small piece of the problem.

Edit: Re-balancing the game to incorporate bots would be a quick ticket to the majority of people that enjoy playing EVE leaving. I'm sorry, but it's true.



And maybe this is because I'm only thinking of Miner bots (Because that is the only thing that this mining bot program allows you to do if you look at the website). I'm not suggesting letting there be bots for every aspect of the game. I would find it hard to believe that there are mission bots that can handle missions that give you significant amounts of ISK.

And then as devil's advocate...
At the end of the day I think I'm just a fan of civil liberties. I don't feel like CCP has any right to tell me what programs can and can't be on my computer if the program does not in someway affect the client. These packet sniffing bots, sure ban them all. But if you go look at this mining bot that is being mentioned, it simulates mouse and keystrokes and technically is all of the same user interface that a normal player goes through. It may be a silly distinction, but I see it as an important one.


It's easy to miss in this thread, but we have been keeping an eye on the ratting bot sites as well. However they have not been affected yet, so the focus has been on the mining bot sites.

Mission bots primarily do courier missions. They are very simple to automate.

Sometimes the distinction is fine, but there IS a difference between an acceptable tool that helps organize your game play... and a bot that automates your game play. CCP is well within their rights to determine what can and what cannot be used in conjunction with their software. Remember, you do not own the software, you do not own your assets, you do not own your ISK. You pay for the privilege of using CCPs stuff within the limitations they prescribe.

The distinction you make is not silly, you have a reasonable point of view, but it isn't applicable in this case.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:47:00 - [418]
 

Edited by: Vincent Athena on 19/04/2011 20:53:24
Originally by: Grakhan
.........
I don't feel like CCP has any right to tell me what programs can and can't be on my computer if the program does not in someway affect the client......


CCP does not claim the right to tell you what programs you have on your computer. They claim the right to enforce the EULA you agreed to, and the right to how their server is accessed.


Edit: Oops, forgot my war report: Ice prices have stabilized at a new, higher level. The PLEX also seems to be stable. Minerals continue a slow downward trend. So far bot bans have not had any major disruption, the biggest minor one being ice.

I chacked out the ice field nearby. 40 miners today, 25 yesterday. Only a couple had really strange names. None paniced when my Proteus went zooming down the length of the belt.

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:55:00 - [419]
 

quit the debate guys, this thread is for botter tears :)

Reporting from the trading floor.

Trit volumes seem to be going slightly up again, from mid/high 20b to mid 30's and even 42b three days ago.

Isogen continues to climb but also here the volumes have been picking up the last couple of days.

Word reached me that yesterday someone dumped quite a load on buys orders in Rens. Legit? or returning botter?

Basic implant prices have remained quite stable which corresponds with the rumour that courier bots seem untouched up to now.

PLEX prices seem to reached a plateau level of 360ish.



Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:20:00 - [420]
 

There is just ONE way to handle BOTs: perma ban EVERYBODY who
- use them
- tollerat them in their "teretory" (ak EVERY 0-sec allay/corp wich does not fight them)
- buy stuff from BOT users out of game

Any other method will never work as BOT user can't care less about something stupid like a temp-ban :(.

In addition:
- DELATE any char used for BOTing
- record IP adress
- generate unique Computer ID calculated out of CPU-ID, GPU-ID, Mainboard-ID
- BLOCK this unique IDs as soon as it is used for BOTing
- BLOCK IP when it appears more then once used by a BOTer


Pages: first : previous : ... 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 ... : last (44)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only