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NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 17:40:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 06/04/2011 22:44:45

Time for some investigative journalism.

Editors Notes: If this is the first time you are reading this thread, I have tried to simplify it and have turned my 3rd post into a "Headliners post". There I will post any major updates I find, so you guys don't have to go sifting threw 200 posts trying to find out what's going on.

For those of you curious about how the new CCP "slow burn" effect is having on Eve's bot population, I have taken the liberty to check it out and looked into these macros. I am offering this service solely for informational purposes only. I am in no way advertising or supporting these macro companies, nor am I backing CCP. This is solely for you the reader to be as up-to-date as possible in this conflict.

For the sake of the rules, I cannot disclose specifically where I got this information. I can tell you that I have joined several forums from several different macro websites. And I'm looking for one thing, the "I've been banned" thread. I want to see if what CCP is doing is having any kind of impact on the Eve market, and the Bot market.

Right now, I have found 2 prominate websites that have top search engine rankings (therefore high sales) that I beleive many bot users are using. Each of these websites have several thousand people registured in their forums. I will refer to them as "Website A" and "website B"

Again, for the fear of getting this thread locked, I cannot link these websites. You're gonna have to take my word on this.

I am going to post quotes that I have found on these websites. we'll start with "Website A". These posts started trickeling in only days after the fanfest video was released.

"Got 14-day bans on 3 accounts.. "Banned for macro usage". I didn't even use bot with one of the banned accounts. I wasn't eveen using a mining bot, I was using a tradebot with 2 accounts however. I wonder how they detect this "macro usage". And yeah I've read people getting 3-day bans, and I got 14 (first bans ever). 14 days is quite long time, not sure if I'll be back to the game.. And no, you can't have my stuff "

"Well, I've been banned today for the first time after long long while.

I became too careless I guess, I admit it.

Anyways, I'm interested in your opinions. Is it worth to use the same toons for micro mining again, or get new ones? What is your experience on this??"


"Several of bot users reported that they were banned for using macro in 1-2 day intervals. It looks like CCP started banhammer. I think it is good idea to wait while this event ends"

"I took a break from mining for several days after the security presentation during fanfest. I mined the "normal" way for several hours each day, did PI, and acted like a normal player. I tested by mining for 3 hours one night, during my normal play window. I got a 14 day ban the next day. I would be careful guys, the point of doing a "slow boil" is to fine tune the detection methods they're using to minimize the false positives. My expectation is as they fine tune the process, they will become more aggressive in banning accounts. In the meantime, it's been fun, but I've got enough of a bankroll to make isk on trading and industry. I'll stop while I'm ahead."


NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 17:42:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 06/04/2011 22:45:16

Editors Comment: This one was posted by the FORUM OWNER and coder of said macro

"We should delete topics related to banhammers from forums. This is for your safety, guys. It is a war and we should not show how effective CCP can be. I will delete all topics related to bans after I release new version."

Editors comment: I should note, that In response to the bannings I found several threads with posts like this:

"What the hell is fun in circeling around some rocks and, now and than, fight some idiotic pixels, from which you get stupid ****, not even worth selling...For the Eve guys who read in this forums Please ban my account for botting! It would give me back some time to do useful things."

"Mining is stupid and boring, macro miners exists because CCP built a flawed game. **** it, if they want to ban the only REAL thing that's keeping the game going, I'm just gonna delete my **** and move on."

Onward to "Website B"

"Website B" had fewer posts about banning. It could be an indication that CCP hasn't yet caught up with this particular macro miner program. Or they are good on maintenance and don't wanna spread panic...fortunitaly I excell at spreading panic Razz I did some digging and only found 1 releated thread:

FOrum Owner posts this on Jan 27th

"Nothing's gonna happen, so just relax."

four weeks later, and next 5 replys on that thread sound something like this:

"One of mine just copped a 14 day ban for "Macro use"

Been mining 14/7 with random breaks for 6 months and then POW... banned"


My Fellow Eve players, bare in mind that I was only able to find these threads. Out of thousands of accounts, only these existed.

I'll endevor to keep you all informed of anything new that I find.



For the sake of reporting everything, I did find some responses that delt with evading the ban detection. They suggested only using the macro a few hours a day, chaning the code to make it look more humna/randome. Some even had 'automated responces' when convo'd. One guy even claimed he has 4 accounts he switches betten and mines 3 hours each on. I was unable to find any posts where he got banned.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 17:44:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 13/05/2011 23:17:16



EDIT: This post will change Daily, based on new events

***********************************************************************************
SO, this post has officially become my "headliner post". Every major shift/update I find will be posted here.

UPDATE: I have created a in-game channel called Bot Grief.
Feel free to join it and discuss/hunt the bots.

***********************************************************************************



TODAYS HEADLINES - UPDATED Friday MAY 13TH (USA time)




Most up-to-date report Found on the bottom of page 26. Read all about it,


We may have found a "Website D" to research. Thanks goes to Derrick Lang, as he was the one to find them and post on page 26. I'll be checking them out.


Our little movement has caught the attention of other online websites. NosyGamer.com has written a blog about us. Fell free to check them out.

Read all about this and more on page 26.

Older headlines:



Reality sets in for botters as the mineral market starts a steady recovery from the banns. Mineral prices have been reported dropping in Jita.

Website C AKA "Roid Ripper" has been down for several days. Not only that, their forums are now for sale. I'm ready to call this fight. It has long been my suspicion that when the banhammer came down, CCP metaphorically pointed at RR and said "You're First". I'd like to give recognition to Othran for possibly having a hand in bringing down their domain as well.


Round two is been kicked off, and botters are feeling the pinch of strike two on their accounts. Several 1-month bans have been reported


ALL THREE WEBSITES that I have infiltrated are reporting banns. Even the ones that have 'restricted' postings. Well, I guess 2 of the 3 sites have reported banns....the 3rd site is still down and out. Sorry DD, I think you lost!

additional confirmed reports that both the bots accounts and their related non-bot pvp accounts have been banned...read more on page 21

Araknus Prime has made a few debatable points on page 9. It's well written and non affensive and I'd like to see more oponions on this topic, feel free to post, but try not to get into a flame war ;)

Website A has found this thread, a few concerned posts in their forum has drawn my attention.

Othran continues to steel my thunder :P and **** off the botters, GG Orthan.

Read all about it on page 10 (page 9 for Arkanus's post)

The bot programmers have found my thread, some have deleted their "I've been banned thread", and Daredevil of Website C has written me a message.

Read about it on page 8, towards the bottom.


Ratting bot users claim they are not violating CCP's EULA.

"As long as ... consistent to EVE-Online’s EULA and as such is 100% legal!"

Website B has deployed a broken patch in an attempt to fix CCP's banhammer.

Confirmed that CCP is banning paying accounts, not just plex'd accounts.

Read more on bottem of page 7!!

Website C has crashed, Bot programmers have pulled their product off the market Read more on page 5




CCP Sreegs has showed his support to the gamers and OP of this thread. he was quoted saying:
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
For the OP, while we do the work ourselves as well if you have bots that you think might be of interest to us feel free to send a mail to security@ccpgames.com. I'm far from perfect and getting information from the players such as this can point out gaps in what we have already looked into.



The top of Page 4 of this thread has information regarding the discovery of "Website C"




Related topics:



Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.04 17:46:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Jon Taggart on 04/04/2011 17:47:06

Why only 14 days? Get rid of them. Permanently.

Wipe them out. All of them.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 17:51:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 11/05/2011 21:48:20
Originally by: Jon Taggart
Edited by: Jon Taggart on 04/04/2011 17:47:06

Why only 14 days? Get rid of them. Permanently.

Wipe them out. All of them.


Remember the security meeting stated that there will be a 3-strike you're out deal. 1st strike is 14 days. 2nd is a month, 3rd is perma.

I beleive this is fare. There are some bot users that where only using it for a cheap buck that will probably stop and still want to play eve.

They cheated, they got "spanked by the parents", they stopped. Sounds fare to me!

EDIT: Spelling

Lucia Sarain
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.04 17:55:00 - [6]
 

Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.04.04 17:57:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Burnharder on 04/04/2011 17:58:28
Great post Ninja.

Threads about bans on bot forums probably aren't good for business, so I expect they get squashed rather quickly (I'm guessing the bot writer has written a bot to ban the ban threads YARRRR!!).

Also, Lucia makes a good point. Can you see ban history before you purchase a character? Probably not. This would seem to be something of a flaw in the system. Banned for botting accounts should be flagged in their "info" :p.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:02:00 - [8]
 

Especially like the BS from that one site owner, about how removing people talking about getting banned for using his program is somehow protecting them. He just wants suckers to keep buying his program, even if they are getting banned.

If it was my decision, i'd go for one strike being thinking about botting, the second strike putting a botting program on your computer, and the 3rd strike being using it.

3 strikes for using one just allows the makers to better fine tune ways to avoid detection, but we'll have to wait and see how bulletproof the detection is.

Mister Rocknrolla
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:04:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



I'm not sure I understand this.
Person gets caught botting and gets 14-day ban.
Sells char after ban expires (I assume impossible to sell while banned).
New owner...what? Bots again and complains about a 30-day ban?

AFAIK, there is no outward indication that a char was ever banned...no scarlet "B" on your avatar or anything (though...that DOES sound like a good idea)

I think the ban is applied to the account, not the char...so the banning history as far as CCP is concerned is non-transferable.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:05:00 - [10]
 

It does raise an important point though. If activities like Mining were more dynamic, interactive, and engaging, would it make it unbottable? Also, if the activity was fun and enjoyable, would people bot in the first place?

I'm sure some still will. Plenty of lazy types out there.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:12:00 - [11]
 

I agree, I have posted a few topics about making mining funner. And I really think it needs an overhaul.

However, the players have pushed for the ban hammer vs bots. I have no doubt that if mining gets to horrible, they will push for a 'revamp mining' approach and CCP will respond.

I'm impressed with the amount of power the players have here. +1 to the anarachy republic of Eve.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:14:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



Well, that's a solid point and a good question to be answered.

Does anyone here know how the selling-a-char thing works? Can we maybe have a dev/forum mod comment on this? Where's Akita T when you need him, I bet he'd know. I'd assume that the ban would be account related, not charachter releated.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:17:00 - [13]
 

Great post Ninja...happy to see CCP's recent efforts are indeed having an impact. I for one support a "1 warning and you're permabanned" policy.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:22:00 - [14]
 

I'm happy with the 3 then permaban personally.

I browse various bot forums and /petition the idiots posting screenshots when asking for help with their bots and don't take their character names out of the screenshots.

Maybe I should take another tour here and read some tasty tears. YARRRR!!

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:24:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



This needs to be done for sure. Because it would be unfair to saddle the buyer of a character with the TOS violations of the previous owner.

Or what CCP could do is permaban character transfers from accounts with a record for bans for botting.

Jireel
CANUCK ENGINERING
Fade 2 Black
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:24:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
I agree, I have posted a few topics about making mining funner. And I really think it needs an overhaul.

However, the players have pushed for the ban hammer vs bots. I have no doubt that if mining gets to horrible, they will push for a 'revamp mining' approach and CCP will respond.

I'm impressed with the amount of power the players have here. +1 to the anarachy republic of Eve.

Actually... I like mining how it is, because it allows me to do something else, like reading a book / working / playing another game while still making money. I know I could go for other types of passive income, but still, I kinda like it.
Oh, and before someone says i'm macroing, I doubt I could do that in wormhole space asteroid belts.

Mister Rocknrolla
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:31:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan


This needs to be done for sure. Because it would be unfair to saddle the buyer of a character with the TOS violations of the previous owner.



Again, I have to ask: what is the new owner being "saddled" with?


Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:32:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Jireel
Originally by: NinjaSpud
I agree, I have posted a few topics about making mining funner. And I really think it needs an overhaul.

However, the players have pushed for the ban hammer vs bots. I have no doubt that if mining gets to horrible, they will push for a 'revamp mining' approach and CCP will respond.

I'm impressed with the amount of power the players have here. +1 to the anarachy republic of Eve.

Actually... I like mining how it is, because it allows me to do something else, like reading a book / working / playing another game while still making money. I know I could go for other types of passive income, but still, I kinda like it.
Oh, and before someone says i'm macroing, I doubt I could do that in wormhole space asteroid belts.


Have you been on fanfest at the CCP Pannel? :-D

Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr
PORSCHE AG
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:32:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 04/04/2011 18:33:52

About selling banned chars and buying new from char bazaar and putting it on new acc... well... i would like to see some things like...
-> no selling chars from banned account for 6 months after first ban... 2 years after second...
...or...
-> first ban - (minus) 2B in wallet... second ban -10B in wallet...

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:32:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jireel
Originally by: NinjaSpud
I agree, I have posted a few topics about making mining funner. And I really think it needs an overhaul.

However, the players have pushed for the ban hammer vs bots. I have no doubt that if mining gets to horrible, they will push for a 'revamp mining' approach and CCP will respond.

I'm impressed with the amount of power the players have here. +1 to the anarachy republic of Eve.

Actually... I like mining how it is, because it allows me to do something else, like reading a book / working / playing another game while still making money. I know I could go for other types of passive income, but still, I kinda like it.
Oh, and before someone says i'm macroing, I doubt I could do that in wormhole space asteroid belts.


Gameplay that allows "hands off" progression is what promotes botting in the first place. It's one of the most glaring issues with "progress bar" gameplay, and MMOs love it for some reason.

Jireel
CANUCK ENGINERING
Fade 2 Black
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:37:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Kristina Vanszar
Originally by: Jireel
Originally by: NinjaSpud
I agree, I have posted a few topics about making mining funner. And I really think it needs an overhaul.

However, the players have pushed for the ban hammer vs bots. I have no doubt that if mining gets to horrible, they will push for a 'revamp mining' approach and CCP will respond.

I'm impressed with the amount of power the players have here. +1 to the anarachy republic of Eve.

Actually... I like mining how it is, because it allows me to do something else, like reading a book / working / playing another game while still making money. I know I could go for other types of passive income, but still, I kinda like it.
Oh, and before someone says i'm macroing, I doubt I could do that in wormhole space asteroid belts.


Have you been on fanfest at the CCP Pannel? :-D

Considering the plane ticket is over 1k$, nope Sad
And yes I know it promotes botting and macroing... if it takes the removal of that type of gameplay to get rid of the bots, I could deal with it. But still, I like it as it is now.

Sryan
Posted - 2011.04.04 19:33:00 - [22]
 

you people should realise they do not sell their characters nice and fairly through the character bazaar, but their entire accounts via their networks, even if they get perma banned, A hulk ready acount will only set you back $40 for a new hulk/bot ready acount. This means illegal ISK/PLEX sellers only need to sell about 1,5 billion ISK/ 4 PLEX to even out their loss for the ban per account.

besides, CCP sees these ISK sellers and PLEX sellers as the real enemy, they damage the ISK and PLEX economies because they make those worth less.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:20:00 - [23]
 

I enjoy seeing statements like this...

Quote:
if they want to ban the only REAL thing that's keeping the game going, I'm just gonna delete my **** and move on."



It's interesting how people mentally justify the things that they do. They ignore the fact that if bots disappeared overnight the economy would improve drastically for all players.

Glutting the market with cheap minerals does not equal helping the economy or players. The only person it helps is yourself.

Shrator
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:28:00 - [24]
 

Totally awesome. Thanks for the updates ninja!

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:39:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
I enjoy seeing statements like this...

Quote:
if they want to ban the only REAL thing that's keeping the game going, I'm just gonna delete my **** and move on."



It's interesting how people mentally justify the things that they do. They ignore the fact that if bots disappeared overnight the economy would improve drastically for all players.

Glutting the market with cheap minerals does not equal helping the economy or players. The only person it helps is yourself.

glutting the market with enormous amounts of isk from macroing bounty rats is infinitely worse for eve economy. that macro miner (?) is being a pompous ass

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:42:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Soma Khan
Originally by: Ranger 1
I enjoy seeing statements like this...

Quote:
if they want to ban the only REAL thing that's keeping the game going, I'm just gonna delete my **** and move on."



It's interesting how people mentally justify the things that they do. They ignore the fact that if bots disappeared overnight the economy would improve drastically for all players.

Glutting the market with cheap minerals does not equal helping the economy or players. The only person it helps is yourself.

glutting the market with enormous amounts of isk from macroing bounty rats is infinitely worse for eve economy. that macro miner (?) is being a pompous ass


Agreed on all counts.

Elanor Vega
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:55:00 - [27]
 

I am concerned about this:

Originally by: NinjaSpud

Onward to "Website B"

"Website B" had fewer posts about banning. It could be an indication that CCP hasn't yet caught up with this particular macro miner program. Or they are good on maintenance and don't wanna spread panic...fortunitaly I excell at spreading panic Razz I did some digging and only found 1 releated thread:

FOrum Owner posts this on Jan 27th

"Nothing's gonna happen, so just relax."

four weeks later, and next 5 replys on that thread sound something like this:

"One of mine just copped a 14 day ban for "Macro use"

Been mining 14/7 with random breaks for 6 months and then POW... banned"


Arrow My Fellow Eve players, bare in mind that I was only able to find these threads. Out of thousands of accounts, only these existed.

I'll endevor to keep you all informed of anything new that I find.



For the sake of reporting everything, I did find some responses that delt with evading the ban detection. They suggested only using the macro a few hours a day, chaning the code to make it look more humna/randome. Some even had 'automated responces' when convo'd. One guy even claimed he has 4 accounts he switches betten and mines 3 hours each on. I was unable to find any posts where he got banned.



I am concerned that thats true... that only fiew accounts of fiew thousands is banned...
and i am afraid that all will remain on that...

F'elch
Wall Street Trading
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:24:00 - [28]
 

Great post.

How about, the first time you are caught you get a 14 day ban and the isk on all characters on all accounts reduced to 0?


Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:25:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: F'elch
Great post.

How about, the first time you are caught you get a 14 day ban and the isk on all characters on all accounts reduced to 0?




I think the idea is to tell the player to not bot anymore, not make them quit immediately.

F'elch
Wall Street Trading
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:40:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Originally by: F'elch
Great post.

How about, the first time you are caught you get a 14 day ban and the isk on all characters on all accounts reduced to 0?




I think the idea is to tell the player to not bot anymore, not make them quit immediately.


It's not like being in negative balance. And I'm sure these people will have assets they can sell. I'm also sure that doing this would only be removing a small percentage of the isk they have gained unfairly.

But botters don't pay my wages, so I don't care if they do quit.


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