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blankseplocked Existing lore on pod brain scanner vs Jump Clones
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Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.01 18:12:00 - [1]

I'm trying to reconcile pod-popping infomorph transfers to a new clone with the way extra Jump Clones work.

I feel it's been well-established that pod technology from the Jove was what enabled the widespread use of clones as a means of granting immortality. We had the technology to transfer someone's 'self' to a new body prior to receiving pod technology, but it never really took off because the procedure had to be performed when the source brain was still alive, so it did nothing for accidental death. Also, the process effectively fries the source brain, so issues of whether the resulting clone was truly 'you' made it a very dubious thing to do. It was also mindblowingly expensive.

Pods put all those issues to rest. Each pod is equipped with all the required deep-scan devices, programmed to activate the very moment a breach in the pod's structure is detected. There's no hesitation about using the technology because if the pod breaches, you're a goner anyway. Money isn't an issue because the resulting immortality and immunity to risk makes massive wealth pretty much a certainty.

So, with the above established - please correct me if you have a source of contradicting lore - here is my dilemma:

If a deep-brain cloning scan destroys the brain, how do Jump Clones work? If I'm in station A and I have purchased a Jump Clone in Station B, and I jump to my clone in station B, why is it that the body I left in station A is still a valid destination to jump back to?

I'd understand if there was a requirement for there to be a medical facility in station A to perform a non-brain-scrambling scan to allow me to jump away, but that's not the case. It seems like when I jump out of station A, that body just sits in a pod for me to jump back to later.


Open Designs
Posted - 2011.04.01 18:48:00 - [2]

you can only JC from a station, to another station (or capship fitted with clone bays). Thus, stations must have some kind of non-lethal method of taking the snapshot of your brain activity without killing the clone.

as for jumping "back into" your pod directly, think it's more a limitation imposed by not having walking in stations (also, no need to bother showing them throw you in the pod, etc).

Esna Pitoojee
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.04.01 21:16:00 - [3]

A lot of players take the jump cloning process as evidence of a "soft scan" technique (as opposed to the capsule's "hard scan") which, at the cost of taking extra time to perform and requiring bulky machinery only available in a station and specific capital ships, allows a scan to be performed while retaining the integrity of the brain being scanned.

The scan is then sent to another clone which is woken up, while the scanned clone is dropped into stasis until your currently active clone is scanned and the whole process repeats itself, albeit reversed.

Wyke Mossari
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:12:00 - [4]

At the moment it's a bit hole in the lore, a non-destructive soft scan is the only explanation give the low cost, the clones must remain usable. I just don't like that, it requires to much hand waving.

I think they should really cost the same as a full clone and use a fully destructive with the full cost.

However they should be made more available to newbies, with reduced standing requirements, probably with larger numbers of jump clones requiring high standing as well as higher infomorph skills.

Posted - 2011.04.02 17:20:00 - [5]

And how do you avoid making implants and jump-clones mutually exclusive then?

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.04 01:42:00 - [6]

Thanks for all your thoughts on this.

What I'm getting is, basically, a wizard did it.

Doctor Carbonatite
Corporation for Public Broadcasting
Posted - 2011.04.10 15:56:00 - [7]

I got the impression in "Theodicy" that the Jovian Grious had himself "soft-scanned" immediately prior to having Faus kill him. Just another indication that the technology exists, not to mention the chronicle that deals with jump-cloning.

I would guess that it has something to do with the soft-scan technology being much more expensive. No reason to install soft-scan tech in a pod - when the pod needs to scan you, that clone is dead, be it by scanning or vacuum.

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.11 14:43:00 - [8]

But what if he wasn't killed after the soft scan? Doesn't that mean there are then 2 of him?

The very possibility of that makes the entire concept of a clone still being "you" rather sketchy indeed.

Unit XS365BT
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2011.04.12 12:51:00 - [9]


there are 2 types of scan available. the fast 'snapshot' scan that is taken upon pod breach, and the standard, lower intensity scan that is taken during the standard clone upgrade process and jumpclone process.

During a pod breach event there is not the time to complete a progressive neural scan, so to ensure that the capsuleer's infomorph data survives the death of a clone, the capsuller is injected with a nano-toxin, and the scan performed, all in a matter of instants...

while when jump-cloning, your 'older' self is simply sedated and hooked up to a CRU (Clone Reanimation Unit) to ensure that your previous clone remains safe but 'off' until you need it again.

so in essence, yes, there are multiple versions of every capsuleer with jump-clones in the cluster, but only one can be active at any time.

as for needing a medical facility?? while the growing of, and upgrade of, clones requires a specialised capsuleer medbay, (therefore to buy a JC in a station it needs to have one) most station medbays (non-capsuleer standard) will have the required technology to provide Clone Jump facilities, and can keep your vacated clone sedated until your return.

IMHO it is likely that there is some kind of warning sent to them when your infomorph data is sent back to a clone so that they can re-awaken it from it's sedated state.

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.12 19:12:00 - [10]

I believe I've come to the realization that my confusion over the distinction between scan methods is more existential than anything else.

Am I me because no one else is me? What would happen if I was copied and sedated? Would I see through my clone's eyes? Would I simply be asleep, and the clone is just an 'other'? If the clone IS me, then what would happen if both were conscious?

Ok, here's another one for you. Your original body and brain accumulate experiences, and then get copied to a clone. That clone lives a few years, adding experiences to the infomorph that is 'you'. Then that brain is copied back to your original body.

Did the original 'you' just get overwritten?

Unit XS365BT
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2011.04.12 19:51:00 - [11]

Edited by: Unit XS365BT on 12/04/2011 19:59:54
Edited by: Unit XS365BT on 12/04/2011 19:54:37
if we consider the way that, in EVE canon, infomorphic beings are seemingly meant to exist, then no, the original 'you' was no overwritten in the situation you stated.

while i can see no reference in canon for this, i believe that a true infomorph (capsuleers do not yet enter this category) would simply move their conciousness into a new body, the current scan-transfer method seems to be a stopgap leading to this, (dust 514 cloning perchance).

as for a capsuleer, during the time you are not inhabiting a clone, it is near enough in suspended animation. legal reasons i think, but it is by no means foolproof.. there is a chronicle about something like that i think.

basically IMHO, that part of your data that is indefinably 'you' is transferred somehow each time you jump to another clone. as if this was not the case, after your first podding, your soul, or spark, would be gone, you would just be a list of binary data transferred to biological storage.

Since at this time, that part of your brainwave activity that makes you who you are cannot be quantified it is difficult to explain how it could/would be transferred, but fortunately for the fiction, it is just as difficult to explain why it wouldn't :P

((edits - spelling))


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