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blankseplocked Ninja Salvaging is Theft ! Should I cancel my salvage Alt account ?
 
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CCP StevieSG

Posted - 2011.04.02 14:06:00 - [61]
 

Please keep comments constructive and on topic. Please note that personal attacks can lead to a warning or ban.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.04.02 15:44:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou
I have no idea why you would want to repeat that, especially since I never said it was Rolling Eyes
Yes you did. By adding points 1–11 on your list of what salvagers need to do, that's exactly what you did.

1-11 are for l4 mission running and 1-15 are for l4 mission NPC salvage
As you can see, I never claimed they were the same. Wink
Originally by: Tippia

And you agree with me, since you have no argument to the contrary

that is an argument from ignorance.

Originally by: Tippia
and have to resort to ad hominems instead.

which is exactly what you did here:
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:16:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou
here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.
Better idea: earn your salvage like everyone else and stop complaining about how the game doesn't give you stuff for free.

Subtle, but still applies.
By the way, that is also a spotlight fallacy and can be considered an appeal to ridicule (red herring) as well.

I presented an alternative in a civilized manner, you decided to step over the lines, I said "two can play that game" (ad hominem tu quoque).

But, since CCP decided to step in, I will stop here.Cool
cya.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.02 22:17:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
1-11 are for l4 mission running
In other words, they are of no relevant to salvaging.

So again: why does a salvager need standing?
Quote:
that is an argument from ignorance.
So provide an argument.
Quote:
Subtle, but still applies.
Nope. Saying that you are complaining is not arguing the man, but the claim — in this case that you provide no argument for why the change is needed.
Quote:
I presented an alternative in a civilized manner
You presented an alternative but no reasoning for why it was needed (or, indeed, for why the original idea was needed).

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 00:42:00 - [64]
 

Salvaging was intended to be a MINI profession. It was never intended to be a stand alone. That's straight from the devs when they were introducing it. So why is ninja salvaging so profitable? It is a stand alone profession.

Originally by: Tippia
You see, you still incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Why is this very simple concept so hard for you to grasp?
Really? So how long have you been playing? I've got over 5 years under my belt. I read the dev blogs that pretained salvaging as they came out. They purposely nerfed bounties before they added salvage and wrecks.

----------------
Reported by CCP Oveur | 2007.03.19 18:46:07
"You're taking away our ISK! We don't make that much ISK!

Understandably percieved so based on the listing in the last blog so let's clarify that also. Direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions.

You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players.

The only difference is that we're not creating ISK out of thin air from CONCORD (Infusion) but rather giving you perishable items (Sink) which other players pay you for."
-----------------

Also

---------------
Reported by CCP Oveur | 2006.09.26 12:58:59
"We also wanted to improve loot in general, so we finally went ahead and exchanged that pristine can that drops for a proper wrecked ship. That shipwreck is now salvage-able, where you will find scraps of components required to create Rigs, the new ship upgrades which currently have a heavy defensive focus."
--------------

Salvage was most certainly meant to be extra income. And until they changed it so you could salvage a wreck without first emptying it, you did get flagged for salvaging other peoples wreck fields.


Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 00:46:00 - [65]
 

The reason for the change was too many people cried that the "loot" was crap and they didn't want to collect it to get the salvage. Null sec ratters just wanted the bouties and the salvage. The side effect was opening the door for ninja. Not a problem in null, but down right annoying and immersion breaking in high sec. I can see concord not caring about theft, but protecting them? What?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:06:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/04/2011 01:15:56
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
"You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players."
…in other words, he's talking about the exploration sites where you actually use salvaging and hacking and where you can find "tools" and "technology".

You'll also note that of the mission changes he referred to, only one ever happened (the introduction of L5s). The whole statement about how "direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions" is plain false for L1s through L4s, and rather refers to the introduction of L5s, L6s, and L7 missions… and we all know how much the exploration skills are needed in L5s (which is all we got, and there, the rewards come in form of tags and LP, not mini-profession loot). So no, it was not meant as extra income for mission runners in the end. Once we get those L7s, you might have a point.

Moreover, that blog was to present possible changes for Rev2, whereas salvaging had already been introduced half a year earlier in Rev1. Looking at possible, potential (but never realised) purposes that they were thinking about maybe implementing in addition to the original purpose tells us nothing about what that original purpose was.

Compare that to this:
Originally by: CCP Prism X
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
…which refers to the actual situation as it came to be implemented.
Quote:
Salvage was most certainly meant to be extra income.
Yes, but not for mission runners; it's extra income for salvagers, which is yet another profession that you can run alongside your other activities. This is trivially shown by the fact that you can salvage without running missions and you can run missions without salvaging. The two are completely separable.

Putting it together with mission running and claiming that you need standing or fancy ships to do it would be like saying that you need Research Program Management to run missions, because that's another thing you can do in parallel.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:36:00 - [67]
 

It was meant to be extra income to make up for nerfed bounties. Ratter or mission runner. It was never intended to be the sole income of griefers.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:40:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 03/04/2011 01:49:49



Here let me underline the inportant part for you:

Reported by CCP Oveur | 2006.09.26 12:58:59
"We also wanted to improve loot in general, so we finally went ahead and exchanged that pristine can that drops for a proper wrecked ship. That shipwreck is now salvage-able, where you will find scraps of components required to create Rigs, the new ship upgrades which currently have a heavy defensive focus."


Mission running is a full on profession. So is ratting. Ask the guys in null. Salvaging is not.

Exploratin is a totally different subject. Probe-able sites were around long be before salvage or wrecks. They didn't add pure salvage sites till way after salvage.

Where did I ever say anything about standing or fancy ships? Did you even read my post? Cookie cutter responces much?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:50:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/04/2011 02:00:36
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
It was meant to be extra income to make up for nerfed bounties. Ratter or mission runner.
Could you dig out a pre-revelations dev blog that states this?
Quote:
It was never intended to be the sole income of griefers.
Good thing that it isn't, then.
Quote:
Where did I ever say anything about standing or fancy ships? Did you even read my post? Cookie cutter responces much?
Read the entire thread — in particular the post(s) that you responded to and which you wanted to argue against.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:53:00 - [70]
 

They've nerfed bouties on at least three seperate occasions. Ask anyone who's played since about '04. I started in early '06. Inflation was a huge concern for the first four years or so.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:57:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Read the entire thread — in particular the post(s) that you responded to and which you wanted to argue against.
I have. I've made two posts. One was just a general comment on the entire situation. The other was to point out that salvage was in fact meant to be loot and until later changes to mechanics was basically owned by whoever created the wreck.

So where did I ever mention fancy ships or standings? I maintain you are just throwing out pre-recorded rebuttles that don't even apply.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.03 02:12:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/04/2011 02:21:01
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
They've nerfed bouties on at least three seperate occasions. Ask anyone who's played since about '04. I started in early '06. Inflation was a huge concern for the first four years or so.
Yes? So where (and when) did they state that salvage was intended as a reward for mission runners to counteract reduced bounties?
Quote:
Mission running is a full on profession. So is ratting. Ask the guys in null. Salvaging is not.
Yeeeeah… except that (to quote CCP SoniClover) "the simple truth of what mini-professions are: they enable players, in one way or another, to create items not otherwise accessible."

…sounds very much like something you could make a career out of. In particular, they make a huge deal out of how the real money in salvaging isn't PvE, but PvP. So it doesn't sound like it was particularly or specifically meant for missions either.
Quote:
Exploratin is a totally different subject. Probe-able sites were around long be before salvage or wrecks. They didn't add pure salvage sites till way after salvage.
It's not a totally different subject since they were introduced instead of the changes you pointed to as proof that salvage was meant to be a mission reward (it wasn't, because those missions were never implemented).
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
So where did I ever mention fancy ships or standings? I maintain you are just throwing out pre-recorded rebuttles that don't even apply.
Again: read the post(s) you responded to and wanted to argue against. That post was a rebuttal to the notion that you needed standings and fancy ships to be a salvager.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 02:52:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Again: read the post(s) you responded to and wanted to argue against. That post was a rebuttal to the notion that you needed standings and fancy ships to be a salvager.
I responded to one point in one post. Reading comprehention ftw.

I like to get straight to the point. You, not so much it seems. You teach college you say? Do you muddy the water with irrelevent details when giving lectures as well?

I'll get back to you on the rest, I've real life to attend to.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.03 03:19:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
I responded to one point in one post.
Yes, the point where I said that mission-running and salvaging were separate activities, in response to a claim that salvaging required fancy ships and standings.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.03 09:21:00 - [75]
 

Nope try again:

Originally by: Tippia
You see, you still incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Why is this very simple concept so hard for you to grasp?
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Salvage was most certainly meant to be extra income...


I also included potions of 2 seperate dev blogs to support this. No mention what so ever of fancy ships or standing.

Pass the crack please. I'd like some of whatever you're smokin'.

Vancali
Minmatar
Black Moon Privateers
Posted - 2011.04.04 02:07:00 - [76]
 

I think that most people have forgotten the main aspect of this. Time. It takes time to take down a room of 40+ rats. Even with my Sentry IIs blasting away at optimal and me firing off my missiles, it could take 20-30 minutes for one pocket.

In comes the ninja who had to spend a few minutes to scan for me and warp to me. Starts to take my wrecks and usually has some ECM going or can jump out quickly. It takes time to do the mission. Real life time. This is a game, not a job. I really don't want to spend my free time having a large portion of my reward being taken by someone who hasn't earned it.

Yes, the salvage is a part of the reward. Don't try and separate the wreck from the mission. If the mission never happened, the wreck wouldn't be there. I can easily make 10+ mil on loot alone. The mission reward is what, 2 mil? Bounties make up half of the reward, unless you are running missions against navy ships, in which case, all of your reward is in the tags. Most of those defending this are more than likely the ones who are doing the pirating.

Point being, I play the game for fun. This is hardly carebearing. I'm not asking that you somehow remove pirates from 0.4 or that you ban people from salvaging from wrecks you find in complexes, belts, or other. Ninja salvaging in a mission is a little overboard. I have better ways of wasting my time then in aggravation. No, I'm not leaving. No you can't have my stuff.Rolling Eyes

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.04 03:18:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Vancali
I think that most people have forgotten the main aspect of this. Time. It takes time to take down a room of 40+ rats. Even with my Sentry IIs blasting away at optimal and me firing off my missiles, it could take 20-30 minutes for one pocket.

In comes the ninja who had to spend a few minutes to scan for me and warp to me. Starts to take my wrecks and usually has some ECM going or can jump out quickly. It takes time to do the mission. Real life time. This is a game, not a job. I really don't want to spend my free time having a large portion of my reward being taken by someone who hasn't earned it.

Yes, the salvage is a part of the reward. Don't try and separate the wreck from the mission. If the mission never happened, the wreck wouldn't be there. I can easily make 10+ mil on loot alone. The mission reward is what, 2 mil? Bounties make up half of the reward, unless you are running missions against navy ships, in which case, all of your reward is in the tags. Most of those defending this are more than likely the ones who are doing the pirating.

Point being, I play the game for fun. This is hardly carebearing. I'm not asking that you somehow remove pirates from 0.4 or that you ban people from salvaging from wrecks you find in complexes, belts, or other. Ninja salvaging in a mission is a little overboard. I have better ways of wasting my time then in aggravation. No, I'm not leaving. No you can't have my stuff.Rolling Eyes


I think you're confusing looting and salvaging. The OP was referring to pilots not being flagged (ie legally shootable) when they salvage one of your wrecks. Your complaint seems to be about taking loot such as tags etc which will flag a pilot so that you can shoot them.

Keep in mind that this is primarily a multi-player (largely) PvP game. Wherever you are you will have to interact in some way with other players. Sometimes that involves making the decision about whether or not to shoot them when you are legally allowed to in order to protect what is yours. If you're not so keen on the mulit-player aspect, there are plenty of single-player options out there for you (EV Nova, Freelancer, Darkstar one, WC: Privateer, Elite...), and they even lack the recurring fee aspect.

Ooda
Posted - 2011.04.04 12:09:00 - [78]
 

I guess the missing point is:

The missionrunner has to risk his ship to get the chance on Salvage.
The Ninjasalvager is using the missionrunner to get that salvage whithout any risk. (Unless u have special missions like EA 1/5 :D)

NPC ships should have a chance to aggro salvaging ships on every salvaging cycle. Everyone would have a risk. At the moment the only one with the risk to loose something is the missionrunner. And that's not fair.

Oh, before you try to argue " But Salvage is different to loot ": Without missionrunner blowing them up for loot, there would be no salvage. You can't seperate this things with a logical argument.


Arden Elenduil
Minmatar
The League of Extraordinary Mentlegen
Posted - 2011.04.04 13:02:00 - [79]
 

Just a small FYI,
If the ninja is even halfway decent about what he's doing, rat aggro won't do **** anyway. Unless it's web/scramming frigates that get within 10km's, a ninja just won't die.
I've had full pocket aggro in my frigate (at the time, it was about 10 battleships and a bunch of random cruisers/BC), and it has exactly 0 effect on me.

nano bobcat
Posted - 2011.04.04 13:38:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Ooda
And that's not fair.

eve was supposed to be fair?? Shocked

Imaculate Flight
Posted - 2011.04.04 18:48:00 - [81]
 

My point still stands. I pay RL money for two toons. I use one to kill NCP's, I use the other primarily for salvaging the wrecks my main toon pops.

Why is it that a salvage ninja can fly in and park next to my Noctis and salvage the ships I drag to it before I can do it...and it not be theft?

I kill it, I tractor it so I can TRY to salvage it and they get to sit there and leach off of my hard work...is this a welfare program for those who refuse to work and create there own wrecks to salvage.

All I ask is that they be given a warning that their actions may be considered as theft and that they risk retaliation by their actions. If they accept the warning, just like in cargo theft situations, then aggro starts....let us players who created the wreck decide to accept the risk of popping their cheap ship....we may loose out Tengu's..but the choice was ours anyway...tough luck.

Just give us that option to defend our wrecks; be it loot or salvage.

Vancali
Minmatar
Black Moon Privateers
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:33:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Ooda
Oh, before you try to argue " But Salvage is different to loot ": Without missionrunner blowing them up for loot, there would be no salvage. You can't seperate this things with a logical argument.



Agreed. I made that point in my thread. Regardless of how it was intended, things can change.

Originally by: nano bobcat
Originally by: Ooda
And that's not fair.

eve was supposed to be fair?? Shocked


A better word would have been balanced. Every game needs it. Fair? This game is too much like RL (without true consequences) to be fair.

Originally by: Imaculate Flight
My point still stands. I pay RL money for two toons. I use one to kill NCP's, I use the other primarily for salvaging the wrecks my main toon pops.

Why is it that a salvage ninja can fly in and park next to my Noctis and salvage the ships I drag to it before I can do it...and it not be theft?

I kill it, I tractor it so I can TRY to salvage it and they get to sit there and leach off of my hard work...is this a welfare program for those who refuse to work and create there own wrecks to salvage.

All I ask is that they be given a warning that their actions may be considered as theft and that they risk retaliation by their actions. If they accept the warning, just like in cargo theft situations, then aggro starts....let us players who created the wreck decide to accept the risk of popping their cheap ship....we may loose out Tengu's..but the choice was ours anyway...tough luck.

Just give us that option to defend our wrecks; be it loot or salvage.


This is where the disconnect is coming from between devs and certain players. The salvage wouldn't be there without the person who shot it down just like the can. The mere fact that the can (which is the property of the one who killed the ship) won't spawn until the wreck is salvaged is further proof that the salvage should belong to the one who popped the NPC. It is simple logical progression. Therefore, if someone salvages a wreck that isn't theirs, it SHOULD flag them as red to the owner.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:44:00 - [83]
 

If salvaging other peoples wrecks should be flagable, then all mission runners and ratters should be required to salvage or abandoned wrecks at all times. And if they fail to do so, they lose sec status as if they had shot a pod.

Vancali
Minmatar
Black Moon Privateers
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:33:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
If salvaging other peoples wrecks should be flagable, then all mission runners and ratters should be required to salvage or abandoned wrecks at all times. And if they fail to do so, they lose sec status as if they had shot a pod.


Well, that makes no sense. Better would be to make it public after a certain amount of time. 20-30 minutes sound like fair game? That would give them first chance, the mission would still be running. That is if it were a lv 4. Don't know why people would bother to ninja a lv 2.


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