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blankseplocked Ninja Salvaging is Theft ! Should I cancel my salvage Alt account ?
 
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Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.31 07:46:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Tippia
the ninjas unquestionably have put in far more effort to earn it.

Actually, they haven't...

So, I guess your statement is not as unquestionable as you would like to believe. Wink

Tub Chil
Posted - 2011.03.31 08:58:00 - [32]
 

I used to ninja when I was few weeks old noob :D
1) go away from motsu
2) unless you mission in a marauder you really don't get more isk/hour is you salvage
3) if you rat in marauder you have a clear advantage over ninja

I still find it strange that blowing up wreck flags you Rolling Eyes

nano bobcat
Posted - 2011.03.31 10:33:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Imaculate Flight
I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?

I pay good money for an additional account so I can salvage every ship I kill in a mish. Now I have ninja salvagers who come in a sit next to my alts Noctis and salvage everything I tractor in...that is theft...plain and simple.

I pay for two accounts, one for mish, the other for salvaging....why bother. Should I just cancel my salvage alt account???

1) having an alt does not guarantee anything in eve. Accept that.
2) you are rewarded for killing rats already, salvage is optional.
3) go doing your missions in a quiter place, if you want the salvage.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.31 11:28:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 11:30:19
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Actually, they haven't...
Actually, they have — you've just not thought about the effort required.

What does a non-ninja have to do?
1. Learn the salvaging skill.
2. Optionally learn science (for a tractor beam).
3. Optionally approach wreck (need is determined in part by step 2 above).
4. Activate salvager.

What does a ninja have to do?
1. Learn the salvaging skill.
2. Learn the probing skills.
3. Learn how to actually probe.
4. Use a combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field.
5. Warp to said field (and hope it's not gone by the time (s)he gets there).
6. Approach each wreck individually (no tractoring possible).
7. Activate salvager.

So yes, the ninja has put a fair bit more effort into it.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.31 11:55:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 11:30:19
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Actually, they haven't...
Actually, they have — you've just not thought about the effort required.

What does a non-ninja have to do?
1. Learn the salvaging skill.
2. Optionally learn science (for a tractor beam).
3. Optionally approach wreck (need is determined in part by step 2 above).
4. Activate salvager.

What does a ninja have to do?
1. Learn the salvaging skill.
2. Learn the probing skills.
3. Learn how to actually probe.
4. Use a combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field.
5. Warp to said field (and hope it's not gone by the time (s)he gets there).
6. Approach each wreck individually (no tractoring possible).
7. Activate salvager.

So yes, the ninja has put a fair bit more effort into it.

Actually, the non-ninja has to

1. Train skills for decent ships
2. Train skills for decent guns
3. Train skills for drones
4. Train social skills
5. Run l1 missions to raise standings
6. Move to l2 agent
7. Run l2 missions to raise standings
8. Move to l3 agent
9. Run l3 missions to raise standings
10. Move all ships (by now you need more than one) to l4 agent
11. Run L4 missions
12. Learn the salvaging skill.
13. Learn science for tractors
14. Kill rats without loosing the ship
15. Activate salvager

OR

You can become a ninja and replace the first 14 steps with the 6 you mentioned.

You're wasting my time again.Cool Didn't I ask you to stop that?Rolling Eyes


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.31 12:20:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 12:31:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.

All of that is part of a completely different profession — mission running — and the effort involved in those steps is repaid through standings, bounties, LP, loot, rewards and time bonuses. Notice how salvage is not on that list?

If you want to engage in the salvaging profession — if you want to earn your rights to the salvage — in parallel with your mission running or ratting, all you have to do is steps 1–4 delineated above.

If, on the other hand, you want to engage in the ninjasalvaging professions, you have to go through far more than those four steps. If anything, they've earned it more because they've put more effort (and risk) into it.



See, the problem is this: you incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Once you come to grips with this very simple concept, it all becomes clear to you.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.31 12:55:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 12:31:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.

All of that is part of a completely different profession — mission running — and the effort involved in those steps is repaid through standings, bounties, LP, loot, rewards and time bonuses. Notice how salvage is not on that list?

If you want to engage in the salvaging profession — if you want to earn your rights to the salvage — in parallel with your mission running or ratting, all you have to do is steps 1–4 delineated above.

If, on the other hand, you want to engage in the ninjasalvaging professions, you have to go through far more than those four steps. If anything, they've earned it more because they've put more effort (and risk) into it.



See, the problem is this: you incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Once you come to grips with this very simple concept, it all becomes clear to you.


You know, Tippia, I used to think you had the patience of a saint trying to explain this to these folks. Now I am starting to think you get a perverse sense of fulfillment in banging your head against a stone wall.
Very Happy

Synderq
Posted - 2011.03.31 13:04:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Synderq on 31/03/2011 13:09:41
Edited by: Synderq on 31/03/2011 13:06:40
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 12:31:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.

All of that is part of a completely different profession — mission running — and the effort involved in those steps is repaid through standings, bounties, LP, loot, rewards and time bonuses. Notice how salvage is not on that list?

If you want to engage in the salvaging profession — if you want to earn your rights to the salvage — in parallel with your mission running or ratting, all you have to do is steps 1–4 delineated above.

If, on the other hand, you want to engage in the ninjasalvaging professions, you have to go through far more than those four steps. If anything, they've earned it more because they've put more effort (and risk) into it.



See, the problem is this: you incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Once you come to grips with this very simple concept, it all becomes clear to you.
If salvaging really was designed as a profession why do you have to probe out the mission runner and not the salvage itself? If you're a ninja salvager why can you not tractor in the salvage? Your response where you stated it was because it contains the loot can for the mission runner doesn't add up because the ninja salvager could just ignore the loot can after salvaging the wreck. CCP's statements are words to the effect of "its working as designed" but you can't help feel that is a total cop-out and is more of a consequence of their design rather than through actual intent. If they were going to implement salvaging as a profession would they intentionally choose a method which, as i'm sure your well aware despite being fastidious in your response, would be considered griefing in any other game? And that it is too much hassle for them to fix.

Note: I should say I don't really have a problem with ninja salvagers and I don't think it is something that is pervasive throughout the game, I just don't really buy CCP's response.

shadowace00007
Amarr
Beyond The Gates
Posted - 2011.03.31 13:09:00 - [39]
 

Let me introduce you to the answer to your problem.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vargur
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kronos
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladin
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Golem

Ninja's. in short they do nothing wrong. The problem is your not cleaning the site out fast enough or your ship sig is to large. from what it sounds like its abit of both. none the less, if you use one of the ships designed to do missions. then you wont have this problem because most ninjas wont mess with you if your salvaging as your going.

To sum it up. use the right ship for the right job.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.31 13:36:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: shadowace00007
Let me introduce you to the answer to your problem.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vargur
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kronos
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladin
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Golem

To sum it up. use the right ship for the right job.


Sadly, there isn't a drone boat marauder. And there's a very good chance everyone will start screaming "we have noctis, stop wasting dev's time with this" if anyone tries to suggest one Wink

shadowace00007
Amarr
Beyond The Gates
Posted - 2011.03.31 13:43:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
Originally by: shadowace00007
Let me introduce you to the answer to your problem.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vargur
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kronos
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladin
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Golem

To sum it up. use the right ship for the right job.


Sadly, there isn't a drone boat marauder. And there's a very good chance everyone will start screaming "we have noctis, stop wasting dev's time with this" if anyone tries to suggest one Wink



Be a man and stop making your drones do all the work =) also drone boat mission runners have no say in this matter. I say again "your taking to long" Drones do not clear missions out quickly. you need to use a combo of guns and drones to go threw them fast.

I used to ninja salvage and when ever I scan down domi's I would scan 2 or three more people down and they would STILL be in the first room.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.31 14:04:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: shadowace00007

Be a man and stop making your drones do all the work =) also drone boat mission runners have no say in this matter. I say again "your taking to long" Drones do not clear missions out quickly. you need to use a combo of guns and drones to go threw them fast.

I used to ninja salvage and when ever I scan down domi's I would scan 2 or three more people down and they would STILL be in the first room.

Smile

I like the drone style game play (a good tank that takes it's time to get the job done). How fast drones finish a mission is not an issue for me, I'm in no rush.. If I was, I'd choose a different ship . Still, the tractor bonus, some extra cap (for salvagers and tractors) and maybe a few extra highslots (but no extra turret/launchers hardpoints) would be nice.

And, I enjoy having my "minions" do the "dirty work" for me Razz

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.03.31 14:23:00 - [43]
 

wtf is a mish

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.31 18:07:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Synderq
If salvaging really was designed as a profession why do you have to probe out the mission runner and not the salvage itself?
That's a very good question, and I agree that this is something that needs to be fixed — it's rather silly that all these abandoned wreck fields cannot be reached by any means by those who are actually intended to come and munch on them.

From what I understand, it was basically technical limitations in the scanning system: supposedly they don't want to flag a wreck as a scannable object because the server will throw a fit when umptyeleven scannable objects show up in such a tight cluster (of course, the new scanning system and on-grid scanning kind of belies this argument), and they didn't have any good way to transform a whole wreck cloud into a single scannable object to get around that.
Quote:
If you're a ninja salvager why can you not tractor in the salvage?
Because the salvage is contained in the wreck; the wreck also contains the (owned) can. It is currently not possible to separate the two, so moving one forcibly entails moving the other — and since you're not allowed to move other people's stuff (in this case the can), you can't move the wreck either.

Note that I talk about the wreck, not the salvage — the salvage doesn't exist until you've had that successful salvager cycle.
Quote:
I just don't really buy CCP's response.
I do, mainly because I'm fully aware how lazy they are about fixing these niggling little things. Razz

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.31 20:17:00 - [45]
 

Oh, I forgot…
Originally by: De'Veldrin
You know, Tippia, I used to think you had the patience of a saint trying to explain this to these folks. Now I am starting to think you get a perverse sense of fulfillment in banging your head against a stone wall.
Very Happy
…I work at a defence college. I teach political science to grunts and write reports and research papers to explain the need for emergency and disaster preparedness and management for politicians.

Call it a work injury… Razz

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.03.31 20:41:00 - [46]
 


If you could tractor any wreck, then you could essentially grief a mission runner by pulling his loot away from him.

If you could scan down wrecks, you could scan down anyone's mission in low-sec/null-sec, as well as plex escalations. This would be a huge hit to low-sec PvE'ers, and many null-sec carebears would cry out too...

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.04.01 06:08:00 - [47]
 

Same ****, different day. Everyone knows ninja salvaging is theft. CCP likes the drama though, so won't click the little box that flags for it. Why they call thier game hard core and then coddle the grieffers is beyond me. If you wanna play the "bad guy" you better learn to fight. Not so in Eve though.

Welcome to hardcore gaming.

Arden Elenduil
Minmatar
The League of Extraordinary Mentlegen
Posted - 2011.04.01 08:01:00 - [48]
 

They're not the only ones that enjoy the dramah, rage and tears (I fuel my ship with them)

That said, if you're complaining about people not playing the way you like it, Eve is not for you.
Hello Kitty is that way ->

Hayaishi
Gallente
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2011.04.01 08:07:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Arden Elenduil
They're not the only ones that enjoy the dramah, rage and tears (I fuel my ship with them)

That said, if you're complaining about people not playing the way you like it, Eve is not for you.
Hello Kitty is that way -> Here



^ fix'd

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.04.01 08:37:00 - [50]
 

You pay for an additional account who's sole purpose is to salvage? Yeah, you should cancel that account.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.04.01 09:32:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 12:31:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.

SmileNow you're just embarrassing yourself. Smile

Stop posting and go back to school. At least until you stop believing in fairy tales and unicorns and l4 mission wrecks that appear in EVE through... "mmmmagic!"... There's no such thing, OKQuestion

If you don't believe me, start the game, go in a system that has been uninhabited for the past 4 hours and spend around 6 hours in that system ALONE using only your super duper "combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field" from ships that were l4 mission NPC's before they exploded and then come back and let us know how many wrecks you found. OK?

Whatever you salvage from those wrecks I will double it, I promise. Wink

Run along now, stop bothering these nice folks here. Go on, shoo.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.01 10:13:00 - [52]
 

Mission runners still think the game revolves around them... lol

The only reason CCP decided to allow salvaging in missions was so players who specialize in salvage would have something to do. Marauders are the exception, not the rule.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.01 11:12:00 - [53]
 

Why don't you loot at it like some fun or cat/rat game?

Let it come in and start salvage your stuff, wait until he's at the good point where new spawn comes up, kill the trigger.

Profit (had a lot of sisters probes/probe launchers/T2 salvage mods, it's really awesome)

Ninjas are there to help you go faster between missions, get more LP's and eventually give you their stuff for free, why are you angry?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:56:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
Now you're just embarrassing yourself.
So tell me again: why do you need to have standing to be a salvager?
Quote:
If you don't believe me, start the game, go in a system that has been uninhabited for the past 4 hours and spend around 6 hours in that system ALONE using only your super duper "combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field"
Why would I do that? Then I wouldn't be a salvager (or, well… not a particularly smart one), now would I? If I go to salvage where there is no salvage and then I get no salvage, what does this prove (apart from that the system in question is not a good place to be as a salvager)?

You see, you still incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Why is this very simple concept so hard for you to grasp?

A part of that profession is to find salvage. You can do this in numerous ways. You can scan it out; you can lie in wait for it; you can tag along with other people. None of these ways require you to have the slightest shred of standings. If you want to create wrecks by yourself so that you can do engage in two professions at once, then yes, you might need some, but not for the salvaging part — only if you want to create those wrecks through mission-running. But again: the salvaging profession is separate from the mission-running profession and beyond not being hunted by faction police, standings are entirely irrelevant to the salvaging profession.

So yes, as a salvager, your steps 1–11 are 100% irrelevant. What you're describing there is a mission-runner, which is a completely different thing.

If you don't want to see them as different things, just because you can do both at once, then I'd like to add the following steps to my ninja salvager list:
  • You need to sink some 7 million SP into trading skills (to play the market at the same time as you ninja).
  • You need to have save up some 30-40bn in assets (to be an effective market player).
  • You need to be able to fly at least one race worth of HACs, HICs, Recons, battleships, and logistics, and all the support skills that comes with them (for when the mission-runners take revenge).
  • You need to sink some 14+ million SP into Science & Industry (to do manufacturing and research while you salvage).
  • You need to be able to fly freighters — preferably even jump freighters (to move all that salvage, all the market goods and all the production materials around).
…aaaaall of that is stuff you have to be able to do to be a ninja salvager, according to you, because all of those are things you can do at the same time as you salvage (much like how you think you need to be a mission-runner to be a non-ninja just because you can do both at once). Oh, and obviously, you need a lot of standing as well to get your POS planted…

…so as you can see, being a ninja-salvager is a lot of effort — a lot more than being a mission-running salvager. So even with kind of logic, the ninja still puts more effort into it and thus, if anything, is more worthy of the salvage. Rolling Eyes
Quote:
Run along now, stop bothering these nice folks here. Go on, shoo.
I haven't bothered any nice folks here, only you. Mainly because you cannot understand this very very very very simple thing: salvaging is not the same thing as mission-running.

Let me repeat that: salvaging is not the same thing as misison-running.

What is required for one is not required for the other. Stop mixing them up, or your ideas will fall on deaf ears because they simply don't apply to this game — a game, I might add, where salvaging is not the same thing as misison-running.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:07:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Oh, I forgot…
Originally by: De'Veldrin
You know, Tippia, I used to think you had the patience of a saint trying to explain this to these folks. Now I am starting to think you get a perverse sense of fulfillment in banging your head against a stone wall.
Very Happy
…I work at a defence college. I teach political science to grunts and write reports and research papers to explain the need for emergency and disaster preparedness and management for politicians.

Call it a work injury… Razz


LOL. You should put in for workman's compensation. You've definitely been injured on the job. Razz

Brya Domani
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:30:00 - [56]
 

I would like to apologize ahead of time if the following is noobish:

I agree with Flight in that ninja salvagers are scum (although I am one of them). I also agree with 90% of what Tippia is saying. Game mechanic or not something needs to be addressed here. Creating an alt for 'legal' salvage or ninja salvage is a players choice. It bothers me to train to earn my salvage only to have it 'stolen'.

With that being said would it make sense to make the salvagers (mods) act like tractor beams? If me and a corppie are missioning we cannot tractor the same wreck, it is basically who gets target lock first. Have the salvagers work the same, if the wreck is held by a tractor beam then only that person can salvage. It would make the ninjas have to 'work' for the salvage instead of sitting by the Noctis and waiting for it to pull everything in. Just my two cents.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.04.02 10:49:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Let me repeat that: salvaging is not the same thing as misison-running.

I have no idea why you would want to repeat that, especially since I never said it was Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Tippia
I haven't bothered any nice folks here, only you.

Oh, don't be silly...

To me you're not a bother; more like a pet I get to kick every once in a while just to see it jump Twisted Evil it's a lot of fun. Laughing (I can see why you like trolling so much)

Normally, I prefer civilized and constructive conversations but, since you've proven more than once that you're incapable of doing that, I'll settle for giving you a light kick when I have the time and then just sit back and watch you jump. Very HappyVery Happy

I especially enjoyed the part where you mentioned that you teach political science...
That's not what I meant when I said "go back to school" Wink
But it does explain why your logic is such a mess and why you are so good at twisting words; you are obviously very good at it so why don't you stick to that and leave logic to the rest of us.Cool OKQuestion

Hayaishi
Gallente
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2011.04.02 10:55:00 - [58]
 

ITT: People get off topic and decide it is more fun to compare apples and oranges than actually talk about the topic at hand.

Zelda Wei
Caldari
New Horizon Trade Exchange
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:47:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Imaculate Flight
I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?

I pay good money for an additional account so I can salvage every ship I kill in a mish. Now I have ninja salvagers who come in a sit next to my alts Noctis and salvage everything I tractor in...that is theft...plain and simple.

I pay for two accounts, one for mish, the other for salvaging....why bother. Should I just cancel my salvage alt account???


Your argument is hindered by your illiteracy.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please return once you have finished school.





Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.02 13:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
I have no idea why you would want to repeat that, especially since I never said it was Rolling Eyes
Yes you did. By adding points 1–11 on your list of what salvagers need to do, that's exactly what you did.


And you agree with me, since you have no argument to the contrary and have to resort to ad hominems instead.


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