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blankseplocked Ninja Salvaging is Theft ! Should I cancel my salvage Alt account ?
 
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Imaculate Flight
Posted - 2011.03.30 03:02:00 - [1]
 

I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?

I pay good money for an additional account so I can salvage every ship I kill in a mish. Now I have ninja salvagers who come in a sit next to my alts Noctis and salvage everything I tractor in...that is theft...plain and simple.

I pay for two accounts, one for mish, the other for salvaging....why bother. Should I just cancel my salvage alt account???

Cyriel Longinus
Caldari
XERCORE
Posted - 2011.03.30 03:12:00 - [2]
 

Features and Ideas Discussion

Features and Ideas Rules Thread


I'm not opposed about you posting your experience ... but all I read is pure emotion in your post ... that does not clearly convey an idea or a reason for some new feature that allows us to shoot those ninja salvagers.


ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.03.30 06:00:00 - [3]
 

Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

Zan Shiro
Posted - 2011.03.30 06:44:00 - [4]
 

make alt a rr pro...make main less tanky, more ganky and the alt keeps up the reps/transfers to compensate. Throw in leadership/warfare skills for some free bonuses. Go link happy and ships that can fit them if motivated.

or....

leave mission hub cesspools. have gone months and seen like 1 vulture. Left the hubs, downgraded agents a few quality points. Worth it to me....try and see if for you all I can say.

Cyriel Longinus
Caldari
XERCORE
Posted - 2011.03.30 07:19:00 - [5]
 

ShahFluffer's reply = Flawless Victory

Arden Elenduil
Minmatar
The League of Extraordinary Mentlegen
Posted - 2011.03.30 07:26:00 - [6]
 

u mad brah

Mireidor
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.03.30 08:16:00 - [7]
 

Sure sounds like he mad.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 10:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Imaculate Flight
I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?
Of course he doesn't get flagged he's not stealing anything.

The ammunition you use to kill those ships is compensated for through the bounties, the LP, the standings increases, the mission rewards, the time bonuses and the loot. The salvage is not part of the package if you want it, you have to earn it.

And yes, having a second account simply for salvaging is rather silly. Salvage isn't a particularly good means of income. Just turn it into a second mission runner instead if you want to make money.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.30 12:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Zan Shiro
make alt a rr pro...make main less tanky, more ganky and the alt keeps up the reps/transfers to compensate. Throw in leadership/warfare skills for some free bonuses. Go link happy and ships that can fit them if motivated.

or....

leave mission hub cesspools. have gone months and seen like 1 vulture. Left the hubs, downgraded agents a few quality points. Worth it to me....try and see if for you all I can say.


Combine these ideas for ultimate win.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 16:56:00 - [10]
 

here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.

everything else should be considered stealing.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 17:15:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:16:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou
here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.
Better idea: earn your salvage like everyone else and stop complaining about how the game doesn't give you stuff for free.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 17:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:16:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou
here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.
Better idea: earn your salvage like everyone else and stop complaining about how the game doesn't give you stuff for free.


Where exactly did you see complains in my post???

And how come you get to decide whether or not I've earned my salvage?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 17:35:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:35:43
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Where exactly did you see complains in my post???
Here: "only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone".
Quote:
And how come you get to decide whether or not I've earned my salvage?
I don't. CCP does. You have to earn your salvage, just like everyone else. You do this by training the skill, by equipping the module, by finding and scooting up to the wreck, and by activating your module.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 17:50:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:35:43
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Where exactly did you see complains in my post???
Here: "only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone".


That's a suggestion (or an opinion, if you wish), not a complaint. If you can't make the difference maybe you shouldn't post (that's another opinion, in case you're wondering)

So, go back to school (advice) and please stop wasting my time (request). Wink

NO complains.

Get it? Got it? Good!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:06:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 18:08:28
Originally by: Johnny Lou
That's a suggestion
No. Here's a word for you to learn: implicit.

Or are you saying that you don't think there's any need for your suggestion? That only makes it worse.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:23:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 18:08:28
Originally by: Johnny Lou
That's a suggestion
No. Here's a word for you to learn: implicit.

Here's one for you: assumption

I thought I asked you to stop wasting my time...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:32:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
Here's one for you: assumption
So why do you want to change something that's not a problem?

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:36:00 - [18]
 

Not to break up this fascinating discussion, but...

The simple facts are:

1. Salvage works the way it does because CCP wants it that way.
2. As shown above, when asked multiple devs have confirmed that salvage is working as intended.

Avoiding ninja salvaging is easy, if you're willing to put in the effort to do so. There is no need to have ninja salvaging flag the salvager. and, frankly, I thin kyou would be very, VERY unhappy with the results if CCP changed it. I can almost guarantee a flood of threads on the forums the next day begging them to roll the change (from all the mission runners who have lost multi billion ISK ships taking potshots at ninja salvagers).

Sometimes the cure really is worse than the disease.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Here's one for you: assumption
So why do you want to change something that's not a problem?

Just because ccp makes a decision doesn't mean it's always the smart one or that it never gets out of date.

tbh, I'd rather see ccp implement more scram frigs that warp in and scram any ship that comes after the initial ship.

your turn: Why do you want to keep it? (please keep in mind that the current implementation was done before the "abandon wrecks" option was introduced)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:58:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
Just because ccp makes a decision doesn't mean it's always the smart one or that it never gets out of date.
Agreed. Wrecks should be completely free for all (to loot, tractor, salvage, blow up, whathaveyou) no ownership at all. Mission runners would no longer have anything to complain about and they make more than enough ISK as it is. The decision CCP made to include the loot as part of the rewards is outdated.

It would also remove the need for an "abandon wreck" option.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:08:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Just because ccp makes a decision doesn't mean it's always the smart one or that it never gets out of date.
Agreed. Wrecks should be completely free for all (to loot, tractor, salvage, blow up, whathaveyou) no ownership at all. Mission runners would no longer have anything to complain about and they make more than enough ISK as it is. The decision CCP made to include the loot as part of the rewards is outdated.

It would also remove the need for an "abandon wreck" option.


ONLY if a group of ships warps in and scrams and attacks anyone and everyone who comes in after the first ship.

So, Everyone who comes in the room gets scrammed and aggro.

If you bring help in the mission they'd better be ready to fight, if you bring a salvage ship you'd better be ready to defend it, if you warp to someone running a mission to salvage you'd better be ready to stand your ground and fight in order to get to that wreck.

Salvaging without aggro should only be possible when all npc's in the room are dead.

No one should be able to salvage unchallenged (and I don't mean a race to see who is the faster salvager)

Hepzibah Mariana
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:09:00 - [22]
 

People like to complain about this a lot. People need to start reading the stickies and doing a tiny amount of research.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:14:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Hepzibah Mariana
People like to complain about this a lot. People need to start reading the stickies and doing a tiny amount of research.

Especially this part:

"1) This is a breeding ground for ideas. If someone has an idea, listen to it. If you don't like it, think about why. Constructive feedback is good. Posting "That's an awful idea," is not constructive."

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:20:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
Salvaging without aggro should only be possible when all npc's in the room are dead.
Why?

Oh, and why do you want to change something that's not a problem?
Quote:
No one should be able to salvage unchallenged
So make wrecks free for all. Solves everything.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Salvaging without aggro should only be possible when all npc's in the room are dead.
Why?

Oh, and why do you want to change something that's not a problem?
Quote:
No one should be able to salvage unchallenged
So make wrecks free for all. Solves everything.

LaughingLaughingLaughing For a few minutes I actually thought you might be able to say something smart for a change.. Obviously that's not going to happen.

oh well.. Smile

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:36:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Johnny Lou
LaughingLaughingLaughing For a few minutes I actually thought you might be able to say something smart for a change.. Obviously that's not going to happen.
So you cannot think of a single reason why it should change (otherwise, you would obviously have presented it, rather than going for the ad hominem).

Well, as long as we're clear on that.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:48:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Tippia
So you cannot think of a single reason why it should change (otherwise, you would obviously have presented it, rather than going for the ad hominem).

Well, as long as we're clear on that.

Actually, I can.

I just don't like the way you ask Cool and especially the way you twist my words. Wink

Miss Krunk
Posted - 2011.03.31 02:02:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: ShahFluffers
Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)



Everyone knows CCP's policy on wrecks, but most people think it is flat out ridiculous. If wrecks are the wrecks are not owned, then why can't everyone tractor them instead of just the guy who killed it. The reason, the wreck belongs to the guy that made it.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.03.31 02:13:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Corina''s Bodyguard on 31/03/2011 02:13:39
The only reason a person cannot tractor a wreck that is "owned" by someone else is that the container in the wreck (not the possible salvage that may come from it) is "owned" by the mission runner (or ratter or whatever). That system was put in place to prevent jet can miners from being grieved by people tractoring their cans, and to the server, a wreck is just a different type of can.

Edit: would like it if CCP fixed that though. I enter a complex with a bunch of wrecks, and I have to slowboat it to all of them (because most players don't bother to abandon).

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.31 04:17:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Miss Krunk
Everyone knows CCP's policy on wrecks, but most people think it is flat out ridiculous.
If they do, it's because they don't understand the design (and/or because they're greedy and want stuff for free). Their ignorance is not a reason to change it.

The design is very simple, and it shouldn't be that hard for them to understand: salvaging is its own means of income. It is not a part of mission running. That's why there's roughly zero overlap in requirements for the two activities. Running missions does not give you rights to the salvage because what you're doing is running missions not salvaging. To gain the rights to the salvage, you have to salvage.
Quote:
If wrecks are the wrecks are not owned, then why can't everyone tractor them instead of just the guy who killed it.
Because they contain loot cans that belong to whomever killed the ship. This could easily be fixed by, say, removing loot as part of the rewards for killing rats, thus making all wrecks completely free-for-all. This will solve all problems, but somehow, it seems the complainers don't favour this very simple solution.

Alternatively, rat-killers can decide what kind of reward they want to give up in exchange for gaining exclusive salvaging rights. If they want those rights without giving anything up, they need to present a really good case why their income needs to be boosted.

This never happens they just want more for absolutely no useful or adequately explained reason. They certainly never explain why they should have that right rather than the ninja salvagers, when the ninjas unquestionably have put in far more effort to earn it.


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