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Yakov Pavlov
Posted - 2011.04.01 21:39:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Yakov Pavlov on 01/04/2011 22:03:17
Edited by: Yakov Pavlov on 01/04/2011 22:01:39
Quote:
...the same spirit just didn't seem to be there. I don't know if that's an FC thing or what, but it still seemed weird. That having been said, like every feature, it was about what I made of it.


I'm sorry .. I'm unimpressed with this response. Essentially he's said that despite years of clamoring for dev attention on this feature, he poked his head in to see what the hubbub was about. There is no clarity that the Devs understand the content of the complaints or even recognize that there's a problem. Hey he got a kill so why are you moaning?!

Patronizing to say the least. The burden is on the devs to show some good faith effort at substantively responding and communicating. Instead we get the boilerplate. We'll look into things.

The only thing the Devs agreed on is that there is a lack of communication and they're hammering out what they're gonna say. Dollars to donuts, that's a PR strategy polish the turd that is FW.

Mission Accompluished .. Bone thrown ... pathetic

Scanner717
Posted - 2011.04.02 01:09:00 - [152]
 

If they honestly think they can just 'hold out' until World of Darkness is complete they're nuts. Even if they do get that thing out the door in a couple of years CCP will have such a bad name with EVE no one will humor them on any shortcomings with WoD. we will simply assume whatever is wrong during the beta will persist and people will play whatever else will be around at that time. FW, Lowsec, Null, and Highsec are suffering fairly equally from lack of content and the high account numbers is only a symptom of the massive botting problem not of actual player retention. Old accounts don't die they just get ebay'd

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.02 01:30:00 - [153]
 

What the FW guys need to do is get one of the devs bestest friends in the game to care about FW. Maybe go through the Scrapheap challenge guys. CCP does whatever SHC tells them to do.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2011.04.02 01:42:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: mkmin
CCP does whatever SHC tells them to do.


hahahahaha, haha, ahh....you're too funny

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.02 01:47:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: mkmin
CCP does whatever SHC tells them to do.


hahahahaha, haha, ahh....you're too funny

Yeah. It's really funny when a dev does screws over large parts of the player base and says "we did it because SHC told us to." Happened before. The upcoming ****-patch sounds like that's where it came from. If anyone wants their special interest project implemented (even if it's a big pile of horse****) send it through SHC, where CCP will proceed to start sucking. Or maybe the FW guys can use the power of the SHC suck-fest for something positive and get FW updated.

Jireel
CANUCK ENGINERING
Fade 2 Black
Posted - 2011.04.02 02:03:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: mkmin
CCP does whatever SHC tells them to do.


hahahahaha, haha, ahh....you're too funny

Yeah. It's really funny when a dev does screws over large parts of the player base and says "we did it because SHC told us to." Happened before. The upcoming ****-patch sounds like that's where it came from. If anyone wants their special interest project implemented (even if it's a big pile of horse****) send it through SHC, where CCP will proceed to start sucking. Or maybe the FW guys can use the power of the SHC suck-fest for something positive and get FW updated.

Dude you said in another post you'd quit. Would you do it right now and stop whining everywhere please ?

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2011.04.02 02:03:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: mkmin
..."we did it because SHC told us to." Happened before.


proof or...well, i won't tell you to stfu, but i will definitely laugh at you some more

Quote:

The upcoming ****-patch sounds like that's where it came from. If anyone wants their special interest project implemented (even if it's a big pile of horse****) send it through SHC


you are like a neverending fountain of hilarity, please don't ever stop posting

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2011.04.02 03:30:00 - [158]
 

What about FW and DUST 514? The first DUST trailer was pretty much tied directly to the FW Gallente/Caldari storyline.

Surely they must be integrated?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.02 05:02:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
Hola again.

I had a brief chat with CCP Zulu and brought this thread to his attention as well as the /facepalm re: Fanfest panel.

Having been an active member of the Minnie militia, a lot of things in this thread rang true with me as well. I got into it as an intro to PvP. After my workload spiked, I dropped out, but recently I ducked back into Ama/Auga/Kourm+ to get some pew pew on and the dynamic of fleets etc has changed...the same spirit just didn't seem to be there. I don't know if that's an FC thing or what, but it still seemed weird. That having been said, like every feature, it was about what I made of it. I ended up hunting down a destroyer filled with Amarr scum and got my first solo kill :) Of course, that's not to downplay or dismiss the very real concerns here, just to put in my perspective.

That aside, Zulu agreed that there needs to be more dialogue from CCP about Factional Warfare--where we've been, where we are and where we are headed. Part of the dev team is going to sit down and hammer that out in some sort of meaningful format and we'll get that to you as soon as possible.




Shocked Uhhhh..... wow.

Lord Meriak
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.04.02 07:14:00 - [160]
 

CCP do seem to have sat up and taken note on this thread.

Cheers to ydpd for coming back and moaning to corp and thanx to har for starting this thread.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:01:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: mkmin
What the FW guys need to do is get one of the devs bestest friends in the game to care about FW. Maybe go through the Scrapheap challenge guys. CCP does whatever SHC tells them to do.


God, if only.

ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:09:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: ITTigerClawIK on 02/04/2011 11:08:54
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Maybe a live dev blog where players can ask questions and stuff could be scheduled to make up for this? Make a good portion of it about faction warfare? This mistake can easily be redeemed.


Brilliant idea i would like to second this

Ioci
Gallente
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:18:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Ioci on 02/04/2011 11:18:02
FW: PvE in low sec with an Empire based war dec system in an NBSI game.

I don't understand why it didnt work.

monkfish1234
Caldari
The Knights of Spamalot
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:23:00 - [164]
 

personally i thought fw started out really well, loads of people got involved and there was some decent pvp that didnt revolve around sov.

pretty shortly after the novelty wore off, and the rewards did not promote fighting, this inevitably leads to the pvpers leaving and the carebears moving in.

all that is really needed is a shift in where the rewards of fw come from. In my mind we have enough mission that i wouldn't miss fw missions. LP should be coming from combat / plexs in a similar way as incursions now work (the greatest rewards from pvp)

possibly using some sort of system wide bonus' which would give some incentive to occupying areas of space.

in short, if you can find a way to reward pvp in a balanced way fw can work, right now it doesnt.

Tyburn Stannis
Caldari
Xenon Salvage Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:27:00 - [165]
 

Fair play CCP Manifest for putting your head over the pa****t several times on this unfortunate incident, the fanfest faux pas has been apologised for in about as plain a manner as you could imagine.

But how to "fix" FW... and how to run any discussion or dialogue, that's a different matter :P

Mak Gruber
Lone Star Privateers
Drop the Hammer
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:30:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Ioci
Edited by: Ioci on 02/04/2011 11:18:02
FW: PvE in low sec with an Empire based war dec system in an NBSI game.

I don't understand why it didnt work.


No .......it was cool until it turned into a money machine. and folks realized the profits.

Ioci
Gallente
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2011.04.02 11:45:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Mak Gruber
Originally by: Ioci
Edited by: Ioci on 02/04/2011 11:18:02
FW: PvE in low sec with an Empire based war dec system in an NBSI game.

I don't understand why it didnt work.


No .......it was cool until it turned into a money machine. and folks realized the profits.


I doubt it. Granted it might be ISK now. You might say those people won. The original goal was to control the systems so you could make profit. if people had kept up the "original purpose" of PvP it would have been another killmail farming tool that saw ISK go in to the gutter. Even in its prime, all FW served to do was consolidate low sec player bases. Nobody from high sec ventured to low sec and stayed there as a result of it. Null people did give it a try but returned to null when it got boring.

TBH I don't know what they had in it for long term goal. To essentially "hold Sov" in lesser space?

Hamish Nuwen
Gallente
Escuadron Federal de Asalto
Posted - 2011.04.02 15:09:00 - [168]
 

My 2 cents:

- Fix the opposite-occupancy plex spawns in any moment of the day, not only the DT, for Timelord's sake.

- FW missions are a mistake. They are not bound to any of the mechanics of the FW, only had been introduced as a "fix" to give an economical reward to FW participants. They should be removed, and replaced by a "FW mechanics"-based reward.

For example: give LPs to all the participants in the occupancy of a enemy solar system (change VPs to LPs at any ratio) only if and when the system is conquered. If the system is not conquered, there is not reward. If the system is absolutely decontested by defensive forces, then the VP counts are reset to zero. (Yeah, this has a lack: rewards -incentives- for the defenders, but we can think in something similar for them).

And now a bit of crazy stuff: a second player-driven source of FW incomings may be a FW-conquered-solar-systems-based gambling system, where any player (not only FW participants) could risk his/her money betting for one of the warring sides in a contested system. In that scenario a player can be economically encouraged (or discouraged Very Happy) by his own bets... or by third parties that has interests in any sense. Cool

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:22:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 02/04/2011 16:22:39
I'm all for rewarding FW PVP and I'm sure that CCP can come up with some way to do that. However I strongly dislike the way that plexes work so I'm not such a fan of simply rewarding their current incarnation. I'm also not a huge fan of FW missions, but I think they're actually working out fairly well. Specifically, I think they fit in well for the kind of missions that can (should?) be done in low sec.

One thing that's been tumbling around in the back of my mind for a really long time is the fact that the empires are really built by their industries. I'd feel a lot better killing empire NPCs in plexes if I knew that someone had built them and put them there - something like an engineer class in certain popular FPSs.

-Liang

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.04.02 21:57:00 - [170]
 

FW mIssions are ok, It's nice that unlike Level 4's in high-sec they force you to travel around, and it's good that they encourage people to PVP, though, most people use bombers which means you can pretty much avoid PVP if you so wish. There has been talk about LP for kills which is kinda nice idea, but obviously it's open to being exploited. But that kind of system would just drive people off to do their own things I think it might be better to offer rewards and a reason for people to actually get together and PVP for an objective. I do like the idea of making isk part of a group mechanic, a little like incursions, where you have to bring a smaller fleet to take on the mission rats, but that you can also get jumped by the Faction fleets. Also maybe have a system where the longer you hold a system for then there is a small % reduction on the cost of equipment in the LP store or something. And personally, I'd like to feel more like I am actually fighting for my Faction, that they, as an empire, are invested in the objectives of FW. I want to feel immersed in that part of the lore, as much as I want to be encouraged and rewarded for fighting and making gains for that faction.

UJust Lost TheGAME
Posted - 2011.04.02 22:17:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Cosmic Raider
Your mistake was thinking that CCP cares.




Edited for content.

Liorah
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:07:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: mkmin
Would you have it based on killmails?

*cough* No :)
I'm riding on the assumption that the people who wrote the game, and that the ones who decided what information to put in the killmails out of all of the information possible, are able to take the available information and reasonably determine victory potential, and assign points.

Originally by: mkmin
This idea would actually tie in well to a bounty hunting suggestion that gets thrown around every now and then... have the reward based on the value of the ship and get split between the participants when the ship is killed (where with bounties it would subtract from the total bounty pool placed on them and no insurance payout.) The problem is that it would give a hard LP -> isk value ceiling (if LP value rises high enough, people will start cashing in ships for LP.) On the other hand if LP is based on the difference in ships (dessies killing BSes) you have a weird reward system where people will bring along a noob ship alt, take a potshot and warp away.

Different topic of discussion, but unfortunately I don't think a player-run or player-enforced bounty system will ever be one that isn't ripe for abuse.

But for the specific abuse situation of a Noobship taking a potshot at a BS kill, award LP not just based on the different ships, but the damage the ships do as well (for combat ships; logis and ewar would be classified differently).

There is a wealth of information available for battles that CCP has access to, and a playerbase that has more imagination and creativity than all of CCP combined. Even if ultimately LP isn't rewarded for PVP combat, as long as CCP stays open and there is genuine two-way conversation about improvements being made instead of unilaterally declaring what will happen (usually short-sightedly), the results will be positive.

It will boil down to the question, Does CCP want to truly make FW (and all of EVE) something truly amazing and the best that it could possibly be, or do they just want to perform damage control and offer lip service while doing the minimum amount of work possible?

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:18:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 03/04/2011 01:21:56
Originally by: CCP Manifest
but recently I ducked back into Ama/Auga/Kourm+ to get some pew pew on and the dynamic of fleets etc has changed...the same spirit just didn't seem to be there. I don't know if that's an FC thing or what,



It's not an FC thing.

It's a CCP thing.

When CCP showed over and over again that you were in the process of trying your hardest to kill FW the players followed this lead.

It was at a critical point about a year ago after a year plus of neglect and the screams for action were ignored.

You allowed your best feature to rot on the vine while chasing dust.


edit:

Just to reinterate, there is nothing much wrong with FW how it was designed.
The game designers thought of most stuff and it really fits together well, in a way I'm sure no one in CCP understands correctly.

The mechanics are brilliant, when they work you can have many hours of dynamic evolving PvP with plexing being the thing that mixes it up.

The problem is not in the mechanics design. It's in the code.

The code for this mechanic has never worked correctly, it is a collection of bugs, not a need for redesign or changes.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.03 01:57:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith

The code for this mechanic has never worked correctly, it is a collection of bugs, not a need for redesign or changes.



Disagree. There needs to be a reason to care about occupancy beyond roleplay.

Lost InCogneto
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.04.03 02:25:00 - [175]
 

Agreed, I can't see why for every constellation (or even a system)captured the militias would reep some reward like increased PI / bounties / pos fuel requirements - what ever just some thing. (like the mechanics in 0.0)

All have presented CCP with great ideas so lets see you step up to the mark CCP and inject more life back into FW.

Here are a few of my own:

While I dont agree with the plex spawn mechanics and the ability to speed tank them as a short term fix I would like to see all npc have to be destroyed to capture the plex. I do like the different size plexes as it forces pvp in all scales.

My second biggest concern is the mismatch in the factions to run fw missions (a stealth bomber should not be able to solo a lvl 4 fw mission and complete the objective in min by just having to pop haulers or stargate.)or solo speed tank fw plexes.
Running with the theme once a system changes hands let the fw agent and station change hands as well, that will force the fights for systems and agents.

example if houla had 2 x lvl 4 Q 20 agents you take the system you get the agents and the rewards of now having the better agents.

CCP I really hope you take interest this time and bring FW back to some thing that every one raves about once again and not all talk and no show.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.04.03 02:44:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 03/04/2011 02:49:19
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith

The code for this mechanic has never worked correctly, it is a collection of bugs, not a need for redesign or changes.



Disagree. There needs to be a reason to care about occupancy beyond roleplay.


Maybe.... but it has to come **AFTER** the mechanic itself is fixed.

See this gameplay had plenty of people willing to play it no incentive is needed, it just needs to work as intended.

* First make the existing mechanic work for more then 3h a day.
* Then you'll get a chance to see how it works when it's working.
* Then you can decide if you need further incentives.

Really, when it works, and if you've seen it work, no incentive is required beyond the awesome gameplay.

edit:

Originally by: Lost InCogneto
I would like to see all npc have to be destroyed to capture the plex. I do like the different size plexes as it forces pvp in all scales.


A good idea, after removing EWar from the NPCs making it "not frig soloable" again by adding the need to kill the NPCs would rebalance it.

Really whenever we had the aussie/euro gangs running it after downtime we always had dead NPCs when it came to capture time.
Although the code bugs out often enough as it is without more conditions attached to it. (maybe after fixing plex despawn bug it would get easier to code)

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.03 02:46:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Lost InCogneto
Agreed, I can't see why for every constellation (or even a system)captured the militias would reep some reward like increased PI / bounties / pos fuel requirements - what ever just some thing. (like the mechanics in 0.0)

All have presented CCP with great ideas so lets see you step up to the mark CCP and inject more life back into FW.

Here are a few of my own:

While I dont agree with the plex spawn mechanics and the ability to speed tank them as a short term fix I would like to see all npc have to be destroyed to capture the plex. I do like the different size plexes as it forces pvp in all scales.

My second biggest concern is the mismatch in the factions to run fw missions (a stealth bomber should not be able to solo a lvl 4 fw mission and complete the objective in min by just having to pop haulers or stargate.)or solo speed tank fw plexes.
Running with the theme once a system changes hands let the fw agent and station change hands as well, that will force the fights for systems and agents.

example if houla had 2 x lvl 4 Q 20 agents you take the system you get the agents and the rewards of now having the better agents.

CCP I really hope you take interest this time and bring FW back to some thing that every one raves about once again and not all talk and no show.


Any repeating set of missions, people are going to be able to figure out how to powergame them. There are people who solo level 5s. Making missions harder or so they couldn't be done with a single sb is just going to make people run them with an alt in a speedtank. Basically, so long as missions of any kind exist, they will 1) suck and 2) be able to be powergamed.

I love your idea about capturable FW agents, though. That is gold.

My idea for FW is this: use the incursions code, and players get LP for fighting off enemy incursions, or supporting friendly incursions. So the Minmatar launch an offensive into the Jayai constellation. The longer it progresses, the more onlined magic future modules reduce potential capsuleer influence with the Navy's plans (just like how current incursions work). Sites are spawned, like "Minmatar Fortress" and "Minmatar Convoy," but also Amarr sites, like "Amarr redoubt." FW players get LP and enemy faction items from defeating enemy sites. Side bonus to this system: more cynojams in FW space means less hotdrops. Booo on hotdrops.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.03 09:29:00 - [178]
 

My Grand Vision, posted all those moons ago.

The overall vision hasn't changed although one could add features from Incursion and include PI efficiency in rewards - maybe even let PI output increase the amount of work the enemy has to do to flip system back.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.03 11:59:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 05/04/2011 09:38:22
edit: who cares anyway

Lost InCogneto
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.04.03 12:00:00 - [180]
 

My Grand Vision - great write up.

Would like to see those points added to this thread to keep it alive and get some really great ideas brought up with CCP.

CCP Manifest care to help us on our cause .............


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