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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.04.01 02:51:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Har Harrison on 01/04/2011 02:52:04
Team BFF definately can fix a number of the bugs one would hope
e.g.
1) Faction Standing Penalty for RR on a <-5/gcc militia member
2) Plex spawning mechanics
3) Rebalance of NPCs - ideally making them all somewhat harder so that you can't solo missions etc..

and I would definately say seeing them fixed is a good start.

However there are certain deeper design mechanics that would improve FW immensely. Some are harder then others
1) Corp/Militia Missions - bit like running an Incursion - needs a fleet to work together
2) Real consequences to winning/losing sov
3) PvP being worth more then a gf (good fight) in local (more LP/isk etc...)
4) Logistical issues to handle - this could force PvP by attacking/defending the transports moving war supplies, slaves, etc...
5) Meaning significance in the rank structure - and consequences for those that hurt the militia (ability to force out griefer corps or member of the Faction NPC corp??? etc...???)

Originally by: Jireel
PS: I've been looking at faction warfare for some time now, and one of my chars should be free in a approx. a month. Is there any Amarr FW corp alive ? I'm purely looking at the PVP aspect and not willing to do any mission.


We would be interested in recruiting any decent and dedicated pilots - look up Amarrian Retribution in game and send in a mail or join the pub channel

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.01 02:58:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Jireel
Edited by: Jireel on 01/04/2011 01:29:57
Dudes, a public representative of a company is making a public apology about something. Instead of throwing rocks at him, you should realize it may be the ray of hope you all wanted for years, especially if CCP made a habit of ignoring FW requests for the last years.

About the dev time needed for FW, I suggest that team BFF is actually working on correcting old bugs. They could add those FW bugs to their list, to at least correct the issues if not revamp the features.

PS: I've been looking at faction warfare for some time now, and one of my chars should be free in a approx. a month. Is there any Amarr FW corp alive ? I'm purely looking at the PVP aspect and not willing to do any mission.

They showed up to the roundtables in previous years and jack all got done. Not bothering to show up and then going "whoops" is kind of counter indicative of something ever getting done.

BFF is busy breaking 0.0. They're going to be busy fixing it. Or not.

Webvan
Posted - 2011.04.01 03:43:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Webvan on 01/04/2011 03:55:24
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Appology Accepted, now just follow up as soon as you resonably can.
Wow how big of you. Now does this mean that you'll be reasonably leaving your self declared solo corp that looks like consists of miners and highsec mission runners etc and join a hard-core faction corp? fun-fun-fun! ugh

---
ah what to do with the $40 I saved for a 3mo EVE sub, maybe buy more SL land hehe at least there we have working pvp faction systems that we developed/scripted ourselves so don't get the developer bs run-around (yes it's a big secret to most and very niche). Well, here is hoping for you actual faction war participants here to get some real luv some day. Really EVE would be the greatest if CCP got serious about getting a good working "faction war" system going (semi-again?). I really hate disconnect between devs and players, does no one any good, have seen it before in a bad way (eg swg-cu/nge which once was golden pre- for FW). Why does this happen to so many games? Signing-off. EVE account page: Cancelled Will be suspended 4/6/2011 ugh

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.04.01 04:05:00 - [124]
 

**** CCP and Faction War.

It's been literally years since it was introduced and literally nothing has been done about the staggering unbalance there is between the different races plex not to forget the crushing rr and standing issues.

Face it guys ccp is going for the money with incarna and has put casual accessible pew pew on the back burner. Now before you call me a troll and carebear I have been playing the game on every level since 2005 and have watched the game slowly stagnate into caps r us.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.01 04:13:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
**** CCP and Faction War.

It's been literally years since it was introduced and literally nothing has been done about the staggering unbalance there is between the different races plex not to forget the crushing rr and standing issues.

Face it guys ccp is going for the money with incarna and has put casual accessible pew pew on the back burner. Now before you call me a troll and carebear I have been playing the game on every level since 2005 and have watched the game slowly stagnate into caps r us.

Caps R Us doesn't hurt CCP's $, so they aren't going to change anything about it. Fanfest vids showed a confused "this is a problem?" expression on the devs when confronted with it, and when asked what's going to be done about it, the response was "nothing." Seriously, CCP's decisions over the past 1-2 years all makes sense when looked at from the point of view of a greedy money grab.

Rytha Main
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.01 04:22:00 - [126]
 


A bump for a worthy thread.

Hoping to see some developer commentary.

In my opinion, FW and Sov mechanics are in desparate need of overhaul. Not sure a game like "Supercaps online" has much of a long term retention rate.

FW could be epic. But really... it's not.

Diana Araquez
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.01 06:09:00 - [127]
 

Please keep in mind CCP that most players doing FW warfare now do not in fact want to see the whole system scrapped and replaced with something new, they just want some of the more glaring issues fixed.

I think insisting too much that "FW is broken" might give CCP the wrong ideea that they should remove the complex system of occupancy or make FW more like Dominions sov taking or other changes that would make it even worse than today.

Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.04.01 06:45:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Diana Araquez
Please keep in mind CCP that most players doing FW warfare now do not in fact want to see the whole system scrapped and replaced with something new, they just want some of the more glaring issues fixed.

I think insisting too much that "FW is broken" might give CCP the wrong ideea that they should remove the complex system of occupancy or make FW more like Dominions sov taking or other changes that would make it even worse than today.



A valid point - though it would be better to have to do something more then just shoot a bunker...
Fix some of the bugs and then take stock of where things at is probably a reasonable option before too much gets redeveloped

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.01 07:22:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: mkmin
Yeah, but how would they advertise it?...

Beside the point. FW is currently the best place outside of null to pew and get easy ISK, the amount of failscade/disillusioned null corps that come through our doors is staggering.
Not only do they get wallets fattened up but they get to practice/indulge in small scale warfare and pick up competent pilots before heading back out.
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
...

Well said Admiral. The RP potential is immense, almost all currently active RP elements in Eve have dabbled in or are keeping tabs/assisting FW in one way or another.
Originally by: Har Harrison
Team BFF definately can fix a number of the bugs one would hope...

Not sure there is really that much they can do actually. Most of FW is a mash-up of code from elsewhere (exploration, missions etc.) so they would have to track effects of changes across all the related code ..
Note that practically all the heinous bugs (cloaking capture, auto-run timers etc) we have suffered from over the years were a direct result of a change somewhere else that *wrecking* on the mash-up ..

Asad Shirkuh
Posted - 2011.04.01 11:37:00 - [130]
 

Firstly, props to the CCP representative who actually stepped up and took the hit here.

It does, however, not change the fact that the problems with FW are not being handled at all. Most of the players here probably do recognize the issues with allocating resources you do not have - because all CCP staff is working on the new stuff. But you must also be aware of what kind of signal CCP is sending out, by doing what plainly looks like abandoning a game concept (FW) and all the players who have put time and effort to make it work. Reputation is a word that should be familiar even to those members of CCP staff who only care about revenue and profit.

Many people - veterans, that have been in 0.0, and came back, name FW the best pvp in the game. Somebody also named the good point - that it is the ONLY available pvp to younger players. For myself, I can say that finding good pvp for a young character was not easy, until I was introduced to a FW corp. I bought 10 rifters and had the time of my (eve)life. After a while, though, one does become aware of the problems that have been listed in this thread. To those issues, I would like to add the following:

- FW has little chance to grow because at any time a fleet manages to grow to a decent size, it also presents a nice enough "gank" target for 0.0 alliances that are bored out of their skin. They then drop a fleet of 10 Supercarriers on the FW fleet, and bomb them back to stone age. I will not go on about how unfortunate this is as a game mechanic, but at least in the name of fluff ask: - Would not that sort of action **ss off the Faction Navy you are working for? - The Faction Navy Support mentioned earlier in the thread could work to sort that.

- Doing FW has a very strong negative impact on you long-term faction standings. I personally do not understand why CCP would be interested to bar people on the long term (because you have to farm for standings for weeks to get them to acceptable levels to get into other parts of Empire, when you get out of FW) from trying new (read "other") from game content at all? All new MMOs develpers advertize that they are trying to avoid the grind aspect in MMOs. Haven't CCP recongnized this point yet?

I would also like to add support to the point about FW mechanics working as incentive only for Stealth Bomber PvE. The faction missions are the only thing that gives you a reward worth mentioning, while the "true FW" - the plex pvp, which is such great fun, gives you practically no reward. This leads to the wrong sort of players being attracted to FW, and, tbh, makes a FW PvPer feel like an idiot for "defending his faction, etc" for no reward...

Bengal Bob
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:06:00 - [131]
 

Ultimately eve is a sandbox, and FW is a sandbox within a larger sandbox. FW has many problems, but so does the rest of Eve.

I get annoyed with some of the issues, but actually if I look at what I want, FW delivers. PVP on demand, missions to recover my losses and general fun. Talking to others, especially the RP guys, they are looking for additional excitement, something to force them out to engage even against the odds - a tangible reward even if it is only feeling proud of what they have achieved.

Part of the problem is us. Long gone are the days when we would gleefully x up in general militia channel and happily leeroy off in our 100 man frig blobs to capture plexes and get into haphazard fights with the WT. Those days are gone. Nowadays, when a new player joins, or even a 0.0 corp filled with fleetsheep, it is like throwing a baby into a pedo pool. Everyone queues up to get in on the new free kills and after a while they are hiding in station doing nothing, or in a sb doing missions. Then we complain there is no one to kill.

Plexes fail to really address this. I would put money on myself against a new FW player that warps his cruiser in on my frigate in a medium plex, never mind all the T2 and faction stuff that is now mandatory to be competitive.

The only real solution I can see for plexes is this:

Even spread across the day for when they spawn.
Identical NPC spawn for all factions.
One size of plex - large. To close it, all NPC must be dead
Acceleration gates work on your FW ranking, so the new players get some actual room to learn without getting spanked immediately.

As for rewards for owning a system?

Borrow from existing code and penalise the opposing faction with speed/armor or some other effect - nothing significant, but a few percentage points.

Lastly, it is a sandbox and CCP is not going to wipe our bums for us. If many people feel that things are stale, then let the corps involved meet and discuss ways to influence the arena of operations. Many people are passionate about FW, so why not set up an internal FW council to attempt to influence behaviour and tactics for the major long term corps.

Thanks for reading excessively lengthy post.

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:36:00 - [132]
 

I wasn't going to post on this, but after the last post I must.

First, ty CCP for acknowledging this mistake and showing these forum whiners that FW is getting attention like everything else. Continues to show that CCP is an upstanding company and I am happy to give my $$ to you every month.


Originally by: Bengal Bob


Plexes fail to really address this. I would put money on myself against a new FW player that warps his cruiser in on my frigate in a medium plex, never mind all the T2 and faction stuff that is now mandatory to be competitive.

The only real solution I can see for plexes is this:

Even spread across the day for when they spawn.
Identical NPC spawn for all factions.
One size of plex - large. To close it, all NPC must be dead
Acceleration gates work on your FW ranking, so the new players get some actual room to learn without getting spanked immediately.


OMG no no no no no. The plexes are the best thing about this freaking system. Large plexes only? say goodbye to all the frigate fights we get. You can't close a large plex with a frigate (you can sometimes but its hard has hell, especially in certain factions.

The beacon is also good because it draws people to an area to fight that is off of the gate entrance. By making it so that you have to kill everything you are forcing people to plex in large ships or in large groups, which is a bad idea for a) noobs, b)those of us that think that frigate are fun.

Identical npc's meh, maybe.

The one thing you don't bring up is the missions. Those need to be rethought and we all know it. I hate seeing people run solo lvl 4's in a bomber, its just stupid. And if we gave all npc's in fw missions missiles this would be fixed. How often do you see amarr or gallente running lvl 4's in bombers (i for one have never). Make people come out in more expensive boats to get that great lp, its not like any of us are hurting for cash.

I look forward to hearing CCP idea for holding a belated meeting on this

Liorah
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:27:00 - [133]
 

Is FW so broken that it needs to be scrapped and started fresh? Or can smaller, iterative changes be made to bring it inline with the original vision?

Would a good "pennance" for ignoring FW for all of these years, with a fresh topping of blue balls from Fanfest, be that discussion and decisions of improvements to FW be made in the open, allowing players to give input the whole way through (and have it actually considered)?

If the devs could explain what they want to change, and why, and why solutions were chosen or rejected, the finished product would become something the sales and marketing people could really spin: "In a collaborative effort never before heard of in any other MMO, Developers and Players work together to bring the biggest update to Faction Warfare since its release." (and then go on to list the changes and how it impacts the whole game and is generally the best thing since sliced bread)

If advertised that devs and players worked together, it would likely make most of the people who left because of FW take another look and possibly return. It would definitely raise eyebrows among potential new players. Who knows, it could become so successful that the model could be used for other parts of the game.


Based on the discussion in this thread already, here's my contribution:

- You should take a one-time standings hit with enemies when you join a militia and whenever you kill faction ships in regular PVE missions, but not when you make a kill on behalf of your militia.

- LP should be awarded primarily for PvP, with only a minimum available for completing missions, much less than LP from PVE missions. Use a points system similar to how killboards assign points (there's probably room to improve in every killboard implementation out there). Win with overwhelming force, receive few LP; beat an overwhelming force, receive massive LP. Bonus points for popping pods within a brief period after popping their ship. BS vs BS fleets should award more than Frig vs Frig fleets, though there is constant danger from Nullsec. Lots of specifics to try to prevent abuse.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:27:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 01/04/2011 14:30:06
Originally by: mkmin
There is no $ in faction warfare. It's worth investing 15 minutes of community department's time to appease the current FW players with hollow promises to keep their subs going, but not worth the dev time to actually improve FW. Nobody joins EVE for FW.


This couldn't be further from the truth. Everyday Eve loses players who can no longer find any decent small gang pvp. Small gang pvp is a real strength of eve. Yet ccp doesn't play to that strength Ė they completely ignore it! FW occupancy plexing was the one attempt to actually boost small gang pvp. Unfortunately they just couldn't resist putting npcs in there and making even fw plexing a pve activity.

Instead CCP keeps playing to what is widley considered a weakness - shooting npcs. When are they going to realize that developing more ways to shoot npcs is not really going to boost subscriptions?

As far as advertising they could hit huge paydirt with fw improvements. They could think of many slogans/catch phrases for the expansion and that sort of thing. Itís the biggest war of any game in the history of computer games! How can you fail to market it? Thatís not a problem.

If people arenít aware of eve they will hear about this game with this huge war and become interested. If people are aware of this game they may have hope that ccp finally did *something* that brings about quality small scale pvp.

If you know anything about eve then when incursions was launched what did you think? I thought ďah yes, yet another way to shoot red xs in eve. If it really pays well I may ďgrindĒ them. I wonder how long it will take to get incarna out so they can start doing decent expansions.Ē I donít mean to denigrate any ccp employees that worked on incursions. But your work was misdirected from the start.

And FW is not really for new pvpers. You arenít really trusted until you get some solo kills, and that can be hard for new pvpers. I think newer pvpers would be better off going into null sec blobs if you have allot of time to dedicate to eve, or rvb if you donít. You will get a bit more handholding.

FW should be for people who like pvp but canít dedicate their real life to eve. Does anyone really think there is no market there?

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:33:00 - [135]
 

It takes real, brilliant, vision to make eve into what most the people in here want it to be.

Real, brilliant, vision built this game. Then it left, and business opportunity stepped in.

Now I'm not saying there aren't people at CCP that aren't trying to make a great product. I don't want to bitter vet too much here... but at the end of the day the game we are playing is marketing driven.

No one has the courage and wisdom at the upper levels to say "look, here are the areas where our product is not living up to the hype, we are better than this, let's make this stuff work the way everyone intended"

Resources are not being provisioned in a way that would groom and develop the game into something better. It's not about better, it's about new and shiny and distracting people and once they got you there they move on to the next new shiny whatever.

Really, my sig says it all.

CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:01:00 - [136]
 

Hola again.

I had a brief chat with CCP Zulu and brought this thread to his attention as well as the /facepalm re: Fanfest panel.

Having been an active member of the Minnie militia, a lot of things in this thread rang true with me as well. I got into it as an intro to PvP. After my workload spiked, I dropped out, but recently I ducked back into Ama/Auga/Kourm+ to get some pew pew on and the dynamic of fleets etc has changed...the same spirit just didn't seem to be there. I don't know if that's an FC thing or what, but it still seemed weird. That having been said, like every feature, it was about what I made of it. I ended up hunting down a destroyer filled with Amarr scum and got my first solo kill :) Of course, that's not to downplay or dismiss the very real concerns here, just to put in my perspective.

That aside, Zulu agreed that there needs to be more dialogue from CCP about Factional Warfare--where we've been, where we are and where we are headed. Part of the dev team is going to sit down and hammer that out in some sort of meaningful format and we'll get that to you as soon as possible.


Maximus Mordel
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:06:00 - [137]
 

I am going to borrow a few ideas from this thread, other threads, a bad memory, current game mechanics and brainstorms to throw a few ideas out there:
  • Have an ISK and LP reward tied to your killing of enemy player militia members. Possibly have a reduced amount for killing the secondary enemy (i.e. Minmatar killing a Caldari). The previous post about something similar to KB points is a great idea if refined.

  • This payment would be given out weekly/monthly/downtime...whatever. It would be multiplied by a factor determined by the Occupancy of your militia.

  • Plexs would remain as is except for a few changes. The more of your militia around the beacon, the faster it completes. All plexs respawn immediately in the constellation they originated in. This would create more dynamic occupancy and increase the amount of plexs which creates more opportunity for small, medium and large PvP away from stations and gates.

  • Missions would be changed to send you to specific plexs that act similar to scannable plexs, but instead of the timer, you have to complete the mission (the missions would need a bit of balance, perhaps tied to the amount of militia members in the plex). If your militia's occupancy is low, then most missions would be aggressive, and vice versa for high occupancy. LP and ISK rewards for these missions would also be tied to Occupancy level.

  • Show the vulnerability status of a system with a bar or percentage to show the players their successes and/or failures.


Again, just a few quick brainstorms and borrowed ideas to mull over. Hack Ďem up!

Zyracon
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:14:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
Hola again.

I had a brief chat with CCP Zulu and brought this thread to his attention as well as the /facepalm re: Fanfest panel.

Having been an active member of the Minnie militia, a lot of things in this thread rang true with me as well. I got into it as an intro to PvP. After my workload spiked, I dropped out, but recently I ducked back into Ama/Auga/Kourm+ to get some pew pew on and the dynamic of fleets etc has changed...the same spirit just didn't seem to be there. I don't know if that's an FC thing or what, but it still seemed weird. That having been said, like every feature, it was about what I made of it. I ended up hunting down a destroyer filled with Amarr scum and got my first solo kill :) Of course, that's not to downplay or dismiss the very real concerns here, just to put in my perspective.

That aside, Zulu agreed that there needs to be more dialogue from CCP about Factional Warfare--where we've been, where we are and where we are headed. Part of the dev team is going to sit down and hammer that out in some sort of meaningful format and we'll get that to you as soon as possible.




Rest assured, there are a lot of EVE players who would love nothing more than to come back to Faction warfare.

Godspeed, you Minmatar-loving dog.

Selene Asteria
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:40:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Meeogi
Edited by: Meeogi on 31/03/2011 21:10:32
WEll...if your listening.Smile

I think the lp and reward system is all jacked up.

I'd like to see rankings and lp actually used for FW... For instance, killing an opposing faction pod pilot should reward tons of lp..and podding an opposing capsuleer should be 5 times more then that..After all we are pod pilots and gods among the standard navies'..and eliminating a gods pod should be paid as such.

LP points should be redeemable in super cool things....Id like to see the players rank and lp points used to drop friendly npc frigate gangs ...and the higher the rank the bigger a fleet you can drop..lp points would definatly go up with this. One should also have to have a cyno fitted to drop.

Each FW side should have a main system...with each factions titan located in said system....would also go with the the cynoing of a frigate...cruiser...or BS NPC squad....The Titan could be located in a pos shielded "headquarters" and killing the titan can happen once militia is over run.

Rankings should also come from PVP ...and not from mere plex/missions....one should NEVER be able to become a "general" in a week or two.

On decorations and rewards, other then FW rank...The names of poddings should also be listed....just cause its cool.
You implemented medals ..yet you really dont get them in FW...make that happen. "Meeogi courageously killed Nubs on 3-31-11" something like that.

anyways just jotted down some idea's

<edit> When in fleet if you could set the Fleet Commander...and when people drop fleet have a small rating system that goes into ..or takes away rank would also be cool. Just a simple eve mail..

Amarr would like to thank you for your help in defeating the Minmatar.
Your fleet commander was <insert name> please select 1-10 for <said names> leadership and cunning and you shall be rewarded x sum LP's for your help!.

This would increase the FC participation...and ranks would actually portray leadership...could also be used in applying for other corps. "was a general in FW...what have you ever done.Cool





Good Ideas
I really liked the rate your FC idea... I agree that LP's points should be used in FW,Maybe there could be 2 types of lp..one from the militia corp and 1 from combat?. The highest rank should be a very rare sight.

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2011.04.01 17:35:00 - [140]
 

Killing opposing militia members for LP is so exploitative...I can't believe you guys are seriously talking about it. One of the main problems of a FW system that sits within a larger game design system is the fact it can be so exploitative. If Eve had been made from the ground up in FW as the key PVP design point, I am sure it would rock. But it wasn't, and FW will most likely suck until some magic can address that point.

Ramingo
Caldari
Verplante Juenger Hamburgs
Legion of Damnation
Posted - 2011.04.01 17:41:00 - [141]
 

List of things that could be done to improve on the FW experience


Posting for nostalgia's sake.

I will voluntarily join Ice Fire Warrior's's public channel AND read it for 1 week straight from top to bottom if CCP improves FW. And by that I don't mean nerfing missons, but working on PLEXES, sovereignty control, etc...

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.04.01 18:28:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Karash Amerius
Killing opposing militia members for LP is so exploitative...I can't believe you guys are seriously talking about it. One of the main problems of a FW system that sits within a larger game design system is the fact it can be so exploitative. If Eve had been made from the ground up in FW as the key PVP design point, I am sure it would rock. But it wasn't, and FW will most likely suck until some magic can address that point.


This is very true.

CCP not only has to overcome the fact that resources aren't focused on fixing old content (see also: polished content doesn't sell as good as new content) but they can't just wave a magic wand that makes things cool

changes to the FW system are welcome, but you can't just say "well I think LP should be based off killing people"...

-HOW DO YOU SUGGEST LP should be based off killing people?

then follow your idea through to conclusion. Ask yourself this question:

-"Can my idea easily be exploited?"

if the answer is yes, you are back to the drawing board.


Meeogi
Amarr
Lone Star Privateers
Posted - 2011.04.01 18:40:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Meeogi on 01/04/2011 18:40:51
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Karash Amerius
Killing opposing militia members for LP is so exploitative...I can't believe you guys are seriously talking about it. One of the main problems of a FW system that sits within a larger game design system is the fact it can be so exploitative. If Eve had been made from the ground up in FW as the key PVP design point, I am sure it would rock. But it wasn't, and FW will most likely suck until some magic can address that point.



This is very true.

CCP not only has to overcome the fact that resources aren't focused on fixing old content (see also: polished content doesn't sell as good as new content) but they can't just wave a magic wand that makes things cool

changes to the FW system are welcome, but you can't just say "well I think LP should be based off killing people"...

-HOW DO YOU SUGGEST LP should be based off killing people?

then follow your idea through to conclusion. Ask yourself this question:

-"Can my idea easily be exploited?"

if the answer is yes, you are back to the drawing board.





Exploiters could also be easily VERY easily caught. rookie ships/shuttles would not count.

Liorah
Posted - 2011.04.01 19:05:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Karash Amerius
Killing opposing militia members for LP is so exploitative

Sure. It CAN be. That's one of the reason I suggested a scoring system inspired by the points on killboards. If you go in with a bunch of shuttles, you are worth almost no points because you have no offensive capabilities. It would be the same situation if the opposition drops 100 moms on you. Guaranteed wins should have a very low payout, if any at all. Upset victories should reward big.

I guess if a couple of people want to let you kill their Titans with a Thrasher, the fail would be so strong that you deserve the massive LP :) (But, I guess since the Titan's weapons wouldn't be effective vs Destroyers, the LP payout shouldn't be as big as it might otherwise seem)

Two fleets of noobships facing off against each other would be hilarious and probably a bunch of fun (til the Discogeddon comes to the party), but the LP payout should make it definitely NOT worth the time it takes. Fights like that should be for fun, not for profit.

The trick will be to balance the rewards to make it still an overall net loss to lose a ship to discourage fraud. Remember, FW is supposed to be about a lot of small-scale PvP battles, and a lot of fun. I guess RP too, though I'm not an RP person. It should never be the most efficient way to grind ISK.


mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.01 19:24:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Liorah
Originally by: Karash Amerius
Killing opposing militia members for LP is so exploitative

Sure. It CAN be. That's one of the reason I suggested a scoring system inspired by the points on killboards. If you go in with a bunch of shuttles, you are worth almost no points because you have no offensive capabilities. It would be the same situation if the opposition drops 100 moms on you. Guaranteed wins should have a very low payout, if any at all. Upset victories should reward big.

I guess if a couple of people want to let you kill their Titans with a Thrasher, the fail would be so strong that you deserve the massive LP :) (But, I guess since the Titan's weapons wouldn't be effective vs Destroyers, the LP payout shouldn't be as big as it might otherwise seem)

Two fleets of noobships facing off against each other would be hilarious and probably a bunch of fun (til the Discogeddon comes to the party), but the LP payout should make it definitely NOT worth the time it takes. Fights like that should be for fun, not for profit.

The trick will be to balance the rewards to make it still an overall net loss to lose a ship to discourage fraud. Remember, FW is supposed to be about a lot of small-scale PvP battles, and a lot of fun. I guess RP too, though I'm not an RP person. It should never be the most efficient way to grind ISK.



Would you have it based on killmails? How do you determine if it was a fair fight with killmails, since they only really show one side, or would it even matter?

This idea would actually tie in well to a bounty hunting suggestion that gets thrown around every now and then... have the reward based on the value of the ship and get split between the participants when the ship is killed (where with bounties it would subtract from the total bounty pool placed on them and no insurance payout.) The problem is that it would give a hard LP -> isk value ceiling (if LP value rises high enough, people will start cashing in ships for LP.) On the other hand if LP is based on the difference in ships (dessies killing BSes) you have a weird reward system where people will bring along a noob ship alt, take a potshot and warp away.

Meeogi
Amarr
Lone Star Privateers
Posted - 2011.04.01 19:48:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Meeogi on 01/04/2011 19:52:19
Well i still like the idea..of having even a different form of LP...like Militia combat credits . You can use those for combat stuff...like getting an npc frig gang to help or something. But cannot be sold on market. Yes they should absolutely scale up... Leave the LP store for mission *****s.

But can we at least agree that rank should come from combat? I really like the idea of a little eve mail asking how your FC did... a highly voted up FC will show it in his rank.


Set it up ....so you can only gain LP points from a certain person 1ce every 3-7 days... that will stop alt account exploitation...or make them morons for trying. But just saying...people will exploit NOOO ...There is always a solution.

Dunn Idaho
Caldari
Core Impulse
Posted - 2011.04.01 19:49:00 - [147]
 

Make it so only systems that are adjacent to one another can be fought over, this will atleast create an ilusion of frontline beeing fought over. Instead of all the backsystems no one flys in beeing plexed over.

And there needs to be a way to win FW.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.01 19:52:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Dunn Idaho
And there needs to be a way to win FW.

Well, first there needs to be a reason to fight for more than the 1 faction, but I'm pretty sure the disparity between payouts of different factions is old and ignored news to CCP.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.04.01 21:01:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
Hola again.

I had a brief chat with CCP Zulu and brought this thread to his attention as well as the /facepalm re: Fanfest panel.

Having been an active member of the Minnie militia, a lot of things in this thread rang true with me as well. I got into it as an intro to PvP. After my workload spiked, I dropped out, but recently I ducked back into Ama/Auga/Kourm+ to get some pew pew on and the dynamic of fleets etc has changed...the same spirit just didn't seem to be there. I don't know if that's an FC thing or what, but it still seemed weird. That having been said, like every feature, it was about what I made of it. I ended up hunting down a destroyer filled with Amarr scum and got my first solo kill :) Of course, that's not to downplay or dismiss the very real concerns here, just to put in my perspective.

That aside, Zulu agreed that there needs to be more dialogue from CCP about Factional Warfare--where we've been, where we are and where we are headed. Part of the dev team is going to sit down and hammer that out in some sort of meaningful format and we'll get that to you as soon as possible.




Thank you for pushing this and making some internal discussions on FW happen! I love you man!

Agallis Zinthros
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.01 21:36:00 - [150]
 

What's FW?


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