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Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.04.05 20:03:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 28/03/2011 13:03:04
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 11:31:07


Depends what you mean by "viable".

A maxed-out-everything mining op supported by Orca or deployed Rorqual can still yield almost 60 mil ISK per Hulk pilot (if you can find plenty of Ark, that is, if you're only going to go for Crok, then under 40 mil), then take out the cut of the booster, hauler, refinery and whatnot other taxes, tarrifs or interruptions, and you're still about on par with ratting, running anoms or whatnot other activities are there... you know, ballpark wise anyway.
Plus, mining scales pretty well across multiple accounts, while the rest, not so much.

P.S. But yeah, you have a point, there's something out of whack there. However, I think the solution is to tweak what ores refine into rather than change ship build requirements.



mining ops in empire aren't really that profitable either. They do excellent gatherings for new and old people alike tho, so it's good for socialization.


Socialization. Nothing's creepier than guys who mine together, have a beer, and call that socialization. Get a life.

Sixtina KL
The Shoop Group
Posted - 2011.04.05 20:08:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Deen Wispa
Socialization. Nothing's creepier than guys who mine together, have a beer, and call that socialization. Get a life.


>implying EVE players have a life

lolin'

James Moroci
Posted - 2011.04.05 21:13:00 - [93]
 

how i do it.

i rat as i make 60 mill an hour NOT to mention the random officer,fraction and hauler drops. i make 50/60 mill in oure isk pr hour plus all the loot. i then refine the loot and sell what can be sold. i then buy mins much better as i can get mins AND new shiney ships very fast.. i do have mining 5 and all skills regarding mining at 5 but i would never go into a mining vesal as its simply not profitabl at all. and when it comes to it isk is what drives most of us.. u need isk to do what u really like.. mining and ratting is just a way to get it. and mining isent an option really! some said they make 150 mill mining 4 or 5 houres a day wow... in that period of time i make about 400 mill. if you include the loot. ccp defently should look into something like removing all mining from emperiel space. AND then make all belts scanable. not to mention make new ores or capital mining vesals. wich can suck a rock in it and process it.. and then make it so only one such vesal can be in a system a time. so it would be very dangorous o use etc... very slow... and it owuld take so much skills that botters wouldent consider using it.. like titan 5 in ore ship! drone region should change aswell. just make em drop less ore. and make em more lethal..

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.04.05 21:41:00 - [94]
 

Dunno... don't really get why everything has to be calculated down to "isk per hour" before desiding whether something is waste of time or not.

Sometimes mining can be relaxing, sometimes missioning is something I want to do... some exploration now and then... building this and that... trading... chatting... having fun time...

...but perhaps fun factor shouldn't have any role in this game... ?


Jaylaw Nadawa
Posted - 2011.04.05 22:18:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Dunno... don't really get why everything has to be calculated down to "isk per hour" before desiding whether something is waste of time or not.



Neither do I. The one who has the most isk wins Eve?

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.05 22:35:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Deen Wispa
Socialization. Nothing's creepier than guys who mine together, have a beer, and call that socialization. Get a life.


Do you have better suggestions that don't involve international air travel and/or abandoning the spouse/children?

Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.04.05 23:00:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Deen Wispa on 05/04/2011 23:03:22

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Socialization. Nothing's creepier than guys who mine together, have a beer, and call that socialization. Get a life.


Do you have better suggestions that don't involve international air travel and/or abandoning the spouse/children?



Yeah. It's called going out and socializing with real people :)))

Btw- speaking as a recruiter and CEO, I stopped recruiting miners long ago because many of them were useless during wardecs. Not all. But many. Their skills weren't transferrable to combat, they wouldn't listen to intelligence reports and still mined afk in their hulks during war which resulted in bad efficiency on the KBs, and would generally just whine and leave during war.

Their value to the corp wallet was slim as well relative to mission runners. Having recruited many people and observed varying levels of intelligence, I honestly truly believe that the intelligence of a gamer who mined as a profession is lower than those of other professions such as PvPers, and PvErs. That's not an absolute by any means but merely a generalization based on my experience within the game.

I honestly could start an entire post about why CEOs of hisec empire corps shouldn't bother recruiting miners . Perhaps some other day Cool

EDIT: You asked for a way to not abandon children/spouse so I guess going out is not an option Embarassed

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.04.05 23:53:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Deen Wispa
Their skills weren't transferrable to combat, they wouldn't listen to intelligence reports and still mined afk in their hulks during war which resulted in bad efficiency on the KBs, and would generally just whine and leave during war.

As an industrialist myself, killmail efficiency carries no weight at all with me. I can also understand why combat virgins might not want to participate either.

As a rookie combat pilot, the thing that made the most difference for me was a FC that didn't berate me for not knowing really basic things when I asked for clarification. Instead, he took the required time (all of 3 seconds) to explain them. Questions like: "What do you mean by `Top station'?", and "How do I tell if they are pirates?" when I was asked to be a scout are memorable moments for me.

Efficiency wasn't important. Participation and fun was. When fleets were called, the FC didn't care if you were in an Ibis.

A ship replacement program was nice too, even though in one case it was funded entirely out-of-pocket by one generous member.

The first page of an old military drill manual I memorized read: "Leadership is the art of getting somebody to do something you want done, because they want to do it."

cyndrogen
Posted - 2011.04.06 00:50:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: cyndrogen on 06/04/2011 00:51:17
mining is a miserable experience if you are actually engaged in the game, however if you're doing other things then mining is semi passive income.

Corp mining is about as exciting as ZZZzzzzzz.....

If you want to drink beer and hang out go out and enjoy life with your friends and leave mining to the bots.

Mining is mind numbing!



Darknilas
Chosen Frozen Industries
Posted - 2011.04.06 01:07:00 - [100]
 

Mining combined with manufacturing has been very profitable for me.
As an older player(age wise)I mine during those early morning hours that I can't sleep. To me there is nothing more relaxing to me than to fire up the computers for a couple of hours roid therapy. I'm a multiple boxer with multiple accounts so I can keep busy when mining and true it will get boring if done too long.
I am not afk miner(except when nature calls)and do not condone botting for any reason.
My vote is to figure a way to make mining more interactive and more difficult to automate.

Onkadis
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:17:00 - [101]
 

TL/DR:
Prices are stable if you take the long-view. Game needs mineral sinks without creating isk sinks that affect PvPers. Miners/mission runners need more consumables to create more mineral demand. Up ammo min costs and greatly increase t1 crystal burnout rates. More low-sec manufacturing.

---

I pulled out some of my old notes of mineral prices. They're basically the same right now as they were in 2005/2006 back when there were far, far fewer hulks (and there weren't as many bots around, and few of them were in hulks making them far less influential), capitals were being built (but limited by players with the skills to fly them), and the drone regions hadn't been added yet. Shuttles were still NPC items and offered a cap on Trit prices and the old insurance rules were in place.

So, where's this dramatic price shift?

And do the common assumptions above about why the prices have dipped really hold given these prices are the same as in 2005/2006?

Anyways, I don't regard myself as a miner but I did mine all the minerals for all of my capital ships (and help out other brosefs do it). Mostly I made isk ratting in 0.0 when I needed to.

When I look at the mineral price state it seems obvious to me that it's a function of the relative lack of space combat compared to other times in Eve history. I would bet there's a lot less space violence going on, or at least a lower amount of minerals being blown up in the form of spaceboat hulls than is entering the system -- ie the ratio of minerals leaving the system is lower despite capacity to add minerals into the system.

Minerals follow roughly the same faucet-sink system as isk does. Minerals enter the economy "free" and are an unlimited resource -- restricted only by time and willingness to extract them. The only way they leave the system is if ships or ammo get blown up.

So, do you want to increase the amount of mineral faucets? As a first cut at it, it's pretty simple. Make ammo require more minerals. Have tech 1 mining and laser crystals burn out more frequently. Making Amarr buy ammo adds a good drain on the system.

If that gets implemented and doesn't cause enough changes in the system and you want to be more radical, have ships and modules wear out over time. Create and sell mineral-intensive refurbishing kits. I would NOT want to see ships and modules become more expensive. That's too penal on the pvp guys.

PvP folks are less affected by "wear and tear" because our stuff assplodes too frequently.

What the game needs is ongoing costs that affect people who otherwise are not affected by consumables -- I've had the same ratting ships for like three years and the same mission runners for longer.

Manufacturing failure is NOT a sink I would advocate for. In fact, I'd man the ramparts with the carebears in our hellokitty kestrals to keep that from happening.


You can also turn down the faucet a bit by making sure that loot drops are higher meta value and some faction stuff dropping (less people reprocessing mods into minerals). BPC drops are also a good idea (lewt that requires min consumption to realize). With lewt logging you can open up the spiggot a bit on good stuff from missions and other NPC events.


Incidentally, I would also want to see fewer factories in empire. More POS-based building would be good for the game (imo). More POS sinks are useful to keep ice mining moving for those who like AFK mining (work + ice mining is nice). POS-based building gets those empire builders running gates (yarr!). More ships going boom, more minerals need to be mined.

I dont think that will cause prices to get toooo CRAZY because I suspect there's plenty of surplus mining capability in the game and there are a lot of blokes like me who trained up mining skills on characters to provide passive income while pvping on other accounts. Prices will go up temporarily because careberries will not want to dip their toes into low-sec but...****'em. amirite?


Beki 250
Posted - 2011.04.06 06:06:00 - [102]
 

I just realized that I'd rather mine than read this.

See you at the market.

Celestis VanBuuren
Posted - 2011.04.06 11:58:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Aderata Nonkin
This is something everyone thinks and it has to be said: Mining is for the mindless idiots who are either too unintelligent or lazy to sink into the more complex aspects of the game.
All miners avoid the PVP aspects of EVE as much as possible, being the disgusting carebears that they are.


Funny that. I own multiple capitals including a super and a pvp quite heavily with my main. You're one way view on miners is pathetic.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.06 12:39:00 - [104]
 

It becomes a waste of time because of numerous bots and overall low per hour income. Bots contribute most of all factors to low value of minerals.

Mining would be very fun if roids were hard to find, require scanning, WH-space and yielded a lot of ISK.

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.04.06 12:55:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: QU0RRA

BTW, not everyone AFK mines. In particular multiboxers whom have those accounts to manage. I have never seen any multiboxers run cargoexpanding hulks AFK. The majority run in Hulk gangs with Orca support, hulks which are fitted for either max yeild (or max tank during Hulkageddon). Any that do, well we have Helicity to sort those out. Twisted Evil These multiboxers, love them or loathe them bring in extra revenue to CCP WITHIN the TOS and EULA, well those multis who do it all manually and not via synergy etc.
Laughing



what? pretty much everyone who runs an alt in the background while really playing does EXACTLY this. solo with a cargo expanded hulk. more cargo means less attention.


Tarasina
Posted - 2011.04.06 13:35:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Arnakoz
Originally by: QU0RRA

BTW, not everyone AFK mines. In particular multiboxers whom have those accounts to manage. I have never seen any multiboxers run cargoexpanding hulks AFK. The majority run in Hulk gangs with Orca support, hulks which are fitted for either max yeild (or max tank during Hulkageddon). Any that do, well we have Helicity to sort those out. Twisted Evil These multiboxers, love them or loathe them bring in extra revenue to CCP WITHIN the TOS and EULA, well those multis who do it all manually and not via synergy etc.
Laughing



what? pretty much everyone who runs an alt in the background while really playing does EXACTLY this. solo with a cargo expanded hulk. more cargo means less attention.




I never got to a hulk with my alt, got bored of mining before training it. But I did run my Retriever with cargo rigs and expanders in lows...while main did combat.

But if everyone did the more lucrative things in Eve, what would the ships be built with? Obviously quite many must be mining.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.04.06 13:40:00 - [107]
 

One has to wonder why CCP still includes a mining laser on the rookie ships. Is it some sort of joke?

Eternus8lux8lucis
Minmatar
Whack-A-Mole
Posted - 2011.04.06 13:40:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Eternus8lux8lucis on 06/04/2011 13:41:39
Ive mined in eve since I started playing and not with this toon over 7 years ago. Ive mined BS in moas way back when to sell on market long before the advent of hulks or barges of any type.

Mining has gone down the drain quite a bit imo. Not just from the bots. When I finished mining I was running 4 accounts. 3 hulks an an orca for support all in high sec. Most people, seeing as I dont have to work, always think Im a bot as I can play the same amount of time that other ppl work plus gaming time. I hated it. Ive mined in every area in Eve minus WHs simply because I havent gotten there yet.

I enjoyed it. I got to work out, read, watch movies or just chat to people and surf the web. I was almost always semi afk doing it. But I was always there to change everything. I hated that a bot could mine the same 8 or sometimes, lolEmbarassedCrying or Very sad 12 or more hours a day Id mine and not have to do a single thing. I got a lot of other **** done mind you in the meantime and you get to study a lot.

Make stuff BREAK!! Bots will never use drones. Ever. There is NO keystroke for deploying drones. You can set it up where you can clone the mouse clicks fair enough.
Make stuff break only after most people that do play the game for fun will start to wear down. IE 1-2 hours game time. Your mining head bust. Deploy your repair drone to fix it. Fix time takes 30, 45 or maybe 60 secs. Your repair drone doesnt exist. But comes standard on all mining vessels. It doesnt come in the drone overview but a seperate one that you have to open through the UI of your ship. And randomly spawns in an area of your screen so you cannot clone mouse clicks in any way. You gotta BE there or eventually youll have no more lasers or whatever left.

You technically can do this for all weapon platforms based on time used. PvP engagements wouldnt last long enough for things to break. Anything done normally in the game wont be on long enough in a row to engage it and if engaged so what if your there. You can deploy your drone and fix it.


Mining like PI is also a great idea I already put forth here.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1483354

And if the cycles are long enough even a guy like me that can mine for hours and days on end if I want to without getting bored. Can still play the game but bots cant.

Scannable fields only please. I dont mind at all.Very Happy

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.04.06 14:14:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Eternus8lux8lucis
Edited by: Eternus8lux8lucis on 06/04/2011 13:41:39
Ive mined in eve since I started playing and not with this toon over 7 years ago. Ive mined BS in moas way back when to sell on market long before the advent of hulks or barges of any type.

Mining has gone down the drain quite a bit imo. Not just from the bots. When I finished mining I was running 4 accounts. 3 hulks an an orca for support all in high sec. Most people, seeing as I dont have to work, always think Im a bot as I can play the same amount of time that other ppl work plus gaming time. I hated it. Ive mined in every area in Eve minus WHs simply because I havent gotten there yet.

I enjoyed it. I got to work out, read, watch movies or just chat to people and surf the web. I was almost always semi afk doing it. But I was always there to change everything. I hated that a bot could mine the same 8 or sometimes, lolEmbarassedCrying or Very sad 12 or more hours a day Id mine and not have to do a single thing. I got a lot of other **** done mind you in the meantime and you get to study a lot.

Make stuff BREAK!! Bots will never use drones. Ever. There is NO keystroke for deploying drones. You can set it up where you can clone the mouse clicks fair enough.
Make stuff break only after most people that do play the game for fun will start to wear down. IE 1-2 hours game time. Your mining head bust. Deploy your repair drone to fix it. Fix time takes 30, 45 or maybe 60 secs. Your repair drone doesnt exist. But comes standard on all mining vessels. It doesnt come in the drone overview but a seperate one that you have to open through the UI of your ship. And randomly spawns in an area of your screen so you cannot clone mouse clicks in any way. You gotta BE there or eventually youll have no more lasers or whatever left.

You technically can do this for all weapon platforms based on time used. PvP engagements wouldnt last long enough for things to break. Anything done normally in the game wont be on long enough in a row to engage it and if engaged so what if your there. You can deploy your drone and fix it.


Mining like PI is also a great idea I already put forth here.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1483354

And if the cycles are long enough even a guy like me that can mine for hours and days on end if I want to without getting bored. Can still play the game but bots cant.

Scannable fields only please. I dont mind at all.Very Happy


what?
macro's control the mouse and keyboard. if a user can deploy the drones than so can the macro....

Eclorc
Posted - 2011.04.06 14:38:00 - [110]
 


Well, I enjoy the relaxing aspect of mining, especially in a group where some degree of co-operation is required. It's a social activity in that regard. Solo mining-grind for many hours is boring but necessary at times, tho I'd rather be mining in a relaxed group than solo.

I'd be well happy if CCP manage at some point to make it more interactive, like a PI-type scanner and mining laser targeting linked there somehow, but as noted before a few cycles per-scan before depletion could still allow the relaxing aspect to exist while nerfing the botters. Some scan-slaving of lasers to an Orca scanner might be good too, perhaps.

I'd hate to see the semi-afk usefulness of mining get killed by a too-intensive mini-game, some balance of interests would need to be examined in any change made, 1 cycle-depletion would simply kill the afk-ability.

Much of the problem a miner/indy guy faces is due to other folks that sell T1 stuff at mineral price with little or no profit margin. A good example is freighter (if u have to buy a BPC set) if building for sale then most of the profit margin over and above the mineral worth goes to the seller of the blueprints, with very little margin for the miner/producer.
I believe that is largely due to botter-mentality of shifting the large amount of minerals in one shot.
Why else would someone pay most of their margins to blueprint makers?


Eternus8lux8lucis
Minmatar
Whack-A-Mole
Posted - 2011.04.06 16:11:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Arnakoz


what?
macro's control the mouse and keyboard. if a user can deploy the drones than so can the macro....


No. Have it a two step process. And only when the pop up occurs. Just make the first step, having to click on an icon to get the overview popup to occur and then have it randomly come up somewhere on the screen so its never the same spot.


But macros cannot simply because its from a drop down menu on a right click on a location. So unless they can scroll through the list each time, certainly will be able to some day for sure. Its not possible to do.

So if you have actual proof Id love to hear it if not I really dont care much.Rolling Eyes

Hot Vherokior
Posted - 2011.04.06 17:49:00 - [112]
 

It's sad everyone plays for ISK.

And ISK is used to pay next PLEX and keep playing for ISK ---> dude: WTF? Laughing


IMHO people should play for enjoy. i.e. Bobby likes mining, then take your Hulk and mine. Meanwhile Tommy loves ratting. Good, then go and kill rats.

Is it so hard to understand? this is a GAME, not a job.

Holdout
Posted - 2011.04.06 18:24:00 - [113]
 

If you don't like mining, don't do it.

If you do like mining, do it.


Onkadis
Posted - 2011.04.06 18:25:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Hot Vherokior
It's sad everyone plays for ISK.

And ISK is used to pay next PLEX and keep playing for ISK ---> dude: WTF? Laughing


IMHO people should play for enjoy. i.e. Bobby likes mining, then take your Hulk and mine. Meanwhile Tommy loves ratting. Good, then go and kill rats.

Is it so hard to understand? this is a GAME, not a job.


You understand that most MMOs have a grind. The purpose of the grind is to use time wasting as a content provider since MMOs can't provide unlimited content.

Most games use the grind as a way of skilling-up your player to do more uber things in game. CCP uses money for the grind to buy more toys to use to kill people with, content as emergent player activity, namely through PvP.

So, yeah, your silly moralizing on game verses job is awesome, but it's completely naive about how MMOs work.


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