open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Drone effectiveness
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Mkah Mvet
Duolith Systems
Posted - 2011.03.28 08:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mkah Mvet on 31/03/2011 01:04:02
My situation is this:

I run missions with 2 different characters in the same mission at the same time. One character has better drone skills than the other. Both character will launch a flight of hobgoblins, set them to attack the same type of frigate.The character with worse skills tends to kill the frigate faster. Why is this?

With my skills according to EFT it should be 86 and 75 DPS. I did some math from the combat logs, but it doesn't compare the same target type, though the 'better' skilled character missed about 35% of the time (12 out of 34) while the 'worse' skilled character missed 3 out of 34 shots.

I will look for combat logs against the same target type if I need to, but is this basically a case of better skills = worse performance? Is it a known issue?

Edit: updated data for a bigger sample size. The bigger the sample size, the worse the margin between good and bad skills.
41.25|38.04 -8% Coreli Guardian Agent
34.61|32.70 -6% initiate
26.81|24.25 -9% protector
35.69|39.61 +10% spy
39.14|36.06 -8% all drones

The data seems to show that I'm only getting 1/2 the benefit I should be for better drone skills. How much data would I need to prove whether or not it's statistically significant?

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.03.28 10:17:00 - [2]
 

could be the drone tracking/speed trying to hit the smaller targets? iv heard that if you max out drone speed they can get tracking problems not sure if that is true but only thing i can think of...
id be interested to know the answer to this as well.

Frank Millar
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.28 11:10:00 - [3]
 

Tracking issues due to incresed speed seems likely.

Any way to test this on a bigger target (cruiser), so tracking becomes less problematic?

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.28 12:04:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Mkah Mvet
Both character will launch a flight of hobgoblins, set them to attack the same type of frigate.The character with worse skills tends to kill the frigate faster. Why is this?


I can't find any serious post or comment about this issue but yes it seems that higher is your drone navigation skill more they have trouble to hit small stuff, now if I think it's pretty awesome to see them change/travel from target to target quick I hate the idea of this kind of drawback witch it seems it isn't expected (nothing in this skill says they'll go faster but hit lesser)

Got one char up to 4 another left at 2 and yes there is some difference of dmg application at small targets, the char with less sp in navigation kills the same frig type slightly faster.

Maneck StreetPreacher
Gallente
haudquaquam munificus
Posted - 2011.03.28 12:12:00 - [5]
 

According to some older sources, this was a well documented problem with increased drone nav, several years ago. But CCP supposedly fixed it. The fact that people haven't been complaining about it the whole time I've been playing suggests they probably did.

So why is it happening again? Maybe a new patch has screwed things.

Mkah, sounds like you've already taken the time to gather some data. I suggest posting it in the bug forum. It's not supposed to be that way.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.28 12:26:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher
The fact that people haven't been complaining about it the whole time I've been playing suggests they probably did.


Last time I've petitioned about blaster issues GM's send me back to EFT warriors insuring me Blasters are fine has they are.

So wy waste time with that when I already waste a lot on trying to play the game that I pay for?

Sajeera
Posted - 2011.03.28 16:10:00 - [7]
 

I've noticed problem with my dronies lately aswell. They used to hit perfectly fine but lately my valkeries are often missing on cruisers and my goblins and warriors are missing on frigates alot. Im pretty sure it wasn't that bad before.

Even more i've fought some guy in my curse, he was in a shield tanked cruiser with a huge sig, was neuted and nearly stationary and still my drones was missing like half the time. Dont know if im imagining thing but i've never noticed things like that before.

Mkah Mvet
Duolith Systems
Posted - 2011.03.28 20:23:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Mkah Mvet on 28/03/2011 21:33:05
Ok, update
I converted my combat logs to spreadsheets (total pain btw), and came up with some numbers.

main, alt, % NPC
41.25|38.04 -8% Coreli Guardian Agent
34.61|32.7 -6% initiate
26.81|24.25 -9% protector
35.69|39.61 +10% spy

My numbers don't seem to reflect the difference as much as I expected, though the difference was supposed to be about 14%. This is just preliminary information and more would need to be collected and analyzed, but it seems to support that the disparity between skills is messed up, as I suspected.

*edit, improved my data above.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.28 22:00:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: mkmin on 28/03/2011 22:01:04
petition?

Ave Kathrina
Posted - 2011.03.29 02:02:00 - [10]
 

I can only add annecdotally, that my drones since Incursion have been getting fewer hits smaller targets (medium drones with 3 x omni's used to chew through npc frigs) they now seem to have very high rate of misses.

Drone navigating only affects the drone speed while that are in transit (using thier mwd) to get from the target they just destroyed to orbiting a new target, they'll usually start firing when they get into thier range before actually adopting orbit (and missing until they are in a nice tight orbit..)

Frigs orbiting your Dom really close might be going way too fast for the drone sub warp drive to keep them in effective range.

Mkah Mvet
Duolith Systems
Posted - 2011.03.29 03:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ave Kathrina
I can only add annecdotally, that my drones since Incursion have been getting fewer hits smaller targets (medium drones with 3 x omni's used to chew through npc frigs) they now seem to have very high rate of misses.

Drone navigating only affects the drone speed while that are in transit (using thier mwd) to get from the target they just destroyed to orbiting a new target, they'll usually start firing when they get into thier range before actually adopting orbit (and missing until they are in a nice tight orbit..)

Frigs orbiting your Dom really close might be going way too fast for the drone sub warp drive to keep them in effective range.


Well, anecdotally, when I put drones on 2 different targets, the char with the lower skills always gets the kill faster, even if the target of the better skills is webbed. The numbers show a slight advantage for the better character, but out of over 700 shots, I think statistically, the difference should be bigger. But I don't know statistics that well. What is a reliable sample size?

Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
Posted - 2011.03.29 12:16:00 - [12]
 

This is tricky stuff and almost completely depends on the specific skills of either character, their ships, the drones used and their targets.

Lemme start with the tl;dr version:

Yeah it can happen. Statistically, over time, your better drone skilled character will do more damage, or, in a more real world application, will burn through a room of enemies faster.



The problem with drones is their freaky method of applying damage. As someone mentioned before, the skill Drone Navigation 'only' increases MWD speed, not base/normal/orbit speed. In a same way the skill Drone Sharpshooting increases the drone's optimal range, not it's activation range.

Quick recap:
A drone will travel to its target until it reaches activation range. Once it reaches activation range it will start to orbit and shoot. A drone's speed is not influenced by skills or control ships, it's MWD speed is influenced by skills and mods and rigs. A drone's orbit speed is therefore only influenced by the target's movements.

Now, with very high skills (and definitely with mods/rigs) you can run into a lot of issues with this, which is very easy to try out for yourself, just get a cruiser, stuff some drone nav cpu's on it with warrior IIs and find a small, stationary target. The thing with small drones is their small activation range.

A warrior II has an activation range of 1km, which is not influenced by anything. However it's quite simple to get it's MWD speed up to ~7+ km/s, meaning it can approach a target, get to 1km, turn off MWD, coast due to it's high speed for 2km, get out of 1km range and re-engage it's MWD, leading to silly MWD-ing warrior IIs that might shoot once every 10 seconds iso once every 4 seconds.

As you can imagine this becomes a lot less of an issue with larger drones and moving targets, medium drones have a 2 km activation and lower MWD speed and for heavy drones this is even more so. Sentries just have an activation range of 250km, so they will basically 'always' start shooting right off.
It's not all great for bigger drones though, light drones start with a 1 km activation range and 1km optimal range, meaning they will always be in optimal range when shooting, regardless of skills. Medium and Heavy drones also start with a 1 km optimal and will therefore, unless you have a very strange build, always start shooting in fall-off range.

That said, for the OP's case, with the DPS mentioned, it's probably light drones. Now with medium and heavy drones you will probably statistically find it hard to do more damage with a lower skilled character than a high skilled character on the same target (due to the higher optimal range and the statistical advantage of being in better range). But, with light drones, you might get the influence of the higher MWD speed causing the drones to be out of activation range more often hence shooting less often and between either character always in optimal anyway.

On a more general level, the higher MWD speeds will always cause heavier coasting effects which might lead to different orbit paths and thus different (not always worse) tracking effects for the drones. If you have a certain enemy and certain drones and you move in a certain way causing your enemy to orbit you in a certain way, certainly, your drone DPS will be influenced. However, with multiple enemies (like a room of NPCs) the higher MWD speed will generally lead to more damage over time (which is generally not the same as DPS) caused by drones, so you'll do missions faster anyway.

Yay drones!

Joran Dravius
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:09:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mkah Mvet
With my skills according to EFT it should be 86 and 75 DPS. I did some math from the combat logs, but it doesn't compare the same target type, though the 'better' skilled character missed about 35% of the time (12 out of 34) while the 'worse' skilled character missed 3 out of 34 shots.

My guess would be that the higher SP character has drone speed trained significantly higher than drone tracking.

Vicker Lahn'se
Minmatar
STRAG3S
Posted - 2011.03.29 22:08:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Vicker Lahn''se on 29/03/2011 22:11:03
Your sample size is too small.

Edit: Nevermind, I was referring to your earlier post about having 34 samples. 700 should be plenty.

Mkah Mvet
Duolith Systems
Posted - 2011.03.31 01:12:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Keitaro Baka
This is tricky stuff and almost completely depends on the specific skills of either character, their ships, the drones used and their targets.

Lemme start with the tl;dr version:

Yeah it can happen. Statistically, over time, your better drone skilled character will do more damage, or, in a more real world application, will burn through a room of enemies faster.


Yay drones!

I've also noticed my drones tend to get stuck in MWD orbits more often lately. I can alt-tab between clients and see one set orbiting fast, the other slowly. And yes, I'm using light drones. The big thing that set me off on this is setting light drones from one character on a target (i.e. one tackling frig) and setting another rack of light on another of the same type of tackling frig, and the worse skilled character reliably gets the kill faster. Launching ships have no drone bonuses, they are always within 500m of each other or closer, and the better skilled character has every drone skill better.

The observation of the faster kill is anecdotal, but reliably repeatable. It did prompt me to checking the combat logs and it showed that difference, which didn't show exactly what I expected, but close enough to demonstrate some problem, and to ask if anyone else has noticed similar.

Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.31 01:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mkah Mvet
Edited by: Mkah Mvet on 31/03/2011 01:04:02
My situation is this:

I run missions with 2 different characters in the same mission at the same time. One character has better drone skills than the other. Both character will launch a flight of hobgoblins, set them to attack the same type of frigate.The character with worse skills tends to kill the frigate faster. Why is this?

With my skills according to EFT it should be 86 and 75 DPS. I did some math from the combat logs, but it doesn't compare the same target type, though the 'better' skilled character missed about 35% of the time (12 out of 34) while the 'worse' skilled character missed 3 out of 34 shots.

I will look for combat logs against the same target type if I need to, but is this basically a case of better skills = worse performance? Is it a known issue?

Edit: updated data for a bigger sample size. The bigger the sample size, the worse the margin between good and bad skills.
41.25|38.04 -8% Coreli Guardian Agent
34.61|32.70 -6% initiate
26.81|24.25 -9% protector
35.69|39.61 +10% spy
39.14|36.06 -8% all drones

The data seems to show that I'm only getting 1/2 the benefit I should be for better drone skills. How much data would I need to prove whether or not it's statistically significant?


I have also noticed this and am overall disappoint with the maximum damage output of tech 2 mediums and tech 2 heavies.

Even in level 4 missions it takes stupid long to dps down a ship of appropriate size relative to the drone.

However I have some good news for you..

The issue with the drones doing less damage with higher skill level will be resolved in an upcoming patch.

Mkah Mvet
Duolith Systems
Posted - 2011.03.31 01:47:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Xenuria
Originally by: Mkah Mvet
Edited by: Mkah Mvet on 31/03/2011 01:04:02
My situation is this:

I run missions with 2 different characters in the same mission at the same time. One character has better drone skills than the other. Both character will launch a flight of hobgoblins, set them to attack the same type of frigate.The character with worse skills tends to kill the frigate faster. Why is this?

With my skills according to EFT it should be 86 and 75 DPS. I did some math from the combat logs, but it doesn't compare the same target type, though the 'better' skilled character missed about 35% of the time (12 out of 34) while the 'worse' skilled character missed 3 out of 34 shots.

I will look for combat logs against the same target type if I need to, but is this basically a case of better skills = worse performance? Is it a known issue?

Edit: updated data for a bigger sample size. The bigger the sample size, the worse the margin between good and bad skills.
41.25|38.04 -8% Coreli Guardian Agent
34.61|32.70 -6% initiate
26.81|24.25 -9% protector
35.69|39.61 +10% spy
39.14|36.06 -8% all drones

The data seems to show that I'm only getting 1/2 the benefit I should be for better drone skills. How much data would I need to prove whether or not it's statistically significant?


I have also noticed this and am overall disappoint with the maximum damage output of tech 2 mediums and tech 2 heavies.

Even in level 4 missions it takes stupid long to dps down a ship of appropriate size relative to the drone.

However I have some good news for you..

The issue with the drones doing less damage with higher skill level will be resolved in an upcoming patch.

Thought I read it was supposed to be fixed in a previous patch. Where do you get your info?

Merk Muldain
Posted - 2011.03.31 17:17:00 - [18]
 

That'd be sarcasm for you.

Merk Muldain
Posted - 2011.03.31 17:30:00 - [19]
 

That'd be sarcasm for you.


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only