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blankseplocked [Proposal] Remove CSM, and replace with Player base Voting
 
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Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:23:00 - [1]
 

I've made it fairly clear in the past; that I don't really trust CSM members. There are two reasons for this.

1. CSM have access to Dev information, and NDA stuff; which makes it easier for them, to exploit the game system. Effectively, a CSM with programming experience, can encourage changes; that make it easier, for him/her, to program invisible hacks, bots, and macro's, to exploit the game. It also gives the opportunity, for them to be forewarned about changes; that would make it easier to catch botter's, hackers, and RMT's.

2. CSM members account for a very small percentage of the playerbase; and generally pursue their own goals, and seldom care about the rest of the communities opinion. Any one of us, might agree with CSM on some points; but really, do we agree with any, on all points? No, I don't believe that's possible; and those that do, are likely just following.

Playerbase voting centers in game, with the coming Incarna features; would be a far better mean s to poll the community on upcoming changes. Dock at any station, unpod, and walk into the voting center; a brief interaction with the agent there, and you recieve a poll sheet to fill out. News of new votes being cast; could be relayed on billboards, and in the login screen.

I think this would be far more comprehensive; and return greater results, than bouncing idea's off a handful of people.

Keep the CSM, if you want; but limit their access. Use them only, as an addition to the playerbase polling; while presenting them with majority votes, as received through that venue. This would be more practical, and achieve greater results; from which to determine the best course, for future development.

Also, remove the assembly hall + Speakers Corner, or limit it. Make it so players can only click support in Speakers Corner; and limit New Topics, to one post per week, per player, in assembly hall. Limit Assembly Hall responses, to 2 supports per day; and remove posting responses.

Leave that to the Idea's forum.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:49:00 - [2]
 


Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:55:00 - [3]
 

*hands Cassus his tinfoil hat

dude really? ok..
First of all we are not ebil creatures out to ruin your internet spaceships, we are actual here to make it better. CSM represents the player base that voted. I m sure most of us would def not be using this (HUGE OVERLAOD of work) to just get dev hax or exploit. We care about this community and game enough to dedicate a minimum of 1 year to this council and what it means.

Now to your actual point on opening things up to player votes.
CCP cant effectively run if they had to turn every discussion point into polls. each one would be its own circus with half the population not voting and powerblocs rallying votes in an even more skewed way to influence outcomes.

Believe it or not, while many of the CSM Delegates represent large groups it doesn't mean we don't want to try and make everything better for everyone.

paracidic
High Venture Team
Red Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.28 03:31:00 - [4]
 

Hey Charlie Sheen, I think the OP found your missing Coke.

Anyway, Tbh this is the first time in the 7 (almost 8 years) that I have any confidence in anything that ccp does. Also the first time ever that I have even taken an interest in the CSM. I have spent the last 4 years fighting Mittens and his riff raff in this game. It is the only thing that gives me pleasure really in this game and I have done everything this game has to offer. Except DEV.

This game is severely broken, I am almoast always on the edge of selling everything and doing something incredibly dumb yet exciting, like buying that Rev bpc and gate camping in it till it dies. Kinda be a Cyvok in my own right :)

But for now I am going to hold on and play instead of joining the ranks of bitter vets. So sincerely Thanks Mittens and co.

For some reason Mittens gives me a bit of hope that some attention will be given to this game and the broken parts of it.

Time will tell but I for one will be watching this csm closely and with interest.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:33:00 - [5]
 

Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:19:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
*hands Cassus his tinfoil hat

dude really? ok..
First of all we are not ebil creatures out to ruin your internet spaceships, we are actual here to make it better. CSM represents the player base that voted. I m sure most of us would def not be using this (HUGE OVERLAOD of work) to just get dev hax or exploit. We care about this community and game enough to dedicate a minimum of 1 year to this council and what it means.

Now to your actual point on opening things up to player votes.
CCP cant effectively run if they had to turn every discussion point into polls. each one would be its own circus with half the population not voting and powerblocs rallying votes in an even more skewed way to influence outcomes.

Believe it or not, while many of the CSM Delegates represent large groups it doesn't mean we don't want to try and make everything better for everyone.


Dude.. that's original.

CCP can't function if a Playerbase polling system is introduced? Really? Laughing What is so difficult about asking the playerbase a question? Red hat's, or blue? I imagine, it's far more trouble; to gather CSM, and put the questions out that way.

I voted, but I don't hold much confidence in those I voted for. I live in a 'Democratic' country; and recognize how much bull**** it is. Democracy by Proxy; is absolute garbage.

Powerbloc's rallying votes from the playerbase? What would you call the last voting session for CSM then? Right. Powerbloc's manipulating votes; by pushing their alliance members to vote for them. All what's in an individuals best interests, isn't it. And you all get a free trip to Iceland too. Nice.

So, please explain to me, how the powerbloc's, are going to persuade; and manipulate votes, out of the vast majority of EVE players? Free chewtoys. I know some of them are rabid; but, I expect they can find their own.

See how impressed I am; with your being CSM. Shows the respect you've all earned, doesn't it?

Here's the truth. Since CSM has been implemented, the vast majority of EVE; has become disatisfied with changes made to the game. Pure success right there. In the last 3-4 years alone; the game has been in a downward spiral. This is what happens, when you rely on ten people; to provide opinions for over 400'000.

I won't say some of you don't care; as, I know that is not true. Some do, in every election; and some of those, may actually chair, in a CSM. The fact is I find most of your business, utter nonsense; and can't believe, we're all relying on you, to provide our voice to CCP.

I am by the way; quite convinced, that access to that material, is of interest to some. Let's face it; we're talking about real money here. By your logic; RMT, don't even exist. Yet, they do. And what better way to refine ones code; than accessing, CCP's very own codebase. Seem's pretty simple to me. I think you're wearing a tinfoil hat; which is to say, you're entirely blind to reality. It must be nice to live under the delusion; that everything is tea and cupcakes, and people are only bad in a game. The world doesn't work that way.

Sure, maybe I'm wrong about Trebor; and I've considered the alternative: He's really just a giddy little kid; who can't keep his hands out of the butter. He loves butter. Butter is the most important thing in the world.

Maybe I'm wrong about E-Uni too; but, I am entitled to my opinion, and suspicion. Even if I'm wrong about that; it doesn't change the fact that they are utter, reprehensible jerks. I haven't found anybody, who wasn't a lapdog; that disagreed with me on that point at all. Everybody agree's on this though: Don't challenge them; and leave them alone. They have the ability to completely screw up your game; and make it so it's not even worth playing anymore. Why is that?

I could speculate, and have. ISD's, GM's, etc..

Better for who?

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.28 08:48:00 - [7]
 

So CCP can directly ignore all the players directly? Sure, why not.
It would save on a few flights to Iceland that we have to pay for to be ignored.

StyphonUK
Caldari
Fearless Bandits
Fearless Bears
Posted - 2011.03.28 10:19:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: StyphonUK on 28/03/2011 10:20:36
Originally by: Cassus Temon
Dude.. that's original.

Better for who?


My GOD! The horror! Please, please, please stop butchering the English language! Learn how to type properly for all our sakes.

; should only be used when you wish to continue a sentence that naturally should be split into two! And you don't need a comma after every 3 words!

As for the crap between the bad grammar, stop being so paranoid. CSM actually has brought about some good changes. They bring the best of our ideas to CCP.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.03.29 00:48:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: StyphonUK
Edited by: StyphonUK on 28/03/2011 10:20:36
Originally by: Cassus Temon
Dude.. that's original.

Better for who?


My GOD! The horror! Please, please, please, stop butchering the English language! Learn how to type properly, for all our sakes.

Semi-Colon's should only be used, when you wish to continue a sentence; that, naturally, should be split into two! You don't need a comma, after every 3 words!

As for the crap, between the bad grammar; you, can stop being so paranoid. CSM, has actually brought about some good changes. They bring the best, of our ideas, to CCP.
- edited, for poor punctuation, and grammatical errors, just to cheese you off.


I'll admit, I had a few typo's; but my sentence structure was fine. I'm not sure, if it's an American, (USA), Thing, but making long strings of words, with comma's, and periods for punctuation; is not proper sentence structure, in this neck of the woods. It's called a Run-on sentence. Must be the US. If I had formed my sentences the way, I see half of you do, in school; I would have barely floundered my way through English, with little better than a C-. If the sentence was meant to be split in two, it would be.

I'm not paranoid, I'm realistic, and trying to get my point across; while perhap's exaggerating a few points, to make myself look either paranoid, or omnipresent. Not sure which. Frankly, I just don't like RMT. I also don't particularly like, those that would choose to use the CSM, to their own benefit; whether it be flogging dead horses for their buddies, or attempting to make changes to the game, that benfit a specific group. i.e: Nullsec'rs.

Whatever it is, it is happening. Unless a person were in the inner circle, around the CSM Delegate, however; there is little chance, that anyone would have any real knowledge of motives, or reason. Often, we can but see, the end result.

By the way. Proper sentence structure; or you might as well just use Internet acronyms, and 13375p34k.


David Hassan
Posted - 2011.03.29 05:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.



Democracy only works in very small populations. When the population exceeds that limit, a representative democracy works better.



Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.03.29 06:45:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 29/03/2011 06:46:58
Originally by: Cassus Temon
CCP can't function if a Playerbase polling system is introduced? Really? Laughing What is so difficult about asking the playerbase a question? Red hat's, or blue? I imagine, it's far more trouble; to gather CSM, and put the questions out that way.


The CSM allows CCP to engage in meaningful dialogue with the representatives of the player base. Do you expect all players to sign - and be held to - an NDA? How would any players make meaningful contributions if they are not aware of issues beyond the endless requests for CCP to fix assault frigates, add a Hello Kitty Kestrel, make boobs jiggle, or improve ratting income for nullsec care bears.

Quote:
So, please explain to me, how the powerbloc's, are going to persuade; and manipulate votes, out of the vast majority of EVE players?


It is up to the players to vote for people to represent them. All it takes for Goons to prevail is fir enough hisec care bears to do nothing.

Quote:
Here's the truth. Since CSM has been implemented, the vast majority of EVE; has become disatisfied with changes made to the game.


While that may be the Truth, the facts speak differently. More people voted in CSM5 than ever before, more people participated in discussion than ever before - this implies that more people thought CSM was worth paying attention to.

Quote:
Sure, maybe I'm wrong about Trebor; and E-Uni too; but, I am entitled to my opinion, and suspicion.


Can you provide any evidence to support your fears? Trawl through the copious minutes and crowd sourcing projects to show us just how bad Trebor really is.

Spazz21
Rage For Order
Nihil-Obstat
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:50:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: David Hassan
Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.



Democracy only works in very small populations. When the population exceeds that limit, a representative democracy works better.





^^^ This.

While player input is good, you can't have all players suggestions taken and voted on. It would become a constant voting system and people would disagree on stuff left to right. Then you also have to take trolls into consideration. If we didn't have CSM, people would form something similar to CSM except be lobbyists for you to vote on something anyways.

As far as the security stuff, no. Someone was caught doing that before and was removed. I'm sure CCP keeps an eye on CSM activities. And I'm pretty sure if they were caught taking the code of eve, or whatever to make "Invisibots" or whatever you called it. It would be in violation of the NDA, and depending on the legal department, it may be possible to seek lawsuits against that person. EvE is intellectual property, therefore any damages done to it, can result in prosecution.

So no. Getting rid of CSM wouldn't fix anything, just make things worse.

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.31 11:36:00 - [13]
 


Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.03.31 13:38:00 - [14]
 

no, because one of the major rules in EVE is: Never underestimate the stupidity of other players.

I don't want majority voting of the player base to have that sort of effect on the game.

Greniard
Posted - 2011.03.31 22:07:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Greniard on 31/03/2011 22:07:27
Originally by: Awesome Possum
no, because one of the major rules in EVE is: Never underestimate the stupidity of other players.

I don't want majority voting of the player base to have that sort of effect on the game.


Pretty much this.

No matter how much the CSM decide to vote in their personal/alliance interests, at least most of the have some kind of a clue about the game.

Also the biggest problem with player based voting would be the lack of dialog. No, troll infested forums don't count.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.04.01 00:42:00 - [16]
 

I think the problem is that players vote for candidates who have lousy platforms; voting players don't understand what the CSM does, and they vote for the wrong candidates. Top winner is a good example.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.04.01 07:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think the problem is that players vote for candidates who have lousy platforms; voting players don't understand what the CSM does, and they vote for the wrong candidates. Top winner is a good example.


umadbro?

Astroka
Posted - 2011.04.02 08:50:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: David Hassan
Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.



Democracy only works in very small populations. When the population exceeds that limit, a representative democracy works better.

This.

Also, I'm reading everything you type as though you spoke that way. Honestly, it's taking me far too long to even read one sentence. It takes me longer to read one independent clause than it should to read a full paragraph.

You, do not have to, type like this. It is, simply; incorrect. It is, difficult to understand; how you do not, realize that you; are the one, who is typing incorrectly.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.


And representative democracy is even worse. Don't be a moron.


Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.02 19:02:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 02/04/2011 19:03:21
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.


And representative democracy is even worse. Don't be a moron.




Think about all those matter that don't interest even 10% of total population, what would you think a vote for this matter would look like?

This CSM has 2 or 3 interesting persons inside, everything else it's just the result of nerds vote incapable to speak/write/read correctly their own language but it's the mirror of this game, like it or not it's a fact.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.04.03 18:54:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Cassus Temon on 03/04/2011 18:59:28
Originally by: Astroka
Originally by: David Hassan
Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.



Democracy only works in very small populations. When the population exceeds that limit, a representative democracy works better.

This.

Also, I'm reading everything you type as though you spoke that way. Honestly, it's taking me far too long to even read one sentence. It takes me longer to read one independent clause than it should to read a full paragraph.

You, do not have to, type like this. It is, simply; incorrect. It is, difficult to understand; how you do not, realize that you; are the one, who is typing incorrectly.



Oh yes. That's very representative, of the way I type. Quit being a troll, you idiot; as anyone can see, you are f'ing it up badly.

I'll admit, it's harder to edit my own typing, than someone elses; but, it's mostly correct, and perfectly readable.

Simple rules: The comma is a break in a sentence, similar to a pause; and, a semi-colon, is a division, (between two halves), of the same sentence. You can also use comma's, to introduce a silent, supporting idea, as above; and, to create a list, of up to 3 independent examples.

John, Jake, and Mary; went to the prom.

Run Spot, run.

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:37:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Tyme Xandr on 04/04/2011 20:38:02
Isnt CSM just the group of people that listen to forum whine and present it to CCP (who also reads forum whine)?

If anything it allows them to not pay someone to do what CCP peoples randomly surf around doing anyhow.

I dont think CSM will get us everything we ever wanted or dreamed of (as evidence of every other CSM), or even much of what they want, but they report on what they presented and what CCP said they would be inclined to investigate.

With CSM we have had some things we've been expressing a want for - but CCP has their own agenda and that ultimately comes first.

This was in no way meant to bash or endorse either CSM, the fanbase, or CCP.

iudex
Posted - 2011.04.06 20:29:00 - [23]
 

Agreed. Certain questions or decisions that CCP wants the community to take part in can be enquired by direct votes. That gives a better result on what the community likes.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.06 21:31:00 - [24]
 

Less than 10% of the EVE playerbase could be arsed to vote on something that affects everyone.. and THAT was the largest turnout in history. How is this going to help at all?

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.04.06 22:02:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Dock at any station, unpod, and walk into the voting center; a brief interaction with the agent there, and you recieve a poll sheet to fill out. News of new votes being cast; could be relayed on billboards

Way to break immersion. Obtuse ISD members writing about CSM as if it were IC is bad enough.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:55:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Cassus Temon on 07/04/2011 06:55:29
Originally by: Mirabi Tiane
Quote:
Dock at any station, unpod, and walk into the voting center; a brief interaction with the agent there, and you recieve a poll sheet to fill out. News of new votes being cast; could be relayed on billboards

Way to break immersion. Obtuse ISD members writing about CSM as if it were IC is bad enough.


Laughing

I'm sorry, I never read that.

If the voting was accessible in stations, then more players would vote. Sure it's slightly taking away from immersion, but I for one, don't find myself particularly concerned by the notion. I don't think I've truly been immersed in any game, for well over 10 years.

Games I was immersed in, way back when:

Dragon Warrior I & II
Phantasy Star I & II. - Tried III briefly, but never got into it, as it was at my friends house.
Final Fantasy I-IV or V. - Can't quite remember which ones I play, and I lost interest when it moved to 3rd person mode.
Ys

..more like that, though I can't remember them.

Gran Tourismo III & IV were good too, as was Ace Combat IV, and Armored Core: Silent Line and Last Raven. Lot's of other good games, but my 'spark' was lost sometime around when Final Fantasy went to 3rd Person 3D mode. A lot of anime influence seeped into video games around that time, which I found I didn't much like. The old storyline short movies were cool; the new ones, not so much. Something changed and I lost interest.

Now, I play games for other reasons. Experimentation is part of it, as is social activity, and experiencing what the developers have to offer. Seeing their work. Sometimes I'm really impressed, like with EVE here. Sure, I don't play much, usually just log in and chat with a few friends, though I may sometimes run a site, or do a quick few missions, or even do a bit of PvP. And, like now, sometimes I just don't feel like playing much anymore, and decide it's time to take a break. Once a year usually. This time I'm going a little further than the past two, and selling my mains and an alt. I'll still have one character training, and doing some trade in Jita when I feel like it, but otherwise expect to be mostly out of the game for the next few months.

Immersion? There's real life too. This is just a step between that.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2011.04.07 08:12:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.


And representative democracy is even worse. Don't be a moron.




That's why a representative republic is far better. Of course, in the United States we've been transmorphed into a representative democracy when they turned the US Senate into a second house of representatives with the 17th Amendment. Rolling Eyes

Adrie Atticus
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
Posted - 2011.04.07 12:18:00 - [28]
 

99% of the time players do not know what is best for them.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:17:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Aineko Macx on 10/04/2011 07:17:55
Originally by: Astroka
Originally by: David Hassan
Originally by: Voogru
Direct Democracy is a terrible idea.

Democracy only works in very small populations. When the population exceeds that limit, a representative democracy works better.

This.

Yes, and also: Voting as dialog mechanism is way too limited to replace complex subject discussions and complex solution development, for instance.

AveryFaneActual
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.10 11:43:00 - [30]
 

WHOSE RESPONSIBLE THIS


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