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blankseplocked [ISSUE] Remove Margin Trading
 
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Vieror Telon
Posted - 2011.04.25 15:21:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
The problem is the negative impact this has on people using the Margin Trading skill for less nefarious purposes. THAT's the balance that the smart guys in Iceland are supposed to be paid to solve. Destroying the usefulness of the skill almost entirely in order to prevent a couple of scams (which, let's be honest...only take advantage of greedy people) is not a proper solution. It seems in this thread that the people who are opposed to margin trading are people who don't use and/or don't understand margin trading. /unsupported


Where is the negative impact in not allowing a buyer set a minimum amount for margin trading. This simply makes the scammers have a risky proposition while legitimate traders can continue to margin trade.

Im fairly new to the trading side of things and i am hoping someone can enlighten me as to if this will have any impact at all on legitimate traders.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.04.28 00:14:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Vieror Telon


Where is the negative impact in not allowing a buyer set a minimum amount for margin trading. This simply makes the scammers have a risky proposition while legitimate traders can continue to margin trade.

Im fairly new to the trading side of things and i am hoping someone can enlighten me as to if this will have any impact at all on legitimate traders.


Take Jita and surrounding systems, for example. There is no lowsec 5 jumps from it, but there are many free manufacturing slots in the area. If I want to buy, for example, t1 modules in bulk to use them in t2 production, I will set up a buy order that covers 5 jumps with a minimum quantity of 50 to 100 t1 modules, depending on the module. I don't even want to undock a freighter for 1 or 2 modules per station.

Since I don't really care which modules will I get, because I have t2 bpcs for all ordered modules, but different modules require different t1 versions, I'll set up buy orders for all of them using margin trading skill to cover all possible orders. As soon as the ISK gets depleted and orders start to bounce, I will have all t1 modules that I need.

The problem is not direct profitability (you can just buy random numbers of t1 modules and work from there), but time. By using margin trading skill, I always get the maximum amount of items for the minimum amount of time, which enables me to be competitive on the market and make profit faster.

Just because there are people who were too lazy to get familiar with descriptions of only 13 trade skills, but are willing to throw billions on the market anyway, doesn't mean that all of us playing this game don't know what we are doing. Of course there are some people who profit from MT scams, but they are only profiting on those who forget the #1 rule of EVE: If it's too good to be true, it's probably a scam.

Btw. it's like saying that corporation recruitment should be banned because there are some corporations that will just take all your stuff and gank you.

Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
Tauri Federation
Posted - 2011.04.28 00:22:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
Originally by: Aidan Patrick


Does this fix the problem? Maybe not... but what it does do is bring risk to the scam, hell that change might even make people more inclined to bite the scam. Is that a bad thing? Depends on your point of view. But buyer education and common sense should always rule the day.


TL;DR - Add Risk To Scamming


The problem is the negative impact this has on people using the Margin Trading skill for less nefarious purposes.

THAT's the balance that the smart guys in Iceland are supposed to be paid to solve. Destroying the usefulness of the skill almost entirely in order to prevent a couple of scams (which, let's be honest...only take advantage of greedy people) is not a proper solution.

It seems in this thread that the people who are opposed to margin trading are people who don't use and/or don't understand margin trading.

/unsupported


My thought on the matter, is if you are being a legitimate trader, other than mass amounts of minerals - what reason would you have to place a minimum quantity on a buy order for something like guns?

I could see making an exception for minerals and ores, but allowing someone to post a buy order with minimum quantities on stuff like guns and other multi-million or even hundred million ISK mods and ships... Is just asking for the exploit of this.

Hell, admittedly if I didn't have the guns in my cargohold from a stockpile, I would have fallen for that scam. Why? Because theres not a way to make sure it can be fulfilled other than having the required quantity and trying.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.04.28 00:39:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 28/04/2011 00:40:17
Originally by: Aidan Patrick

My thought on the matter, is if you are being a legitimate trader, other than mass amounts of minerals - what reason would you have to place a minimum quantity on a buy order for something like guns?

Can you, please, read just one post above yours? Thanks.

Tekedo
Danger Girl.
Posted - 2011.04.28 06:26:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
If someone wants to get rid of a toon with a negative balance and start over, they have to make a new account and pay the $5 activation fee.


Dude, 5 bucks and a week training for each character till margin trading level 4 is but a small price to pay for unlimited isk.

In fact people would even get around that 5 bucks buy using a fraction of the ill-gotten isk to purchase a plex.

Seriously people, think this through! Under no circumstances whatsoever should margin trading be able to get a character into the negative!

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.29 07:22:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Shandir

...

However:
The scam used is a perfectly valid (and pretty clever) scam, all things considered, as the part that's a scam is the part where you buy something for a vastly inflated price - do your research and don't assume that the current one or two orders are valid. It's not difficult to spot and avoid if you understand the mechanics of trading. It can even be done without margin trading, it's just harder and riskier.

Edit: To be clear, I don't support the proposal - the skill is useful. Nerf it, perhaps, but do not remove it.


Doing it without the skill is a legitimate scam; using the skill it's an unbeatable scam that functions based on game mechanics. There is no click vs. click player contest, the game just removes the order because their is no ISK. That makes it an exploit, though it be the result of 'legal' game mechanics. The problem is most people have no idea they are up against a game mechanic, until they train the skill and fail to have the ISK balance required for a buy order, resulting in its cancellation. Until that happens, or you consider a dozen possibilities after getting scammed, you don't really know. People reading this thread might understand it of course, though I've noticed a few seem to have completely missed the point and reason behind the threads posting.

To clarify, (not for you Shandir as it's obvious you already know), the function of the scam.

1. Perfectly legit trader,( who will never be identified due to orders being impossible to fill, resulting in no transactions), transfers all his ISK to an alt or to his Corp wallet, and puts up a (100% Margin Trading) Buy Order for useless item #1. Perhaps even Multiple times. Useless item in this case is nearly non-existant on market, with perhaps a few sell orders from same trader at same ISK value, plus a bit, as the buy order. Buy Order is very high and unrealistic for this item.

2. Trader transfers majority of useless item #1, in bulk, to useless biomassable alt along with a few items of moderate value that are in extremely low demand, such as T2 small Drone Rig's or Capital Construction Components. Trader then uses useless alt to create an item exchange contract in the fashion of a firesale, for somewhat less than half, or more, the sale value of useless item #1 to his useless Buy Order for approximately the same number of Useless Item #1 items. Contract is posted to Jita local.

3. Trader may at this point enter second useless alt, and spam Jita local with comments about how the Contract issuer is losing ISK, and may even argue with himself for effect using the first useless Alt.

4. The Buyer. Some poor guy in local who may realize it's a scam, (He most likely does if he has the ISK to cover it), but doesn't realize he's not up against someones twitch reflexes, or a bunch of guys in voice chat running the scam. He is most unaware, and set full up against the wall of an unknown game mechanic, unbeatable and fully in favor of even an afk or offline scammer.

5. Buyer, probably aware of the scam and thinking he can beat it, sets up his menus, windows, and boxes so he can click-click-click, and sell those useless items as fast as possible, then he waits. Gives it a few minutes, maybe even five to ten, before preparing himself to duel the unseen adversary, then proceeds to do the inevitable, which spells out certain doom for him. He accepts the contract.

The buyer in this case could in fact wait ten days to fill the buy order, or he could fill it within less than a second of accepting the contract. He is relying on an opponent having human responses, giving in to inattention, or just being to slow, yet he is up against an adversary which suffers from none of these deficits and for whom time is not a factor. There can only be one answer, and that is a resounding, "No! Impossible, the ISK is not there." But he didn't know that. It is not in the rules, or really mentioned anywhere. Shame.


Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:37:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Hel O''Ween on 29/04/2011 10:40:15
Originally by: Aidan Patrick

My thought on the matter, is if you are being a legitimate trader, other than mass amounts of minerals - what reason would you have to place a minimum quantity on a buy order for something like guns?



Give us some kind of NPC shipping company and we're good to go. Otherwise setting minimum qty on items makes sure you don't need to fly to 60 different stations in 20 different systems to pick up one 75mm Gatling in each of it.

Oh, and while we're at it: make transporting ships (industrials, transporters, freighters and jump freighters) invulnerable to other players in high sec (except if at war). Because until the goods arrive at their destination(s), the traders/industrialists take the risk of the loss. And no one will compensate them.

As you might have guessed already: not supported.

[Edit]
Spelling ...

Sephiroth CloneVII
Posted - 2011.04.29 15:57:00 - [38]
 

Don't mess with a legit skill, the amount of stupid ideas in this thread is overwhelming.

If someone is dumb enough to get scammed on one thing, they are stupid to get scammed on any number of things. The problem is stupid players.

Failing all else if you want to make isk, never deal in anything weird. Basic commonitys are what people buy and sell a lot off. Minerals, pos fuels, and planet materials. Failing this, don't try to make isk from 'good deals' when you are too stupid to avoid scams, so something simpler like missioning, or mining and selling all refined materials at market hubs. NPC's don't scam, try making isk with them.


Chinwe Rhei
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force

Posted - 2011.04.29 16:31:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Chinwe Rhei on 29/04/2011 16:38:38
Support, remove it unless it's fixed.

My problem with margin trading is not the existence of the scam itself, but a lesser known borderline exploit that's associated with it that pretty much breaks the skill's functionality. So margin trading is supposed to allow you to reduce the amount of money you have stuck in escrow by a certain amount right ? Say you only put 56% in escrow for an order at level 2?

Well the issue is that for any level of the skill what you can do is sell to your own orders (on an alt) and so remove all your remaining money from the escrow so you're left with an order backed by nothing and with the money you took out you can make another order and so on forever (minus transaction fees).
You can force the game to lend you effectively unlimited credit.
I'm pretty sure that's not what the skill was supposed to do !

(If it's not clear, what i mean is suppose you create an order with 24% escrow, you sell that much worth of stuff to the order from your alt, now your alt has the escrow money and your main has the items. You give the items to the alt again and the money to the main, set up a new order, repeat as many times as you like...)

How is it connected to the scam ? Well obviously that allows scammers to create many more scam orders than they would if they were all actually backed by even 24%.
And it makes sure nobody can sell to the order even at a much lower price (that might fall within the escrow amount).

Sephiroth CloneVII
Posted - 2011.05.01 17:06:00 - [40]
 

"Buy Order for useless item #1."

Never buy useless items, or things you don't have a clear idea of what they are or use unless you can build something, fly or shoot with it don't buy it. The stupid is overwhelming.

People can also scam by manipulating market so that the value of a item appears higher, and they have a buy order that has a minimum of 100,000 for a really rare item. No limits to the possibility's exist on how to get scammed.

For someone making a lucid story about how successful they are, seems odd how you got anywhere in trading without margin trading, the skill you want gone. Did you get the isk to trade by plex selling?

You will get scammed if dumb by any number of means, as I said don't trade in useless items you will not use.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.05.04 09:04:00 - [41]
 

Let me go on record: I like margin trading. It's an important skill. It should stay. On the other hand, I'm getting really tired of these threads.

Suppose there were a right-click menu option that let you query the current purchasing capacity of a given buy order. That is to say, you could right click and see exactly how many of the buyer's 1000 unit buy order he could fill, given his current wallet balance.

Would this be an acceptable compromise?

Cheekyhoe
Posted - 2011.05.11 09:13:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Cheekyhoe on 11/05/2011 09:13:18
I fully understand that margin trading is a helpful tool in making you richer.

However the issues with it is that it's not helpful in the game as it stands.

If it effected game play I'd totally agree with you but as far as I can tell it does.

However I did think of a solution, some may not like this but I think it's a nice easy and good solution.

Market Orders made by Margin Trading Ability are subject to a negative isk penalty of the base order (i.e. if you had to put down 24million out of 100million it would be removed from your character).

Unless the order comes to a natural end by the time limit or there is enough isk for the sale to go through.

Legitimate buyers are more than likely to not enjoy this penalty however scammers would be at risk of loosing isk adverse to gaining isk if someone caused the buy order to fail.

Originally by: Aamrr
Let me go on record: I like margin trading. It's an important skill. It should stay. On the other hand, I'm getting really tired of these threads.

Suppose there were a right-click menu option that let you query the current purchasing capacity of a given buy order. That is to say, you could right click and see exactly how many of the buyer's 1000 unit buy order he could fill, given his current wallet balance.

Would this be an acceptable compromise?


I also like this idea very much, it'd be even better if it highlighted them in red .

*edit*
Or even just removed them from visibility on the market.

Nomad III
Posted - 2011.05.11 10:32:00 - [43]
 

This is no problem, because all of you have to be aware of scams and it's easy to avoid them.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.11 14:32:00 - [44]
 

Isn't there some fine that is charged to the toon if they cannot cover a buy order? Can we not have negative balances? I don't see the problem really, can't you avoid this problem altogether by testing out any fishy too good to be true buy orders by lifting a couple from the bid before you commit to obtaining the large quantities?

Cheekyhoe
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:49:00 - [45]
 

It'd be easier if there was no minimum quantity as most scammers put it at a number just below the amount they have.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:57:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Cheekyhoe
It'd be easier if there was no minimum quantity as most scammers put it at a number just below the amount they have.


And then when you're trying to buy components for somethign in bulk, you have to warp between 50 stations picking up 1 trit in each, as opposed to all in one.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.12 00:41:00 - [47]
 

Thanks Cheeky and Danika.

Seems like a tough problem to solve then, (as many in the thread before have mentioned)

But what exactly does the scammer gain? Besides causing wasted time in manufacturing for the mark? (I'm going to assume that the traders will be smart enough not to hit in the asks just to fill the suspiciously too-good-to-be-true order.)

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.12 02:17:00 - [48]
 

Fairly simple.

Some guy with Margin Trading IV/V and piles of ISK buys up all the "Garbage" on Jita sells, creates a buy order for 500k each, sets a minimum quantity orders of magnitude beyond what anyone would actually have, creates an item exchange contract for a ridiculous amount beyond the market value of the item, and empties the remainder of his wallet to an alt. They then spam the item in Jita local for hours until somebody gullible enough to fall for it buys it up after seeing the ridiculous buy order.

You walk out with 1 billion ISK minus whatever the useless items cost you on sell orders, the other poor fool walks out with, well, garbage.

I'm sorry, but if you're dumb enough to believe that someone is buying up useless items for a price that is way beyond what is shown on the market history, I hope the scammer puts your ISK to better use.

The skill is used for legitimate purposes moreso than not. While it's a bit sketchy to use what is a "trusted" game mechanic like the market to scam, it's allowed. Forcing characters into a negative balance would be akin to creating ISK out of thin air. Even if you couldn't biomass after going into a negative wallet balance, accounts can easily be disposed of. PLEX is amazingly cheap.

Mocam
Posted - 2011.05.12 02:50:00 - [49]
 

There are a couple alternative suggestions here that I think could use being put forth as "fixes" instead of pursuing a removal.

Being as CCP has been easing things for newer players, this removal might happen if an alternative isn't found. As such, perhaps the market folks might put up a working fix vs such a suggestion as this and see if it can be pushed through instead.

Seriously - "no! no! no!".. that didn't save a few things we've seen and this is exploiting a game mechanic. It might just get "fixed" in the easy way - removal - and some of you point out it is important to how you do business.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.12 12:10:00 - [50]
 

Thank you andski!

Okay I'm off then fence now. And very against this proposal. If people are dumb enough to fall for "too-good-to-be-true orders then they deserve to lose their isk.

I'm a trader and very against removing this legitimate skill

Cheekyhoe
Posted - 2011.05.12 20:36:00 - [51]
 

I'm honestly only against it as I like graphs and I dislike when people mess with my graphs. Twisted Evil

I do think the best solution would be a mark to show that an order cannot be fulfilled.

This way at least the scammer has some element of risk.

Also less jita local spamm is also a win.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.12 23:38:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 13/05/2011 18:38:51
Originally by: Cheekyhoe
I'm honestly only against it as I like graphs and I dislike when people mess with my graphs. Twisted Evil

I do think the best solution would be a mark to show that an order cannot be fulfilled.

This way at least the scammer has some element of risk.

Also less jita local spamm is also a win.


In principle, I agree with you. (the principle of making it harder to use as a scam), and I even like the idea of marking the order as non-fillable, but in practice I think that would be very technically difficult to implement. It would add a lot more lookups to check for fillability at each refresh of the market data, which would burden the system. Not to mention it would flucutuate with the wallet of a user.

Somewhere else somebody suggested having multiple wallets for users. That would be a start. Then we can have the margin account which must be filled with a buffer of isk. If that buffer goes below a certain level, you would need to fill it up else your (top) order will get auto-cancelled successively to replenish it up to min levels.

This should make it close it how it works in real life. But you still have the issue of not enough isk on fill of the order. If we are not going to allow - isk, amounts (because of other reasons that people stated) then along with the existing fine, why not make a standings penalty hit with the station corp? Make sense as you are losing 'credit' with the station market. You recall that the broker rates depend on the standing with the corp. Do it enough and it will penalize the scammer.

Doesn't help your graphs though, sorry :)

Adrian Idaho
Posted - 2011.05.13 09:50:00 - [53]
 

There's just so much idiocy and whining in this thread, it makes me cringe. It's so easy to avoid getting scammed in EVE if
  1. you can read

  2. you don't interact with the market while you're drunk/high/very tired

  3. you apply the basic amount of scepticism required to play EVE


As for some of the stupid "solutions" offered in this thread, this post pretty much sums it up:
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Ronan Connor
Its even more simple.

Force fulfill the order and let the buyer go into negative figures if necessary. No other orders can be set up, while the wallet isnt balanced out.
A legit trader want to have money on his account-wallet under every circumstance. Just have more liquid money to trade with, not to go into negative figures.



Sigh. Two main issues with what you suggest. First, if your balance is in the negative you can't liquidate anything to cover the bill. Market actions have a cost, so you would have to rely on alts, charity, selling GTCs or direct trading to gain money. Basicly you would **** up the game for people using margin trading in order to protect a few ******s from a clever scam where they even get to keep the item they are trying to sell.

Second, if you force negative values you allow the creation of money from nothing. People have alts and friends and you can buy a new account by a PLEX, so your idea is just a huge exploit waiting to happen that can seriously unbalance the entire EVE economy. Even if you don't allow biomassing of characters with negative wallet, that is still 3 characters that I can use to exploit this and if I manage to create anything above the price of a PLEX I can keep doing it indefinitely in ever increasing amounts.

The funniest part of your solution is, that knee-jerkers like you are willing to risk ruining the entire economy and the fluid working of the market as a solution to a minor issue in the trading system that doesn't propably even have a measurable effect on the market as a whole.

I'm actually supportive of a reasonable measure that would fix this side-effect of the skill, but your and OP's solutions are just god awfully bad ones. If I had to choose between them and keeping things as they are, I'd keep things as they are and throw both of your horrible ideas to the garbage.

Not supported.


However, there is a problem with Margin Trading (and an easy fix): if you have an order for 100 items up, and only have enough cash for 50 items, then if someone dumps more than 50 items on your order, those 50 items should actually be bought (and the order should be taken off the market after that). Reason: if you're a legitimate trader, you want to fill as much of your buy orders as possible.

Mocam
Posted - 2011.05.14 01:04:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Andski
Fairly simple.

Some guy with Margin Trading IV/V and piles of ISK buys up all the "Garbage" on Jita sells, creates a buy order for 500k each, sets a minimum quantity orders of magnitude beyond what anyone would actually have, creates an item exchange contract for a ridiculous amount beyond the market value of the item, and empties the remainder of his wallet to an alt. They then spam the item in Jita local for hours until somebody gullible enough to fall for it buys it up after seeing the ridiculous buy order.

You walk out with 1 billion ISK minus whatever the useless items cost you on sell orders, the other poor fool walks out with, well, garbage.

I'm sorry, but if you're dumb enough to believe that someone is buying up useless items for a price that is way beyond what is shown on the market history, I hope the scammer puts your ISK to better use.

The skill is used for legitimate purposes moreso than not. While it's a bit sketchy to use what is a "trusted" game mechanic like the market to scam, it's allowed. Forcing characters into a negative balance would be akin to creating ISK out of thin air. Even if you couldn't biomass after going into a negative wallet balance, accounts can easily be disposed of. PLEX is amazingly cheap.


Extreme examples, like yours, make it look obvious. I'll put out another example:

I buy up all the Dread Guristas Diamond tags on the market in Sinq Liason, Everyshore, etc... I then place a buy order, at 1.5 million each in Amarr while putting the contract up in Jita. The Amarr order isn't for "100" per, only 40 per order, 720 units on the order - a number that means they might be using them for LP BPC's type stuff or datacenter turn-ins, etc. but also a number few are going to have "on hand".

So our "stupid sap" trader, sees 626 for sale on a contract in Jita at 1 mill each and a buy order at 1.5 mill. A nice 300 mill profit for a "normal" hub-to-hub run.

All told, the scammer paid about 70 mill and walked away with 626 mill for a couple hours or so "gotcha!" work that would be extremely difficult for most traders to detect - you could pretty much buy out every last one of those tags, on ALL markets, like this to score a nice hit.

The "garbage" for billions scam is kind of obvious. But specialty items that suddenly come into demand, like a batch of criminal tags... Not so easy to spot and VERY easy to scam even a seasoned player who knows what to look for.

My little example can make a scammer some solid daily income -'casual' scam style, not "a billion an hour!!" but a fairly solid, steady income with a little research on the markets.

It's a game mechanics abuse issue. Not some "if you're smart enough, you can avoid it" issue.

Cheekyhoe
Posted - 2011.05.14 01:22:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Adrian Idaho

However, there is a problem with Margin Trading (and an easy fix): if you have an order for 100 items up, and only have enough cash for 50 items, then if someone dumps more than 50 items on your order, those 50 items should actually be bought (and the order should be taken off the market after that). Reason: if you're a legitimate trader, you want to fill as much of your buy orders as possible.


Yet another great idea.

I'm not for or against Scamming I just really dislike it when they make it harder to sort through the legitimate stuff.

Like all paying player most of us just want to get along with our business at let you play with your toys but the point where you make me spend an extra 20 minutes a day overlooking something to make sure it's not a scam not a new market opportunity is when I start getting annoyed.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.14 16:51:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Cheekyhoe
Originally by: Adrian Idaho

However, there is a problem with Margin Trading (and an easy fix): if you have an order for 100 items up, and only have enough cash for 50 items, then if someone dumps more than 50 items on your order, those 50 items should actually be bought (and the order should be taken off the market after that). Reason: if you're a legitimate trader, you want to fill as much of your buy orders as possible.


Yet another great idea.

I'm not for or against Scamming I just really dislike it when they make it harder to sort through the legitimate stuff.

Like all paying player most of us just want to get along with our business at let you play with your toys but the point where you make me spend an extra 20 minutes a day overlooking something to make sure it's not a scam not a new market opportunity is when I start getting annoyed.


It's a good idea, but it doesn't get around the problem, the scammer can easily just leave little or no money in the account, that way he can't even afford any units of the item.

What about this -- along with the existing fine when you are hit with insufficient funds, you get a mark on your record. Each 'mark' on your margin record reduces your effective margin trading skill by a penalty, say 5%. Marks on the record can be erased by time, (for instance 1 day without any further margin incidents will erase one 5% penalty.)

This should make successive violations of margin trading non-economical, and still be fair to the legitimate users of the skill.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.05.14 21:09:00 - [57]
 

Supporting becuase it is not how margin trading works in RL , and it sucks.

Cheekyhoe
Posted - 2011.05.17 05:12:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Cheekyhoe
Originally by: Adrian Idaho

However, there is a problem with Margin Trading (and an easy fix): if you have an order for 100 items up, and only have enough cash for 50 items, then if someone dumps more than 50 items on your order, those 50 items should actually be bought (and the order should be taken off the market after that). Reason: if you're a legitimate trader, you want to fill as much of your buy orders as possible.


Yet another great idea.

I'm not for or against Scamming I just really dislike it when they make it harder to sort through the legitimate stuff.

Like all paying player most of us just want to get along with our business at let you play with your toys but the point where you make me spend an extra 20 minutes a day overlooking something to make sure it's not a scam not a new market opportunity is when I start getting annoyed.


It's a good idea, but it doesn't get around the problem, the scammer can easily just leave little or no money in the account, that way he can't even afford any units of the item.

What about this -- along with the existing fine when you are hit with insufficient funds, you get a mark on your record. Each 'mark' on your margin record reduces your effective margin trading skill by a penalty, say 5%. Marks on the record can be erased by time, (for instance 1 day without any further margin incidents will erase one 5% penalty.)

This should make successive violations of margin trading non-economical, and still be fair to the legitimate users of the skill.


Problem is this wouldn't stop scammers as many that I've seen use the 14 day free trial for this scam as API checks may link you to the account also you only need the skill at level 1 to work.

I still think the best way to work is that if the order cannot be fulfilled then it should be hidden from the market.

Or to remove all the extra hassle just remove the skill not advised or wanted but the best solution is normally the simplest.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions

Posted - 2011.05.17 05:50:00 - [59]
 

Considering it is impossible to know if the buy orders are real or a scam, I am for this skill to be looked into, not the complete removal, but how it works in relation to the person putting up the buy order and their wallet balance.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.18 23:27:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Cheekyhoe
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Cheekyhoe
Originally by: Adrian Idaho

However, there is a problem with Margin Trading (and an easy fix): if you have an order for 100 items up, and only have enough cash for 50 items, then if someone dumps more than 50 items on your order, those 50 items should actually be bought (and the order should be taken off the market after that). Reason: if you're a legitimate trader, you want to fill as much of your buy orders as possible.


Yet another great idea.

I'm not for or against Scamming I just really dislike it when they make it harder to sort through the legitimate stuff.

Like all paying player most of us just want to get along with our business at let you play with your toys but the point where you make me spend an extra 20 minutes a day overlooking something to make sure it's not a scam not a new market opportunity is when I start getting annoyed.


It's a good idea, but it doesn't get around the problem, the scammer can easily just leave little or no money in the account, that way he can't even afford any units of the item.

What about this -- along with the existing fine when you are hit with insufficient funds, you get a mark on your record. Each 'mark' on your margin record reduces your effective margin trading skill by a penalty, say 5%. Marks on the record can be erased by time, (for instance 1 day without any further margin incidents will erase one 5% penalty.)

This should make successive violations of margin trading non-economical, and still be fair to the legitimate users of the skill.


Problem is this wouldn't stop scammers as many that I've seen use the 14 day free trial for this scam as API checks may link you to the account also you only need the skill at level 1 to work.

I still think the best way to work is that if the order cannot be fulfilled then it should be hidden from the market.

Or to remove all the extra hassle just remove the skill not advised or wanted but the best solution is normally the simplest.


Why not just make the skill not trainable by trial accounts, problem solved? Surely that is the easiest solution :)

I'm not entirely against your 'hide the order idea' in theory, but in practice I suspect it would put too much load on the server. Think about the race conditions that may occur, and database deadlock problem of checking EACH order on everyone's market screen to see if the other side has enough isk.

Much simpler to just put a demerit marker on people who "commit overdraft" and penalize their margin skill for successive overdrafts, as this is data stored on the character skill db itself and the check is done at the time of posting an order, just once.


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