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blankseplocked [ISSUE] Remove Margin Trading
 
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Cheekyhoe
Posted - 2011.03.25 19:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cheekyhoe on 15/05/2011 22:38:46
Quote:
Margin Trading Ability to make potentially risky investments work in your favor. Each level of skill reduces the percentage of ISK placed in market escrow when entering buy orders. Starting with an escrow percentage of 100% at Level 0 (untrained skill), each skill level cumulatively reduces the percentage by 25%. For a maximum reduction of approximately 24% total escrow at level 5.


This skill I think is one of those problem skills that can't be fixed without removing it.

The idea of the skill is that you can buy things without having the full amount of isk right away.

However this leaves a problem what happens if you dont have the isk when the item is being sold to you?

Well you cant get a negative balance as this would be exploited to hell and back.

So the other thing is to remove the buy order which seems simple enough.

However far to many people do not use it as intended and use it for very very pointless scams that might work sometimes but all they do is mess with the market as they combine this with the minimum buy amount and try to scam people.

I know this could be fixed by removing the buy amount, however some people use it for legitimate reasons.

So I believe the skill should be removed as it's just pointless, you need the total amount of isk to buy X item then you should have it up front.

So I say remove this useless skill.

----------------------------------------------------

Posted ideas:




Show how many items buy can afford out of his requested amount.

Originally by: Aamrr


Suppose there were a right-click menu option that let you query the current purchasing capacity of a given buy order. That is to say, you could right click and see exactly how many of the buyer's 1000 unit buy order he could fill, given his current wallet balance.

Would this be an acceptable compromise?


Fine the margin skill itself for each force cancelled ordered.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren


What about this -- along with the existing fine when you are hit with insufficient funds, you get a mark on your record. Each 'mark' on your margin record reduces your effective margin trading skill by a penalty, say 5%. Marks on the record can be erased by time, (for instance 1 day without any further margin incidents will erase one 5% penalty.)

This should make successive violations of margin trading non-economical, and still be fair to the legitimate users of the skill.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.25 19:34:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/03/2011 19:35:00
No.

Ed: I'll be diplomatic.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.03.25 20:14:00 - [3]
 

Supported. Don't have the cash? Don't trade. Bringing in consequences of irl into Eve (jail) would be unrealistic, therefore bringing marginal trading into Eve is unrealistic. Get rid of it.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.03.25 21:07:00 - [4]
 

There is actually a pretty simple way to 'fix' it:

Buy orders are only shown when the buyers wallet is able to make the trade for the asked minimum amount.

Cheekyhoe
Posted - 2011.03.26 08:44:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
There is actually a pretty simple way to 'fix' it:

Buy orders are only shown when the buyers wallet is able to make the trade for the asked minimum amount.


This i like actually but still it needs a fixVery Happy

M Blanc
Posted - 2011.03.26 10:43:00 - [6]
 

This is silly and would destroy an important skill for 'legitimate'* traders. If you want to nerf the margin trading scam, change the way escrow is handled such that even if the order is half-filled, it remains backed by escrow to 23% of its value, at which point the 'problem' will become self-policing.


*not that scamming is illegitimate, but you know what I mean

Ronan Connor
Posted - 2011.03.26 11:07:00 - [7]
 

Its even more simple.

Force fulfill the order and let the buyer go into negative figures if necessary. No other orders can be set up, while the wallet isnt balanced out.
A legit trader want to have money on his account-wallet under every circumstance. Just have more liquid money to trade with, not to go into negative figures.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.03.26 12:12:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ronan Connor
Its even more simple.

Force fulfill the order and let the buyer go into negative figures if necessary. No other orders can be set up, while the wallet isnt balanced out.
A legit trader want to have money on his account-wallet under every circumstance. Just have more liquid money to trade with, not to go into negative figures.



Sigh. Two main issues with what you suggest. First, if your balance is in the negative you can't liquidate anything to cover the bill. Market actions have a cost, so you would have to rely on alts, charity, selling GTCs or direct trading to gain money. Basicly you would **** up the game for people using margin trading in order to protect a few ******s from a clever scam where they even get to keep the item they are trying to sell.

Second, if you force negative values you allow the creation of money from nothing. People have alts and friends and you can buy a new account by a PLEX, so your idea is just a huge exploit waiting to happen that can seriously unbalance the entire EVE economy. Even if you don't allow biomassing of characters with negative wallet, that is still 3 characters that I can use to exploit this and if I manage to create anything above the price of a PLEX I can keep doing it indefinitely in ever increasing amounts.

The funniest part of your solution is, that knee-jerkers like you are willing to risk ruining the entire economy and the fluid working of the market as a solution to a minor issue in the trading system that doesn't propably even have a measurable effect on the market as a whole.

I'm actually supportive of a reasonable measure that would fix this side-effect of the skill, but your and OP's solutions are just god awfully bad ones. If I had to choose between them and keeping things as they are, I'd keep things as they are and throw both of your horrible ideas to the garbage.

Not supported.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.26 13:53:00 - [9]
 

Not supported. The skill is fine, you just need to play smarter.

Ronan Connor
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Ronan Connor
Its even more simple.

Force fulfill the order and let the buyer go into negative figures if necessary. No other orders can be set up, while the wallet isnt balanced out.
A legit trader want to have money on his account-wallet under every circumstance. Just have more liquid money to trade with, not to go into negative figures.



Sigh. Two main issues with what you suggest. First, if your balance is in the negative you can't liquidate anything to cover the bill. Market actions have a cost, so you would have to rely on alts, charity, selling GTCs or direct trading to gain money. Basicly you would **** up the game for people using margin trading in order to protect a few ******s from a clever scam where they even get to keep the item they are trying to sell.
Funny how people who use stuff like - Sigh. - and "re-tards" behave in a manner which brings the same keywords or pictures to my mind about them. Thats the whole intention next to the intention not to screw the market prices with values which arent reflect real market prices.

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Second, if you force negative values you allow the creation of money from nothing. People have alts and friends and you can buy a new account by a PLEX, so your idea is just a huge exploit waiting to happen that can seriously unbalance the entire EVE economy. Even if you don't allow biomassing of characters with negative wallet, that is still 3 characters that I can use to exploit this and if I manage to create anything above the price of a PLEX I can keep doing it indefinitely in ever increasing amounts.
Nope you cant. Biomassing would be doable only with a wallet of at least 0 isk.

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
The funniest part of your solution is, that knee-jerkers like you are willing to risk ruining the entire economy and the fluid working of the market as a solution to a minor issue in the trading system that doesn't propably even have a measurable effect on the market as a whole.
Gosh, how old are you? 14? You are definately not mature if you use vocabulary like this. Have you been beaten alot on school breaks? Looks like it. I am really feeling sorry for you. At least you are admit that it is an issue.


Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
I'm actually supportive of a reasonable measure that would fix this side-effect of the skill, but your and OP's solutions are just god awfully bad ones. If I had to choose between them and keeping things as they are, I'd keep things as they are and throw both of your horrible ideas to the garbage.

Not supported.

Go on - proof me and the readers wrong. Show us you are capeable of something constructive instead of behaving like a WoW player.
Show us your solution, to the issue that the skill is for scamming. If you dont have one, I'd suggest you go somewhere deep null instead of ughing that you would loose your scamming abilities.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.03.26 22:09:00 - [11]
 

Highly NOT supported. I use long running buy orders a lot, and I don't like to have the isk all tied up, and with the skill I can work with the capital before it is actually required.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.03.27 01:53:00 - [12]
 

Supported.... no NPC banks, no NPC credit... either have the cold hard cash available, or you don't get your buy orders up.

Mongo Travler
Posted - 2011.03.27 02:41:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mongo Travler on 27/03/2011 02:41:43
Not supported.

This skill is incredibly useful for the legitimate trader. For example I may put up a buy order for 100 Ruptures and I know it won't fill in a single transaction or in most cases a single day. This skill allows me to keep moving assets around EVE instead of tying up all ~500 mil while I wait for an order to be filled.

Protip: in the buyers section there is a "MIN VOLUME" column for a reason if it looks too good to be true its cause it is.

Bayushi Akemi
Posted - 2011.03.27 15:24:00 - [14]
 

Don't remove the skill, remove the buy orders that don't have enough isk to back them, or allow people to sell to different buy orders than the top one

Seamus Donohue
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.27 16:42:00 - [15]
 

Supported.

Mongo Travler
Posted - 2011.03.27 21:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Bayushi Akemi
Don't remove the skill, remove the buy orders that don't have enough isk to back them, or allow people to sell to different buy orders than the top one


If you remove the buy orders that don't have the money to back them that is a more roundabout way to just remove margin trading. A FYI thing, if you try to fill an order that doesn't have the isk to back it the order disappears and no money/goods are traded. I.e. you may get stuck holding some worthless T2 rigs or whatever but if you bought them specifically to fullfill an outragious buy order thats your fault.

Honestly it is super easy to spot this scam and not fall victim to it. Like in real life if it looks too good to be true it probably is.

However, I would support a proposal similar to if your margin trades get nullified more than x times a month you get your margin trading priviladges revoked for the following amount of time or you have to pay an increased market tax/penalty to make new margin orders temporarily.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:44:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ronan Connor

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Second, if you force negative values you allow the creation of money from nothing. People have alts and friends and you can buy a new account by a PLEX, so your idea is just a huge exploit waiting to happen that can seriously unbalance the entire EVE economy. Even if you don't allow biomassing of characters with negative wallet, that is still 3 characters that I can use to exploit this and if I manage to create anything above the price of a PLEX I can keep doing it indefinitely in ever increasing amounts.
Nope you cant. Biomassing would be doable only with a wallet of at least 0 isk.


get negative on 3 chars, make new account, rinse and repeat.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.04.03 04:33:00 - [18]
 

I think margin trading can be fixed. Simply do not allow characters with a negative balance to make purchases or create buy orders, and also don't allow those characters to be biomassed. If someone wants to get rid of a toon with a negative balance and start over, they have to make a new account and pay the $5 activation fee. This is in addition to having to train the market skills again in order to be able to make a lot of buy orders and train the margin trading skill. If it is still getting abused at that point, and I mean above and beyond being a minor issue, then simply raise the skill requirements needed to train the skill.

Those who currently have the skill can keep it, since that won't affect players who make new accounts and re-train new trade toons. But you can't continue training the margin trading skill until you finish its prerequisites, because people could have inactive toons with the skill just started, waiting to be activated.

Most of this stuff is probably either already implemented or just standard procedure for this sort of thing anyway. But there it is, I said it; the way to fix margin trading. It might not be exactly like that, or maybe it's a bit more complicated. But I think that's the gist of it.

Eldaec
Posted - 2011.04.03 11:57:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ronan Connor
Its even more simple.

Force fulfill the order and let the buyer go into negative figures if necessary. No other orders can be set up, while the wallet isnt balanced out.
A legit trader want to have money on his account-wallet under every circumstance. Just have more liquid money to trade with, not to go into negative figures.



This would be awesome. With two disposable characters and a modicum of common sense everyone could use the obvious exploit to create an arbitary large sum of isk.

~Get coding CSMs!~

crimson fire
Posted - 2011.04.03 23:38:00 - [20]
 

LOL

The game does not allow you this exploit. Go try it if u dont believe me.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.04 00:50:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Shandir on 04/04/2011 00:51:02
Implement a debt mechanic to cover the shortfall.
When in debt, you get an additional 1% tax on all taxable income - this goes to the debtor.
This lasts until you choose to pay off the debt.
You cannot delete or transfer your character with a debt.

Either that or hide unfulfilable orders, as suggested above.

However:
The scam used is a perfectly valid (and pretty clever) scam, all things considered, as the part that's a scam is the part where you buy something for a vastly inflated price - do your research and don't assume that the current one or two orders are valid. It's not difficult to spot and avoid if you understand the mechanics of trading. It can even be done without margin trading, it's just harder and riskier.

Edit: To be clear, I don't support the proposal - the skill is useful. Nerf it, perhaps, but do not remove it.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.04.04 03:47:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Goose99
Supported. Don't have the cash? Don't trade.


Tell that to Wall St.......

Bo Tosh
Posted - 2011.04.04 08:21:00 - [23]
 

Not supported.

If you get burned its your problem I'm afraid, that scam has been posted for months if not years and if you didn't know about it its just your bad luck. There are far more legitimate users of this skill than scammers.

EDISON CLONE
Minmatar
Romal Mining Ventures Ltd.
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:48:00 - [24]
 

Neutral..I don't care what they do...as long as...
1) I get my skill points back to redistribute
2) we all play by the same rules and changes are announced in advance
3) the number of scammers goes down or change it back

Vieror Telon
Posted - 2011.04.24 23:50:00 - [25]
 

I think a minor tweak will fix this issue easily ... you cannot place a minimum buy amount if you are margin trading. The fact that you can is what is enabling ppl to use this as an exploit. Or if ppl want to specify a minimum amount its cool but then you have ur iskies tied up.

Dont want your isk tied up as a legimate trader thats cool ... but y would you care for a minimum amount ?

What do you guys think ?

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.25 07:34:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Cheekyhoe

However far to many people do not use it as intended and use it for very very pointless scams that might work sometimes but all they do is mess with the market as they combine this with the minimum buy amount and try to scam people.


That's because you can see only those who use this skill to scam. You can't even notice those who use it for legitimate purposes.

Originally by: Cheekyhoe

So I believe the skill should be removed as it's just pointless, you need the total amount of isk to buy X item then you should have it up front.

So I say remove this useless skill.



Purely Amarr trained player would say that ECM skills are useless and should be removed because they can be used by other players against him if he's not careful enough.
Sub capital pilot would say that Fighter Bombers skill is useless and should be removed because it can be used by other players against him if he's not careful enough.
Non-trader would say that Margin Trading skill is useless and should be removed because it can be used by other players against him if he's not careful enough.

I see a pattern here.

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.04.25 10:39:00 - [27]
 

No. Scamming is part of EVE. Margin Trading is perfect for it.

Also, it is a highly useful skill for traders. What you are saying is the equivalent of removing Battleships from game cuz they are used to gank ppl....


Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
Tauri Federation
Posted - 2011.04.25 12:53:00 - [28]
 

I actually ran into this scam about a week ago when selling some old stockpiled Mega Pulses in Jita. As per the usual I viewed the market details and spotted an outragously awesome buy order. Buying higher than all the sell orders. As you can imagine I was stoked, some instant awesome cash. Started yapping about it to some corpies as I went to sell my pulse lasers and WHAM, "You do not have the minimum quantity". It required something absurd in the several hundreds, I only had about ~30 (I didn't die as often as I thought I would when I stockpiled :D). I took a closer look and thats when I learned that you can actually set a minimum amount on buy orders.

Now I agree, the scam is very clever! I am also a fan of scamming being a part of EVE and I don't think it should be flattened at every turn. With that said however, I do think scamming should have it's own risk, just like everything else in EVE.

As such here is this quote...

Originally by: Vieror Telon
I think a minor tweak will fix this issue easily ... you cannot place a minimum buy amount if you are margin trading. The fact that you can is what is enabling ppl to use this as an exploit. Or if ppl want to specify a minimum amount its cool but then you have ur iskies tied up.

Dont want your isk tied up as a legimate trader thats cool ... but y would you care for a minimum amount ?

What do you guys think ?


Now with that quoted, I would like to see buy orders with a minimum amount disallow margin trading. Will this stop the scam? No. But it will make it a hell of a lot riskier to the scammer. Risk V Reward.

In the scenario of the scam that I found the order was for something sick in the several hundreds. Infact the order was right around the amount of all the Mega Pulse turrets in Jita combined valued somewhere in the several billions. Several hundred of these turrets (likely placed on the market by the scammer in question) were set well over-priced, but still cheaper than this incredible buy order.

Let's say I had bought them all up to sell them to this buy order: Bam, rejected. I'm stuck with a stock of Mega Pulses that I can't use, and selling them at their actual prices will put me at a loss. This is market PVP. This is win.

However, if said scammer puts that order up with the proposed change, and I buy his turrets for the same thing, he just cancels the buy order, leaving me stuck with the product yet again.

Now lets say the scammer puts up the sell and buy orders... and goes AFK or logs off... Now here is where the risk comes in. I buy them up.. he's not around to see that I did and then BAM... I sell to a fully backed buy order from a scammer, reversing the scam on him.

With the anonymity of the market you cant track who that buy order belongs to until you successfully interact with it, making it a high risk scam reversal, with potentially ground breaking rewards.

Does this fix the problem? Maybe not... but what it does do is bring risk to the scam, hell that change might even make people more inclined to bite the scam. Is that a bad thing? Depends on your point of view. But buyer education and common sense should always rule the day.


TL;DR - Add Risk To Scamming

Mister Rocknrolla
Posted - 2011.04.25 14:17:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Aidan Patrick


Does this fix the problem? Maybe not... but what it does do is bring risk to the scam, hell that change might even make people more inclined to bite the scam. Is that a bad thing? Depends on your point of view. But buyer education and common sense should always rule the day.


TL;DR - Add Risk To Scamming


The problem is the negative impact this has on people using the Margin Trading skill for less nefarious purposes.

THAT's the balance that the smart guys in Iceland are supposed to be paid to solve. Destroying the usefulness of the skill almost entirely in order to prevent a couple of scams (which, let's be honest...only take advantage of greedy people) is not a proper solution.

It seems in this thread that the people who are opposed to margin trading are people who don't use and/or don't understand margin trading.

/unsupported

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.25 14:22:00 - [30]
 

It's rather ironic, I lost something like 4 billion ISK to the Margin Trading scam just within the past week or two. Quite honestly, I never realized that players couldn't go into negative ISK, partially due to the fact that players require a positive balance to be sold in the Character Bazaar.

Margin Trading scam works very well, and is completely capable of catching a person as many as 3 times, before they figure it out. I myself, fell for it withing my first 6 months of playing, and having never gotten into Margin Trading, again something more than 2 years later. You think you can beat them to the sale on those buy orders they have up, but that's quite impossible as they do not really exist. Knowing it's a scam really doesn't help, unless you also know you can't win. That's 3.8 Billion ISK, gone.

Anyway, yeah it needs fixed. Even making them liable doesn't help, as all they need is a couple weeks to train the skills on an alt, for it to be worth better than a billion ISK in one successful scam. Transfer to alt, biomass, rinse, repeat.


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