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Duke Hamilton1
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.01 11:18:00 - [2131]
 

Ok the nuts and bolts of isk per hour with a tengu ratting against Dread Guristas is a max income of 60-65 mill p/h, that's with Faction fit Ballistic controls max missle skills and HAM'S and pith x type ballistic hardner's with a ECCM fitted and a target painter and a pithium A medium shield booster with a pith x type shield boost amplifier( tengus get a insane amount of extra damage with kinetic bonuses 1560 per volley with 6 missle launchers and a rate of fire for heavies of 3.2).
Most I have ever seen some one earn is with a carrier and Macherial dual which earns 100-120 mill p/h.
So with that settled watch the markets drop like a ton of **** when the patch is released.

Dimitri Fukoyama
Posted - 2011.04.01 11:22:00 - [2132]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:


As per the above, EvE is known because kills sting. If they didn't we'd have "FFA PvP" which works for 6 months then the game tanks.

In other MMOs I played, surviving was so pointless that we moved our bands by mass suiciding to respawn closer to the action.
Ofc this immediately kills players retention, because whatever you do, there's no difference. No difference leads to no taste. No taste leads to waiting for next MMO to jump off.



Right, i understand that as well. I was kind of thinking aloud. I agree its cool you risk something when you go out and pvp, but i dont play MMOs to get bored. And having to grind so many anoms to afford pvp is boring. When MMOs are boring to me, i stop playing.

Im not sure what can be done to make this catch 22 break.

Rene Winter
Militant Mermen
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2011.04.01 11:30:00 - [2133]
 

Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 01/04/2011 09:51:48
Originally by: Ortenz Brick
Originally by: Jaggins
Bad move.

Leave the crappy systems how they are, and buff rewards in the low truesec systems. That way you support alliances living in poor space while giving a reason for conflict.

Most of us hate ratting, we just do it to buy ships for PVP. Please don't make that harder.


This is why im not playing as much as i want to. Ideally id play mostly pvp, and a little pve. But how eve is set up, i have to grind pve for so long to pvp. Which would be sort of ok if pve wasnít such a repetitive bore. So i resigned myself to just playing a couple days a month and im asking myself if its worth to keep subbing when i have to work so hard to be able to do the thing i enjoy doing (pvp).

I have alot less experience in eve than probably most people here, so that will be my comment for this.


But imho isnít that exactly what makes eve pvp so good ? the fact that there is so much at risk. Thatís at least what made eve pvp stand out for me, the fact that when i risk my ship Iím risking hours worth of time and investment. Thatís what gets my blood pumping at least :P
If I could replace all pvp losses within 20mins worth of bearing i don't think pvp would have the same pull factor for me.

Also on the subject of moon-goo. Couldn't you argue then that by nerfing individuals incomes alliances that want to keep a large well stocked member base will need to shed the moon-goo profits down the ranks.
Why should an alliance be able to hoard all that iskies without having to trickle it down to support its lower members.
The alliance that my main is in atm make very little from moon-goo, but what we do make goes towards reimbursing logistics and HIC losses on ctas. It works beautifully :)

(I no that is not he point of these changes at all but I think its an interesting concept.)

edited - grammar



Don't think about it as Moon Goo income flowing down to members. Think the opposite for small alliances . . . To finance the projects like Capital Construction and Ship Replacement programs smaller alliances need income to "trickle up".

Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.04.01 11:48:00 - [2134]
 

Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 01/04/2011 11:58:50
Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 01/04/2011 11:50:36
Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
45m an hour per toon is actually quite a realistic figure i think for your average alliance grunt. I used to farm sanctums up in catch dual boxing a t2 fitted with max skills ishtar and geddon.

Both toons combined i used to make 100m/hr. My biggest isk bounty cycle i believe was 18.5m on each toon so 37m per 20mins which = 111m/hr but that was only if i was really focused on what i was doing.

I spent ages trying different ships/fittings but short of high isk pimping / using carrier + faction bs i could not get my IPH up any higher.

edited - messed up the quote :(



That 18.5 you got was including an expensive faction rat you got.

I have lived in Catch and you're lying.


Nope not lying - its just the result of stupid amounts of eft whoring, practicing and refining of target selection.

The 18.5 does not include any faction rats but as I said it is my record highest. On average i think i was pulling about 16.6m cycles per toon.

The setup i was using (and please feel free to try it) was :-
ishtar
1600 plate + 4 active resits
2 omnidirectionals + 3 tracking links (links go on the geddon with range script)
3 beam lasors + probe launcher
sentry rigs
curators and t2 amarr heavys.

geddon
3 heat sinks, large armor rep, dc, 1 hardener and a pdu or rcu (cnt remember)
3 cap rechargers
7 mega pulses with 1 large rr.
3 cc rigs
curator drones.

Standard tactics was to warp the ishtar in at 0 pull full agro and then warp in the geddon and use the RR to keep it alive.
Ishtar resists + RR = 800-900 dps tank. At the beginning use ishtar manually to pop all frigs whilst using geddon to pop the bs's. Once all frigs are dead just assist the ishtar curators to the geddon.
Total dps output was something like 400 for the ishtar +1000 from the geddon.
Also pro tip when fighting at 0 in a sanctum pull all drones when a new spawn happens, wait for agro then drop them again otherwise you end up wasting **** loads of time pulling and re-dropping drones when they start shooting them.

And that how you use sub-capital/non-faction/non-pimped ships to earn yourself 100m an hour in sanctums :D

(Also want to add that 2 toons i was using had all 5s in relevant gun and drone skills. My next idea to try and improve the setup was to drop a tracking link for a remote sensor booster to speed up the geddon lock time but I had to leave catch before i could try it :( )

edited - spelling
edited - grammar and footnote.

Tania Russ
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:01:00 - [2135]
 

Originally by: Dimitri Fukoyama
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:


As per the above, EvE is known because kills sting. If they didn't we'd have "FFA PvP" which works for 6 months then the game tanks.

In other MMOs I played, surviving was so pointless that we moved our bands by mass suiciding to respawn closer to the action.
Ofc this immediately kills players retention, because whatever you do, there's no difference. No difference leads to no taste. No taste leads to waiting for next MMO to jump off.



Right, i understand that as well. I was kind of thinking aloud. I agree its cool you risk something when you go out and pvp, but i dont play MMOs to get bored. And having to grind so many anoms to afford pvp is boring. When MMOs are boring to me, i stop playing.

Im not sure what can be done to make this catch 22 break.


Both of these opinions are equally valid, and I can see the different perspectives clearly here. I don't want EVE to become so easy that it is meaningless either, but on the other hand, I really don't think that it has become so easy.

Some of you seem to practically live online in EVE, but I have a job, a wife, and other interests. If I log on and join a CTA with my alliance for three hours, that is really the most time I can afford to spend playing EVE online in a day. Even that is actually really pushing it. Generally, I log on while at work, chat a bit, and then do my PI for the day and log off. Now I am a member of a large 0.0 alliance. We have stuff going on all the time. To contribute I need to devote the majority of my available time for EVE to doing alliance activities like CTAs. To make isk, I can't grind mining or plexes for hours on end - it's not realistic. THat is why I really appreciated Sanctums and Havens - if I only had an hour to play, I had a reasonably profitable thing I could do, run 1 Sanctum or Haven or two possibly, make say 35 mill isk, (ishtar, shield tank, not the highest DPS out there obviously.) And I could do that in my low end space where we live, which pre-Dominion would have been considered utterly worthless, 1 belt, no ice, nothing else of interest. Yet we have worked hard and made that terrible little system a great place, with the upgrades offered (we believed in good faith) by CCP with the Dominion expansion.

THe casual end game player should have a niche as well. I have played EVE and paid my subscriptions faithfully since 2006. WHere is the love, CCP?

Skaarl
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:02:00 - [2136]
 

and none of the above 10 posts or so about "hard pvp" or any of the other **** in any way have anything to do with ccp *******s reasons for the change.

Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:13:00 - [2137]
 

Originally by: Skaarl
and none of the above 10 posts or so about "hard pvp" or any of the other **** in any way have anything to do with ccp *******s reasons for the change.



Yer that is because I think most people are in agreement that ccps reasoning for this change is total garbage.

A better question is whenever this change will add value to null sec endgame content or not.

Personally i think the changes make null sec a tad more dynamic and would add value but again i do accept that ccps reasoning for this change is just a joke.

Ignatius Gnarl
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:17:00 - [2138]
 

Originally by: JTK Fotheringham
Originally by: Dharh
Maybe just adding moon goo depletion and/or balancing it with sov upgrades. Moon goo scaling might not make sense with null sec quality, but it is a bit too profitable.


I think you're missing my point. Present moon mining is high profit without corespondingly high risk. I'd like to see the risk ramped up, with some sort of threat of tower disruption, through covert action, and Dust514 suicide teams massacaring the tower crew, off-lining it for 6 hours, and unanchoring all the modules. That would be a risk to attach to moon goo towers.



Logistics for keeping POSs running are a pain. Other than the top tier moons the money you make is definitely in proportion to the hassle let alone any risk premium.
For the top tier moons they are very profitable because in order to take and hold them you need a huge support base of many players in fancy capital ships across several time zones.

The 'risk' attached to tech moons is the risk attached to being a serious nullsec player, and you can see the cost in the multiple Titan kills these guys sustain.

However I agree that distribution of moon goo is shockingly bad game design. I seem to remember this was another case where the player base expressed concern but CCP knew best?

Gradually changing moon goo comes up again and again as a simple game mechanic that would make for a much better game.

Ignatius Gnarl
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:34:00 - [2139]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Dharh

This change can only be good. Anyone who thinks that low quality null sec should be equally as profitable as high quality null sec is crazy.


Most people dont argue that. The problems are lvl4.


No one is objecting to
good null sec > bad null sec

the issue is:

good null sec > hi-sec > low-sec (agents) > bad null sec

If they only sort out that formula so it makes sense, I don't think anyone would mind making less money, because everyone would make less. What matters is relative wealth compared to other players.

The proposed anom nerf means that:
* Player who carebears in hi-sec and runs to nullsec for lulz can bring fancy ships
* Player who tries to live in null-sec and make an empire can bring crappy ships

Result: the nullsec residents lose, the natural choice is carebearing in hi-sec followed by a trip to the PvP 'arena' for lulz. Goodbye to a huge amount of the politicking and empire building that make the game interesting. This will be restricted to the old money in good true sec, shutting out the pioneer empires in bad true sec.

Kara'ina
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:49:00 - [2140]
 

Bad change, I would not be surprised if this wasn't a change as suggested by CCP Eyjo who is scared about inflation and the sanctum isk printing machines we currently have in place.

As stated earlier this change mostly hurts individual player income and hardly affects any bigger alliance out there with access to 0.0 moon goo. People will just go belt ratting or go back running missions in empire, Alliances will still get tax from that. It will not be major economic incentive for conflict.

It will still be equally hard for smaller alliances to get themselves a place in 0.0 as they can't viably attack the current power blocks. Taking a bit of unwanted space has no real benefit for them either after these changes so why even bother. This will put an even bigger damper on any conflict then other suggested changes.

CCP should change the moon resources and true sec so it regularly and dynamically changes all over Eve. You'd think moons run out of resources and new ones are found just as npc pirates will figure out they are actively being chased and shot at by bloodthirsty carebears. After that change even smaller alliances might get lucky and earn themselves some moon income and in border zones it might just be interesting to claim a few of your neighbor's moons.

Just as in the real world Eve sov conflict needs to be driven by dynamic changes in the environment and the economic situation. This change still leads to a stagnant environment and fixed (moon) positions to get your income and so will not result in more conflict.

Skaarl
Posted - 2011.04.01 12:54:00 - [2141]
 

Edited by: Skaarl on 01/04/2011 12:58:17
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
Originally by: Skaarl
and none of the above 10 posts or so about "hard pvp" or any of the other **** in any way have anything to do with ccp *******s reasons for the change.



Yer that is because I think most people are in agreement that ccps reasoning for this change is total garbage.

A better question is whenever this change will add value to null sec endgame content or not.

Personally i think the changes make null sec a tad more dynamic and would add value but again i do accept that ccps reasoning for this change is just a joke.




the question i will pose to you is: was nullsec more dynamic and more valuable prior to dominion? these changes will very much revert the effected nullsec back to dominion status.

and like you said, if they are going to screw me, and they obviously will considering my alliance lives in one of the most populated regions of null that will be hugely slammed by this, i would at least like to hear the real reason they are doing this. CCP Greyscale is obviously lying out his arse when he makes the claims about small alliances which can now garner little to no income building up to take out larger alliances.... blah blah blah. re-read the blog. i mean come on, at least be kinda honest with what your intentions are here greyscale. oh wait thats right, CCP has no problems lying to their customers. they keep trying to say this thread is 50/50 pro and con....

ina nutshell... apparently greyscale is sick of people doing what they want in his sandbox, if we play in it we have to build the sandcastle that he wants us to or gtfo.


Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:01:00 - [2142]
 

Originally by: Skaarl
ina nutshell... apparently greyscale is sick of people doing what they want in his sandbox, if we play in it we have to build the sandcastle that he wants us to or gtfo.

When you're right, everyone else is a dirty liar.

Gabriel Grimoire
Amarr
Ascendent.
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:09:00 - [2143]
 

Originally by: Xel Ra
Originally by: Kovid
Null sec is a lucrative space people fight for. The true sec is not their by accident. Nor is the recent change to list the true sec in the UI finally.

The problem now is too many people have moved to null sec and never fought for it or intend to fight for it. They believe it is their right to do sanctums and make the amount they did. They are transfering their beliefs of high sec into zero zero. People say they will not fight for new space and cancel their accounts.

I would say it's unfortunate that so many people are quitting over something they don't understand but fine. Eve is supposed to a harsh place and the end game content as people like to call null sec is not supposed to be easy or handed to them on a platter. If theses people parading as carebears in null sec quit then the game in preserving its integrity.

CCP seems to be trying for a vision of null sec were the the powerful lord over the week. The imaginative strive to topple the goliaths. And life is a harsh and cruel mistress. I suppose a few cancel accounts will keep that integrity.

No we just need to make it able the weeker and smaller alliances to band together and have a chance at those bigger one with the juicer space. There are too many defender advantages with cyno jammers jumpbridges, faulty black ops. Give the offense and the little guy more chances and continue with the changes please. It's not to say some of these (paper) goliaths haven't toppled but a little more headway into others would be a change for the better.

After all CCP you want more conflict, let there be less defense or more offensive options on top of the economic changes you started.





You're so corny. Their "beliefs". It's not a religion, and you're not the high priest of pvp, you drama queen. What a cheeseball, "toppling goliaths" in your spaceship game.

You have no idea what other people think, whether they plan to fight with the isk they made or not, with your blanket statements of pure drivel. You come in here, posting since page 1, obsessed with the legitimacy of your own voice, convinced of your own self-righteousness by the inflated size of your aggrandized ego. You sure are impressed with yourself in the "harsh place" of the computer screen you're staring into. What a joke.

You're actually begging CCP in this post to make defense _less_ difficult and to give you more _offensive options_, because your so freakin' leet, right? What a pathetic crybaby pot calling the kettle black. You need CCP to hold your hand, you need all the "carebears" to be nerfed, why, because you're so tough, you're so billy bob badass that you can't do it otherwise? Do you even listen to the ridiculous tripe that you post in your own head before you post it? Do you realize what choad you sound like?

Go ahead, dude. Keep squacking on into the night for hours, post after post, with you gameworld _ideology_ that only you, the chosen prophet of Eve, see with any perspicacity. I bet you try this hard in real life, too.

We don't need you to tell us whether Eve is or is not "hard enough" with or without sanctums you arrogant overblown id-driven self-important drama queen. Apart from being someone to mock, someone to be occasionally toyed with and laughed at, the only attention you are worth is pointing how in this post you epitomize a total fraud.

"Boo-hoo....there's too many cyno jammers and jump bridges. Waaaaaaaaaaaaa. I'm a leet supergamer."


BWAHAHAHA EPIC WIN. Laughing

Skaarl
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:15:00 - [2144]
 

lolz i had missed that post, xel ra your my new hero.

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:33:00 - [2145]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper


Anoms earn 45m/hour? We have established anoms earn 150m/hour. If you're going to make nonsense up at least make something up to promote your pointless cause.

Building Titans and MS are what? Good to know the ISK used to buy and build them are in alliance leaders wallets. Next time you see a fleet of super caps remind yourself they're not there, the money was never used.

Liang and this nub are the definition of trolls. By picking some random numbers, false statements and making personal attacks they are not here to discuss anything, they're just here to antagonise.


I'm not trolling, and I'm also posting with my main. Also, who have I personally attacked? So, your claim is that everyone of these grunts, who can't pvp without this massive isk faucet, when they earn enough to replace (and insure) the primary ships of the line in nullsec combat in a couple of hours tops, is saving for a titan or scarrier through ratting now? YOU are either trolling, or just stupid.

I'll ask again, where is all the money going? If the answer is rent, and the burden is so high that the average member is stretched so thin, even at say, the 30 mil per hour figure that you threw out, the the issue is a social one, it has nothing to do with game design at that point.

TL;DR

The rent is too damn high.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.04.01 14:35:00 - [2146]
 

Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 01/04/2011 10:57:20
Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 01/04/2011 10:56:02
Originally by: El'Niaga
When's the last time they buffed something you cared about?


Well ones that come immediately to mind are the blanket minmater dps buff, rocket buff, salvaging buff with the noctis, and the epic null sec buff that is static anoms.

Originally by: Renan Ruivo

Sorry, the only ones who manage to pull off 150m/h witha anomalies are those who run with two or three carriers, or two carriers and one T3, or one super... you catch my drift.

If your average grunt can pull 60m/h, then he's doing VERY nice.


45m an hour per toon is actually quite a realistic figure i think for your average alliance grunt. I used to farm sanctums up in catch dual boxing a t2 fitted with max skills ishtar and geddon.

Both toons combined i used to make 100m/hr. My biggest isk bounty cycle i believe was 18.5m on each toon so 37m per 20mins which = 111m/hr but that was only if i was really focused on what i was doing.

I spent ages trying different ships/fittings but short of high isk pimping / using carrier + faction bs i could not get my IPH up any higher.

edited - messed up the quote :(



So you enjoy the static anoms they boosted nullsec with and are now nerfing?

Noctis is the first decent ship to come out in almost 2 years. I'll give you that, in a space game we'd expect more new ships.

Most people never make 45 m/hr, there simply isn't enough to do in 0.0 to support everyone making that much whose alliance is in 0.0.

Mithrasith
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:11:00 - [2147]
 

Posting in the first R4G3 N3rf thread of 2011.

Erdiere
Minmatar
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:42:00 - [2148]
 

Originally by: Erdiere
Edited by: Erdiere on 30/03/2011 16:18:51
CCP, the fact that you first introduced this 0.0 changing plan
in the "update: little things are still little" devblog, shows that you
don't either understand what you are doing, or do know what you are doing,
knew that it would generate negative feedback, but for some unexplainable reason
have locked yourself into believing your own misconclusion that it would benefit the
game and just planned to ninja it in as painlessly as possible.

This change is anything but little afterall.


Most people who live in 0.0 like pvp to a varying degree, if you wouldn't want
to have anything to do with the pvp aspect of the game you would just stay in
hi-sec doing whatever non-pvp activity you like with minimal risk.

The fact that most people in 0.0 like pvp also means that there are almost
no people in 0.0 who consider pve fun, and would do it for the sheer enjoyment
of it, which is a very big part of the appeal of pvp.
The more interested you are in pvp, the less interest you have in pve, and vice versa.

The reason people do anomalies in 0.0 is to earn isk that allows you to pvp.
They are not enjoyable, and when doing them for prolonged periods of time you can almost
feel the soul leaving your body, but everyone has to make money in the game somehow.


Doing the changes you have described in the dev blog, and almost completely removing sanctums and
havens from some regions, you have nerfed an important money earning method of normal 0.0
residents to a level where the only way to be able to afford the time and sanity to reach
the required levels of income for meaningful 0.0 pvp (not t1 frigate blobs) is to
start botting.

You are forcing people out from 0.0 back to the empire to do missions in almost complete safety
in order to earn their isk, you are also forcing them to have multiple accounts so that they can do
that and maintain some sort of presence in 0.0 (however, just why you think anyone would want to actually
live there without any benefits compared to hi-sec I don't know).

Do you honestly think that this will attract more people and newer/smaller entities to 0.0?
Do you really want to see EvE Online as the first mmorpg where multiple accounts are an absolute necessity?

Why would anyone, at least exclusively, stay in 0.0 and go through the pain of making isk there, if you can
safely make more money in hi-sec without the need to always be on alert for reds arriving and blowing you up?

People who can't or DON'T WANT TO acquire and operate a money making alt in hi-sec, will simply relocate to
empire for good or just quit the game.

Whatever the outcome, 0.0 will have less players/characters as a result of the change.

If you really are hellbent on changing the system, make it so that the best true sec systems have some extra high level sites compared to the worst true sec systems, don't remove the only sites worth doing from the lowest "band".

.
..
.....

One of the reasons why you (CCP) might be thinking this is a good change was seen on the fanfest when
you stated that you don't really think EvE Online as a game, a product that is usually associated with
the expectation of enjoyment.

However, you really should, you really should think Eve Online as a game from time to time, and this is
one of those times.

A game cannot indefinitely increase the suffering from its unpleasant and non-enjoyable aspects in order to
sweeten the joy from the few enjoyable moments it offers via constantly starker contrast between the two.


EvE Online has always balanced on the edge in this regard, these changes are just a one more unneeded push at the players,
and some of them WILL fall out as a result, if CCP really insists on ramming them through.

There really are other games as well, I've heard that some of them are actually fun.

Quoting myself as 5th of April is approaching fast.

1OF NINE
Minmatar
WE BLOCK SANCTUMS
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:50:00 - [2149]
 

Thanks to the new patch, we founded this corporation to block sanctums in the fifth band that enrich only some, we do not hot drop because we do not have ships for that not that we follow, we will stay afk cloak in sanctums grid and you have only one chance to make that sanctums after down time or share some isk what you get from them.


recruitment are open for any able to fit a cloak.

Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:53:00 - [2150]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
****previous stuff (look up if you are really that interested *****


So you enjoy the static anoms they boosted nullsec with and are now nerfing?

Noctis is the first decent ship to come out in almost 2 years. I'll give you that, in a space game we'd expect more new ships.

Most people never make 45 m/hr, there simply isn't enough to do in 0.0 to support everyone making that much whose alliance is in 0.0.


Yes i did enjoy the anoms whilst i was in sov 0.0, I made an absolute fortune from them + the 10/10 drops.

I would rather see them balence existing ships before bringing out new ships if im honest. CCP have a habit of not balencing old content before moving onto new content.

There is SOO much to do in 0.0. Ok admitably there isn't that much log-on, grind, log-off material but that does not mean there isn't enough to support people. To list a few:-
Wh'ing, mag sites, radar sites, plexing, belt ratting, cosmos agents, trading, pi, (lol) mining, gas mining, blitzing hubs for 6/10s, moon-goo + other pos crap, etc,etc.

Most of that stuff you can't put an IPH mark on so you can't really make comparisons, but to say without sanctums people can't support themselves just isnt true.

Evangalin
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:57:00 - [2151]
 

I understand there are multiple ways to make Isk in eve. But lets think about the effect of limiting one of them especially in 0.0, say sanctums and havens. If you are a brand new player who is driven by progress but not gifted with patience what are your options?
Moon mining is not one of them cause it takes to long to research and a lot of Isk.
Belt Ratting, (ha your lucky if a third of the belts at least have a BS to shoot down that's less then one mill.)
Missions (um sorry but I don't know you well enough to give you a job try my other associate who is 36 jumps away and gives crap missions like finding dolls for a 40 year old weirdo)
Hmmm... what else is around that you can make a decent amount of Isk and still shoot things? Anyone? Oh lets see...
Hubs, maybe I can do that (warping to one now, what reds in system ah &%*$ what are they doing hubs? Cause they cant find any other way of making Isk and have a better chance of getting easy PvP against your PvE ship kills BOOM!) So now I'm out of a 70-100 million Isk ship that takes you 2 weeks of solid of ratting to get.
Oh maybe I can trade..... my alliance is at war and I would rather shoot things then warp gate to gate for the next Year while getting blown up by war targets... so yeah my options are pretty limited at making decent Isk with my corp.
What... what you mean fly smaller ships? Did I pay actual money so I can dinkle dork around in a stupid frig and barely take the paint off these tech 3 PvP moon mining rich guys?? Seriously your just making the game sound more difficult and ******ed to even attempt playing. CCP I challenge you to go out to 0.0 in a skill set of 5 million skill points with a few friends and try to stay there and pvp for a few months and see how well you do. Then come back to me and tell me why these changes could benefit you rather then benefiting the moon miners that blockade all entry point in a system with all the sanctums. Tell me how you can even afford to fly a battle cruiser and pvp every day with say 6-12 skirmishes every few hours. Then tell me how bored you get and would find more enjoyment in playing WOW after you stand there ship spinning cause you cant afford to do even one skirmish every few days. The truth is that I'm not a hardcore player, but I want to be, just not one that takes hours upon hours of care bear methods to afford it. Oh wait that's right you want me to blow $15 on your plex's so I can afford to pay for ships and play to have a good time. Sorry but I'm not that foolish, I have other games to enjoy that don't involve a 15$ monthly fee that give me just the same amount of game play. True I'll probably stick it out as long as me and my corp is willing, but if we have to go to highsec and live there to make isk that's as far as I'm willing to go, or any other hardcore 0.0 PvP'r is willing to go as well.


P.S. If you check my killboards and don't see a lot of kills from me its cause Ive been busy trying to get Isk for it, its true I was finally done paying back one of my corpmates for helping me buy my first battle ship for PvE'ing but I guess soon it wont matter that I was able to get that done cause the most I can do with it is belt ratting after these changes, and lets see a show of hands how that works out in 0.0. vs sanctum runs with your corpmates? Either get blown up by roaming frig roams or have poor returns vs good fun and social enjoyment? Whats your opinion?

Don Gongal
Posted - 2011.04.01 15:59:00 - [2152]
 

Originally by: 1OF NINE
Thanks to the new patch, we founded this corporation to block sanctums in the fifth band that enrich only some, we do not hot drop because we do not have ships for that not that we follow, we will stay afk cloak in sanctums grid and you have only one chance to make that sanctums after down time or share some isk what you get from them.


recruitment are open for any able to fit a cloak.


At least someone adapt to the new conditions :). I think a large number of players already think at ransoming -0.8 - -1.00 as a new source of income. I think the owners will pay what you ask if you block 10 anomalies lol

Pod Bot88
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:02:00 - [2153]
 

Originally by: 1OF NINE
Thanks to the new patch, we founded this corporation to block sanctums in the fifth band that enrich only some, we do not hot drop because we do not have ships for that not that we follow, we will stay afk cloak in sanctums grid and you have only one chance to make that sanctums after down time or share some isk what you get from them.


recruitment are open for any able to fit a cloak.

so... making isk by just keeping your pc open?
its better than afk missioning :D

Ravenfoe
Amarr
The Chaos Hegemony
The Lostboys
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:10:00 - [2154]
 

Edited by: Ravenfoe on 01/04/2011 16:19:18
Edited by: Ravenfoe on 01/04/2011 16:16:16
As someone who led a small alliance that lived in nul-sec for a while I have to agree with what 99% of the people are saying here. With rental and sov bills to pay and a smaller player base, I relied solely on the Havens and Sanctums to support our alliance and get ahead. As our initial -0.23 system was the only one that we could afford in the beginning, the Sanctums were VITAL in allowing us to expand our operations in NUL. With no good moons and few belts for mining, I can honestly say that without these sites present we would never have been able to have made the move into nul. From the little man's perspective, these changes will require that any alliance that wants to make the move to nul would have to already have a huge high-sec support system and a pre-made capital fleet before even thinking of nul as the "beginner" systems available for rent would preclude any income ability to attain these things in nul.

These changes won't make it easier for smaller alliances to get a foothold in nul-sec it makes it almost impossible. Instead of a smaller alliance renting modest sec level systems, working their asses off with the lower sites to attain upgrade availabilities and isk to purchase the upgrades and then using this money to expand and get a stronger foothold you'll be forcing these small guy alliances that want to move to nul to just disband and join their corps to one of the exhisting power blocs in order to even have a chance of succeeding at all or, even, to just pull out of nul-sec completely. Whithout Sactums and Havens I can say absolutely that these would have been the only two options for my alliance. So I feel that if these changes go into affect you'll see a mass exodus of smaller alliances pulling out of nul and back into high-sec or merging with the already too big alliances as they will no longer have the means to even pay the rent and sov bills let alone grow as an alliance.

I don't post much on the forums but I love this game and therefore couldn't let this one pass without speaking my mind. I'm not going to say CCP sucks or anything like that because they have given me and awesome game to play and the fact that everyone in this thread cares enough about this game to get as mad as they are about this topic says that CCP has done many things right. However, I have to beg you, CCP, to please not implement these changes. Nul-sec is the end-game dream of many a smaller alliance. Please don't take away the only tools these ambitious pilots have to achieve this!

Machinegunner Bob
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:14:00 - [2155]
 

Mad
May be there is won't changes to alliances' wallets, but it's a strike on a players' wallets.
And if it will be abled I'll leave the 0.0 because I'll lose the income.

Zamiq
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:19:00 - [2156]
 

Originally by: Lost'In'Space
Originally by: kasai zenpachi
we use expensive ships and lose thing with out problem


Wait a minute, you want to use expensive ships and lose without problem.... just because you are in 0.0? why?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Just because you want to field carriers and dreadnoughts, doesn't mean you have to have the option to farm for a day or two, and return in fully fitted carriers to participate in a 1000 v 1000, and then come to COAD and ***** at CCP to fix lag.

If you're in 0.0 and want more rewards, fine! But that doesn't mean you should get many many times the reward the empire has to offer just because you are in 0.0


Yes it does, unless you are war decced in high sec there is little risk. In null sec there is always risk, thus the rewards should be greater. Now, for anyone who wants bigger rewards they can just take their stuff and move to null sec, oh wait you wont be able to anymore because come April 5th your system will be ****.

REDRUM44
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:39:00 - [2157]
 

So much for your sandbox theroy on eve,ya know your next trailer might want to add "your playing in our sandbox if you start to succeed in any way we will change and nerf the game to make it impossible" Mad

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.01 16:55:00 - [2158]
 

Originally by: Ravenfoe
I'm not going to say CCP sucks or anything like that because they have given me and awesome game to play

They've "given" you a game, you've given them a fleet of corporate jets. I think you're about even. You don't really owe them anything. They, on the other hand...

Omida Pufoasa
Posted - 2011.04.01 17:03:00 - [2159]
 

Edited by: Omida Pufoasa on 01/04/2011 17:02:47
hopefully this is a 1st of april joke
if not... its brutal! much to brutal.

Simvastatin Montelukast
Empire of Collateral Damage
Posted - 2011.04.01 17:14:00 - [2160]
 

I tried to read through all 72 pages of this topic.
Did I miss the CSM's input?


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