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Elzon1
Caldari
Shadow Boys Corp
Bloodbound.
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:12:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Elzon1 on 25/03/2011 22:13:26
I thought you guys were just going to change the isk/drop value of the sites, not completely drop them.

Its obvious most renters in 0.0 will do a mass exodus back to high sec. Most people who were happy with the amount interesting things happing in 0.0 will have to move back to a situation of mind numbing boredom. You may not think it, but stuff like this will in fact lose you a lot of accounts. I'm not talking about the whole mass threat of leaving, but its more a matter of fact and I have seen it happen many times.

I hate it when developers waste their time like this. Now you will have to completely drop what you were about to do and rework it only change the isk/drop values. After reading the blog I knew there was a tsunami of rage on the way. This isn't about a few little whiners here or there, this is the vast majority of 0.0. You accomplished the goal of getting a ton of people out to 0.0, please don't ruin it.

So basically CCP, bad move. I live in those greener pastures, but this doesn't make me happy at all. Not to mention after all of those renters with crappy true sec leave 0.0 the rent for those still there will rise dramatically or more likely we will be kicked out and replaced by the controlling alliances pet carebears.

I hope this is a joke CCP. If not, please tell us the deadline so we can start moving our stuff out.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:13:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Cailais on 25/03/2011 22:14:09
Part of the problem, at least as I see it, is that the current status quo is a 'flat' universe: the same in all locals so there is no value in moving to better ground.

CCP Greyscales blog however also promotes a 'flat' universe in that it is unchanging. There is, perhaps, value in moving ground and chasing the higher value systems but only once. When the major powers have settled on the latest isk faucet they will simply become entrenched and EVEs conflicts will stagnate again. Sadly in the stampede a lot of smaller entities are likely to become squeezed out.

Stagnant and eternal (i.e they never deplete) ISK faucets seem a poor choice in this case. If those faucets depleted however and new faucets could be discovered through exploratory efforts: then we would have a dynamic and volatile universe. Not a flat one.

C.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:14:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Part of the problem, at least as I see it, is that the current status quo is a 'flat' universe: the same in all locals so their is no value in moving to better ground.

CCP Greyscales blog however also promotes a 'flat' universe in that it is unchanging. There is, perhaps, value in moving ground and chasing the higher value systems but only once. When the major powers have settled on the latest isk faucet they will simply become entrenched and EVEs conflicts will stagnate again. Sadly in the stampede a lot of smaller entities are likely to become squeezed out.

Stagnant and eternal (i.e they never deplete) ISK faucets seem a poor choice in this case. If those faucets depleted however and new faucets could be discovered through exploratory efforts: then we would have a dynamic and volatile universe. Not a flat one.

C.


First useful criticism in the thread tbh.

Sadaris
Gallente
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:18:00 - [154]
 

Early aprils fools right? I got a better fix for the isk facet of sanctums/havens make them gated so caps/supers cant **** thmem 23/7

Colonel Kuntshlapper
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:18:00 - [155]
 

If you want to make the majority of Null Sec worthless this is a great idea. There are many things wrong with Null Sec. Blobs, over powered super caps, moon goo, etc. Player owned Null Sec stations are worse than High Sec ones, no missions, poor refineries. But instead of fixing any of that you want to nerf anomalies, great, now most of null will be just like most of low sec, completely useless and uninhabited. Perhaps you could just delete them from the server and use the extra processing power to handle the influx of mission running alts into high sec hubs. Rolling Eyes

Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:22:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Colonel Kuntshlapper
If you want to make the majority of Null Sec worthless this is a great idea. There are many things wrong with Null Sec. Blobs, over powered super caps, moon goo, etc. Player owned Null Sec stations are worse than High Sec ones, no missions, poor refineries. But instead of fixing any of that you want to nerf anomalies, great, now most of null will be just like most of low sec, completely useless and uninhabited. Perhaps you could just delete them from the server and use the extra processing power to handle the influx of mission running alts into high sec hubs. Rolling Eyes


What's wrong with blobs, supercaps, moongoo?

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:23:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 25/03/2011 22:23:31
Alrighty. Let's go point by point in more detail.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Yes, but pre-Dominion there were also fewer players living out of each system.


And what is your point there? That you might need to go a system over from your station to do your ratting and plexing? Oh wait, you're busy putting up a station in that system too....


That doesn't change the fact that the proposed changes will reduce the number of players that low-value systems can support, since those systems will have anomalies with are currently functionally worthless, leaving only belt ratting as a viable source of income. Merely because a Sansha Hub now has a different set of collideable objects does not make it any more valuable. The belt rats in systems where true-sec is above -0.2 are not terribly valuable to begin with. So the number of players in regions with low-value systems will have to decline, or those players will have to spread out to occupy more systems.

Instead of creating conflict by packing lots of alliances in a small space, this change actually incentivizes alliances to effectively spread out to support their existing numbers. We might see a bit of short-term conflict, but in the long run things will either stay the same as alliances physically occupy low-value systems currently under their nominal control, or will actually become more static since now individual players (and by extension new alliances) will have no interest in taking over low-value systems.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote:
There's a reason why decent pre-Dominion alliances had ship replacement programs.


While many alliances said they had ship replacement programs, I always found that unless you were sucking the FC and/or alliance leader off you weren't gonna be getting anything at all replaced. So basically: no they didn't.


That probably means you should have moved to a better alliance.

Point stands. An alliance with access to high-end moons and other alliance-level ISK faucets is already in a superior position relative to other alliances, since it can leverage those ISK faucets to keep its members in the fight by either replacing losses entirely, or providing ships at reduced cost to alliance members.

However, currently alliances without those ISK faucets, or without large-scale ship replacement programs, can still compete successfully since their individual players have good revenue streams which are not affected significantly by player density. A Military-5 system can support dozens of players running anomalies simultaneously, since anomalies re-spawn instantly, which means that multiple players can team up for anomalies knowing their their income will not be significantly affected by the presence of other players, since as soon as they finish an anomaly, it immediately respawns. That same system can only support a few belt-ratters, however, since belt ratting is a solo activity where the presence of other players quickly begins to cut into profits. Belt-ratting is good income; anomalies below Haven-level are not.

Therefore, the proposed changes will significantly tilt the balance of power in favor of established alliances who can afford ship-replacement programs, or who occupy high-value space. Alliances residing in space with few or no high-value systems who cannot afford will be consistently outgunned and outnumbered, since their space will not support more than a few players, unless their members don't mind hopping back to Empire for some mission-grinding.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote:
Basically, CCP is arguing that by nerfing the income of individual players in certain regions, they will create incentives for players to fight over those more valuable systems.


Thought I'd fix that for you.


True. However, alliance conflict isn't driven by anomaly access to begin with, and it's unlikely that this will change.

Royaldo
Gallente
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:26:00 - [158]
 

Boost to true sec. How will this affect delve and fountain btw?

Also, not boost for current 0.0 powerblocks? Have you guys even looked at the drone regions?
Of the top 10, only 1 region outside drone regions is there. Deklein.

I told you 4 years ago that ****ty 0.0 space needed a boost.
With this change you just the gap between ****ty 0.0 and good 0.0 bigger.
And guess who lives in the good 0.0 space? Yeah ofc the small guys gonna take on the big guys now.

orphenshadow
Gallente
Easy Co.
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:27:00 - [159]
 

CCP,
Seriously, tell me this is some kind of twisted april fools joke. This will have a dramatically opposite effect as to what you claim your goals are.

I am an alliance leader of what was a small alliance. When dominion came out we took it to heart. We wanted something more than NPC 0.0 and we wanted a bigger chunk of the pie.

We ended up in providence. We had no moons. We had ****ty tru-sec. But we worked our asses off upgraded our space and made it ours. We were not part of any power block. We did not swim in a sea of blues. We played the game because we love to pvp. Sanctums bairly give the pilots enough isk to pay for the ships needed to lose them on a daily basis.

We have since made some friends grown and moved into a much nicer region of space. This was your original intention was it not? To get us interested and to make us want more?

We have grown a lot in the past year or so. We have made some new friends and we fought with them to conquer a new region. We have a couple moons. But not enough to justify the space soley based on the moons. We again busted our asses and upgraded our space so that we could afford our glorious battle steeds.

In comes CCP to essentially ruin the game for nullsec residents. It's become painfully obvious that no one at CCP cares about the pilot in nullsec. CCP keeps claiming that they want to make 0.0 interesting. Guess what CCP, Plex's are NOT ****ING INTERESTING. Anomalies are NOT ****ING INTERESTING. Missions NOT ****ING INTERESTING. They are a means to an end NO ONE cares about any of the storyline/roleplay aspects behind them.

The ONLY reason we come to 0.0 and we upgrade our space is so that we can afford the basic pvp ships to roam around and explode into each other on a nightly basis. You take away our income. You take away the reason we play the game.

You claim that eve is a sandbox. Yet everything I have read about many of the upcoming changes in nullsec seems to be built around the idea that somehow having multiple alliances working together to build an empire is wrong. So rather than embracing the sandbox. You choose to **** in it.

I hate to break it to you CCP, look at the real world. Look at the political relationship between the world powers. It's not much different than that in eve. It's how humans work. Will always work, and no matter how many times you tell 0.0 residents to bend over and take it like a prison ***** you will not change this.

I do not subscribe to this game because I find anything in PVE to be fun. The only reason I do PVE is to pay for my pvp habit. Which the current system was a really nice balance. I could spend a night a week doing sanctums/havens for a couple hours and then go enjoy eve for a week.

But since CCP is hellbent on ruining the user experience in nullsec. I think its probably time to finnaly cut the ties and unsubscribe, and as im sure any alliance leader out there knows the amount of personal drain this game has, and to have everything you worked for thrown in the garbage bin. It's quite disheartening.

So on that note.

FIRE CCP GREYSCALE

Kateryne
Minmatar
Kat's Discount Weapon Emporium
NISYN Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:29:00 - [160]
 

I ****ing love this change. It means that the big, rich alliances need to focus their efforts more yes, but it also opens up the opportunities to hyper boost sanctum systems and make EVEN MORE ISKIES.
It then frees up the cheaper space for alliances that want sov for other reasons to claim a couple of systems here and there, not full blocs but enough to slap up some POS and have a laugh from.
I am not in a large alliance, i am not in possession of an isk sink, i am not a lv4 mission *****, i am a nobody who is at Fanfest and has spoken to various Dev's and understands better than the forum warriors that CCP aren't a reckless bunch of idiots who do nothing but screw over your so called '1337 pee vee peeh alliunsh'.
Thankyou for you time.Rolling Eyes

Master Gotama
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:30:00 - [161]
 

Okay, weíll take this one step at a time...

First off, here is your argument:
Originally by: Cailais
If the space isn't worth defending, surely its not worth attacking?

FALSE. FYI, large alliances/powerblocs allow their pilots to **** and pillage neighboring systems/regions that are not aligned because theyíre bored. As far as Iím aware, NRDS doesnít prevail in most of 0.0.
Originally by: Cailais
If its not worth attacking why do you need loads of isk to buy ships to defend it?

See above explination. You still need to defend your space even if said large alliance isnít going to squash you and take all your stuff. Itís a bit hard to operate in 0.0 w/o a decent home defense feet. And a pack of condors w/civilian rail guns just donít cut it.

See?!?

FantaKraut
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:32:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Cailais
Part of the problem, at least as I see it, is that the current status quo is a 'flat' universe: the same in all locals so their is no value in moving to better ground.

CCP Greyscales blog however also promotes a 'flat' universe in that it is unchanging. There is, perhaps, value in moving ground and chasing the higher value systems but only once. When the major powers have settled on the latest isk faucet they will simply become entrenched and EVEs conflicts will stagnate again. Sadly in the stampede a lot of smaller entities are likely to become squeezed out.

Stagnant and eternal (i.e they never deplete) ISK faucets seem a poor choice in this case. If those faucets depleted however and new faucets could be discovered through exploratory efforts: then we would have a dynamic and volatile universe. Not a flat one.

C.


First useful criticism in the thread tbh.


Dynamic Moon minerals...

Use the current sanctum/haven setup as a baseline improve from there.

or

**** over every nullsec pilot.


good to see CCP thought this one through.

PDP Kordal
Gallente
The New Era
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:32:00 - [163]
 

This is the worest IDea I have seen in 6 years CCP

This is Crap CCP

1. We want 0.0 to work better, more people in 0.0 etc, more battles (but spread out battles).
The Big alliances will be fighting over small pockets of space. Incoming for supporting the said battles will drop majorly. So the grunts will not be able to fight in the end. As replacing that 200mil fleet BS would take months to replace. More lag and more crappy 0.0 life


2. We want to differentiate 0.0 space so some is better than other space
(to give something to fight over).
You have a system for this already... belt ratting, better 0.0 systems get more chance of good drops. You will only be impacting the grunts that rat to replace ships. Alliances do not live of sanctum isk.


3. We want newer corps/alliances to be able to get a foothold.
How or why would anyone want 0.0 to start out in. U couldn't support the already ex*****ve SOV systems already in EVE. Why would they move out if u can get way more incoming running lvl 4's???? Without the extra cost of SOV bills.


The only thing I can see here is that CCP wants to "reduce lag in fleet battles due to the fact no one will be able to afford a replacement ship. so no one will join... or 300 X 300 t1 frig battles over sov???


Back to the drawing board CCP.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:33:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/03/2011 22:35:31
Originally by: Terianna Eri
I didn't.


As a noob with 5-10M SP, I lost a badger with many billions (HG crystal set, a bunch of Pith stuff, a bunch of DG stuff, tons of T2/best named back when that was expensive ****) in the cargo hold. I ratted that up in a Vexor and Myrm. I also took the time to spend most of my time roaming and PVPing.

I really don't know what you were doing wrong.

Quote:
But just going back to Empire is not only easier, but probably more lucrative anyway.


Easier yes.... but not more lucrative.

Quote:
P.S. Nerfing players' personal incomes only makes them less inclined to risk ships. Enjoy even more incentives to fly in huge, risk-free blobs.


Seems like nerfing players' personal income lowers the amount of ISK in the economy which drives the prices of everything down.

-Liang

Ed:
Originally by: Furb Killer
The only way the sov nullsec we are talking about here was better than mission running before dominion was exploration.


No.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.25 22:34:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Camios

  • Having space worth less than empire 0.5 mission hubs is not good




  • Sov nullsec was just as good or better than mission running before Dominion. Since Dominion it's been nothing but your average nullsec resident ****ting more raw ISK than pimped out pro mother****ers in high sec get through mass market PVP.

    -Liang


    Marginally better, if you were unmolested for extended periods of time. And if you had one guy per system NPCing, instead of the half-dozen a system can support now.

    aycee
    F.R.E.E. Explorer
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:34:00 - [166]
     

    ITT: mad nc & drone farm bots because they have to farm longer to get their nyx

    Ay Liz
    Sacred Templars
    RED.OverLord
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:35:00 - [167]
     

    Hell.. Nobody would want a -0.0 to -0.2 system anymore except for a few botters.. Small alliances (aka pets, the big boys will still roll over anything smaller no matter how bad you make those systems) that live in such space have basically only havens and sanctums as a viable income source.. Everyone who doesn't have a mission running alt in highsec will have a bloody hard time funding his PvP.

    And personally, if i had to choose between bending over and become a pet of a big alliance for literally worthless space or staying in empire.. Well, i wouldn't even have to think about it.
    Looking at this thread i wouldn't be the only one constantly annoying caldari navy agents.

    Widemouth Deepthroat
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:35:00 - [168]
     

    This is how it should have been since the sov upgrades were introduced.

    If you aren't happy that your space is now crap then fight for better space or stfu and go back to empire.

    Dregek
    Brutor Tribe
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:35:00 - [169]
     

    thoughts on blog

    Rolling Eyes

    Colonel Kuntshlapper
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:37:00 - [170]
     

    Quote:
    What's wrong with blobs, supercaps, moongoo?


    The NC/DC has too much of all of them Smile

    But seriously, the moon goo rebalance was supposed to do two things, drive more conflict and remove bottlenecks in T2 production. Worked really well. Rolling Eyes

    Supercaps went from under powered to overpowered and almost removed caps (especially dreads) from the game. There is only one counter to super caps, more super caps.

    Blobs break the server and make me wait 10 mins for my guns to cycles. I don't see how concentrating all of the pilots in 0.0 into smaller areas can do anything other than make that problem worse.

    Kittamaru
    Gallente
    Northstar Cabal
    R.A.G.E
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:37:00 - [171]
     

    *looks at Calander*

    Uhm... CCP... was this blog a week early? I mean... April Fools isn't for another 7 days...

    Cresalle
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:37:00 - [172]
     

    Edited by: Cresalle on 25/03/2011 23:26:28
    So basically what we're being told is that now that it's nearly impossible for a 'newcomer' to take space from the sov blobs you're going to nerf the **** out of all the 'newcomer' space and isolate the player-level income to space that is already firmly in the grasp of the invincible million-man armies.

    I'm going to try really hard not to be sardonic here.

    In the future I would appreciate it if you would submit this kind of plan to the CSM for review at least 6 months prior to beginning work on it.

    You do not understand sov. You do not understand player-level income. Apparently you do not understand alliance-level income either. You do not understand the reasoning behind the movements of the different groups in the game and you still seem to be laboring under the severely deluded opinion that the 'little guy' (or even the 'big guy') can actually make any kind of strategic progress against the sov blobs.

    Nulsec is a few big dogs snarling at one another and a load of fleas scraping around the edges. The proposed changes are basically a flea-dip.

    And I don't even run anoms.
    ----------------
    Edit:

    If you really want to promote conflict in nulsec then do this:

    * Incursions offline TCUs and halt moon mining and PI
    * Incursion regeneration rates are scalar in nulsec by the following formula:

    regen rate *= 1.0 + (truesec * -1)

    ------------
    Re-edit:

    Well, something along those lines, anyway. The point is that nulsec will only become wild if you implement some kind of system that will disrupt the capability of giant sov blobs to maintain. In both RL and EVE history shows very clearly that no great empire falls due to outside forces. It is internal strife that causes power blocs to weaken and then they topple to their aggressors. This is something that deserves a lot of careful thinking and it is detrimental to throw in semmingly random and thoughtless changes like this one before a solid long-term solution is found.

    Rexthor Hammerfists
    Caldari
    Vanishing Point.
    The Initiative.
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:41:00 - [173]
     

    Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 25/03/2011 22:41:45
    The idea is right, im glad to see that ccp wants to see more local conflicts and a more diverse landscape.

    But i believe there have to be a number of changes before local conflicts have a hope of success.
    Currently The 3-4 blocs can control so much space because its a simple and quick operation to mow any indipendent sov holders down that nest in "their" space a few regions away. The work and isk it takes to build up something via sov and the ease for a bigger capfleet to come from regions away kicking it over will repress any local conflicts. Same with jumpbridges btw, tho capmovement is a worse thing imo.

    Also for more independant alliance to survive without renting, some smallish changes would help. As example pos rights that make it harder to steal pos hangar contents.



    The best way yet, combined with restricted cap and fleet movement, is a sov system based on occupance. If a small alliance has the willpower to stay in a system or constellation and a coalition from regions away does not - no 50 supercarrier blob making a 10minute appearance should sway the outcome.

    Herschel Yamamoto
    Agent-Orange
    Nabaal Syndicate
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:44:00 - [174]
     

    Originally by: Liang Nuren
    Originally by: Alice Katsuko
    Yes, but pre-Dominion there were also fewer players living out of each system.


    And what is your point there? That you might need to go a system over from your station to do your ratting and plexing? Oh wait, you're busy putting up a station in that system too....


    Not every alliance owns a whole region, you know. Some of us don't have another system over we can go.

    Originally by: Liang Nuren
    Quote:
    There's a reason why decent pre-Dominion alliances had ship replacement programs.


    While many alliances said they had ship replacement programs, I always found that unless you were sucking the FC and/or alliance leader off you weren't gonna be getting anything at all replaced. So basically: no they didn't.


    Fly with less terrible alliances?

    orphenshadow
    Gallente
    Easy Co.
    Fatal Ascension
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:49:00 - [175]
     

    Originally by: Cresalle
    So basically what we're being told is that now that it's nearly impossible for a 'newcomer' to take space from the sov blobs you're going to nerf the **** out of all the 'newcomer' space and isolate the player-level income to space that is already firmly in the grasp of the invincible million-man armies.

    I'm going to try really hard not to be sardonic here.

    In the future I would appreciate it if you would submit this kind of plan to the CSM for review at least 6 months prior to beginning work on it.

    You do not understand sov. You do not understand player-level income. Apparently you do not understand alliance-level income either. You do not understand the reasoning behind the movements of the different groups in the game and you still seem to be laboring under the severely deluded opinion that the 'little guy' (or even the 'big guy') can actually make any kind of strategic progress against the sov blobs.

    Nulsec is a few big dogs snarling at one another and a load of fleas scraping around the edges. The proposed changes are basically a flea-dip.

    And I don't even run anoms.


    Quoted for motha-funking truth.

    Karl Shade
    Entropy associates
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:50:00 - [176]
     

    Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

    Not every alliance owns a whole region, you know. Some of us don't have another system over we can go.


    So take it.

    Fulou
    Wrecking Shots
    Wildly Inappropriate.
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:50:00 - [177]
     

    If this change goes live, i'm seriously jumping into a hulk to join the lag fast in empire, if i don't hang up my Pilots license at all. Its hard enough to make iskies as it is as a small fish out here, so the poor space gets nurfed and the good space which is controlled by whales gets a boost, so they can afford to kick my ass twice as fast....thanks CCP, well thought out there. The power of not listening to your paying customers.

    FYI, this will not make it easier for new alliances to get sov space, it will make it easier for people to kick them out again, genius!

    Ibis roam anyone? I have a nice t1 railgun to try out.

    Falkor1984
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:50:00 - [178]
     

    Nice way to keep what was bad about Dominion (stupid sov system) and to trash what was good about Dominion (ability to upgrade systems). Excellent work, CCP Rolling Eyes

    Gogela
    Freeport Exploration
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:52:00 - [179]
     

    Anything that makes one part of space different from another is a step in the right direction.

    That is all.

    Querns
    Posted - 2011.03.25 22:53:00 - [180]
     

    Hey, so I ran a few database queries to see which regions would be affected the most positively by this change. These queries are making one large assumption: regions with pirate sovereignty like Venal, Fountain, Delve, etc which have broken truesec are not having their broken truesec status considered for anomaly qualities by this change.

    http://pastebin.com/nejK4smN

    Since the drone regions are horrible, this shows that Goons live in the best 0.0 space in eve~


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