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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:04:00 - [1441]
 

Originally by: Tania Russ

The part that makes my "BS-o-meter" really twitch is the fact that the trolls in this conversation who are pro-change are all themselves likely very similar to the normal pirate/griefer model, a big mouth hostshot PvP pilot noob-and-carebear calling while hypocritically supporting all their PvP activity with an alt-corp botter swarm mining away somewhere in Khanid.



lolz.

Quote:
STOP the BOTTERS.


Seems like they're trying. I wish they'd try harder. Overall, +1

Quote:
2. Make the Dreadnought class ship what is was supposed to be: a badass. Make it 10x more effective against other caps and make it able to hit and pwn BSes. Immediately this ship clkass, accessible to all, becomes the de facto crapkicker of all low and nullsec, empowering pretty much anyone to go out and lay waste, thereby taking the power away from the NAPing, mom-blobbing current powers that be.



Now that's a terrible idea.

Quote:
3. REMOVE the ability to AFK CLOAK.


"AFK" cloaking is one of the few ways to legitimately attack a supply chain. In either case, your 50 guys AFK in the station do the same thing to me when I come harass your space. Maybe if it's simply doing away with AFK'ing at all?

Quote:

4. Make moon goo deplete and make it migrate from moon to moon, anywhere in EVE. Suddenly you need to chase the good goo, and my little corp might luck out and have it appear in one of our "junk" systems just for fun, at least until someone comes along and kicks the crap out of us for it.



There seem like there's lots of ways to solve this problem. That is one of them, but I think it's not necessarily the best one.

-Liang

Evil Stare
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:15:00 - [1442]
 

Originally by: bp920091
While i understand the intent of CCP, and touching sanctums and havens is an excellent way to get at this, a BETTER way to make -9 to -10 more valuable is to drastically increase the amount of sanctums and havens in those areas. While this change will make space more likely to be "fought over" (still wishful thinking by CCP), a proper way to do this is to leave the 0.0 to -0.4 regions of space alone or to decrease the value of them by small amounts (-50% MAX). A possible way to structure the changes could be (assuming 4 sanctums/havens with military upgrade 5 in current situation).

Security Sanctums/Havens Percent change
0.0 to -.2 |2-3| (-50% to -25%)
-.2 to -.4 |3-4| (-25% to 0%)
-.4 to -.6 |5-6| (25% to 50%)
-.6 to -.8 |6-7| (50% to 75%)
-.8 to -1.0 |7-9| (75% to 125%)

Another possible way that this change could be made is that lower security areas of 0.0 could get correspondingly higher rates of faction/officer spawns. (Take the rates of change from the above table for adjusted rates of change for faction/officer spawn increase).

This numerical value would make -.8 to -1.0 space incredibly valuable, while only slightly nerfing (25% to 50%) low value 0.0 space. This change will cause valuable 0.0 to be very profitable, increasing its value, and making eve less "flat" while still allowing small alliances to make money and function, without having to go back to highsec and run missions.

Please respond to this (CCP hopefully, but i don't expect that it will be the case) with either agreements or critiques of this idea. If you do feel that this idea would not work, please make some recommendations, so we as a playerbase can stand up to CCP and say that THIS is a change that we would feel good about.




^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Shocked

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:18:00 - [1443]
 

Originally by: Besoina

And like 1 poster mentioned, all it takes is 1 cloaky hot dropper to hang out in system to halt the entire operation.




My sig is the anwser:

Inanna NiKunni
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:24:00 - [1444]
 

I think CCP is on to something, i bet they are doing this to fight lag - yes LAG. less havens and sanctums means less isk for the grunts, which means less pvp ships, less people in fleet and therefore smaller blobs. I approve this message.

Tania Russ
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:26:00 - [1445]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Tania Russ

The part that makes my "BS-o-meter" really twitch is the fact that the trolls in this conversation who are pro-change are all themselves likely very similar to the normal pirate/griefer model, a big mouth hostshot PvP pilot noob-and-carebear calling while hypocritically supporting all their PvP activity with an alt-corp botter swarm mining away somewhere in Khanid.



lolz.

Quote:
STOP the BOTTERS.


Seems like they're trying. I wish they'd try harder. Overall, +1

Quote:
2. Make the Dreadnought class ship what is was supposed to be: a badass. Make it 10x more effective against other caps and make it able to hit and pwn BSes. Immediately this ship clkass, accessible to all, becomes the de facto crapkicker of all low and nullsec, empowering pretty much anyone to go out and lay waste, thereby taking the power away from the NAPing, mom-blobbing current powers that be.



Now that's a terrible idea.

Quote:
3. REMOVE the ability to AFK CLOAK.


"AFK" cloaking is one of the few ways to legitimately attack a supply chain. In either case, your 50 guys AFK in the station do the same thing to me when I come harass your space. Maybe if it's simply doing away with AFK'ing at all?

Quote:

4. Make moon goo deplete and make it migrate from moon to moon, anywhere in EVE. Suddenly you need to chase the good goo, and my little corp might luck out and have it appear in one of our "junk" systems just for fun, at least until someone comes along and kicks the crap out of us for it.



There seem like there's lots of ways to solve this problem. That is one of them, but I think it's not necessarily the best one.

-Liang


Liang, you make by BS-o-meter twitch more than any other poster in this entire thread.

Come up with some actual ideas instead of base trolling, mockery and drivel commentary, maybe your posts will be worth reading.

Selpy
Caldari
Penumbra Military Industrial Complex
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:36:00 - [1446]
 

Time to put on my corporate conspiracy theory hat and give my view on the real reason for this nerf - it has little to do with 0.0 mechanics and gameplay, and more to do with CCP's income. CCP perfectly understand the concept of 0.0 and the warfare mechanics, as well as sov dynamics. They know they the alliances that they claim to be targetting will be affected in no way by this nerf. Even to someone who doesn't understand fully, these changes make no sense whatsoever in the light that they're explained. However, if you look at my theory of why this is being done, it makes sense and falls nicely into place.

Too much money is being made in 0.0. Sanctums and Havens are massive isk faucets. No one will argue that they're isk faucets - both from supporters and naysayers. In the large PvP alliances, much of that personal income goes into members equipping with more PvP ships and related equipment to fight large scale sov warfare and general PvP, but most goes to line the members' wallets. People will rat to get their income to get the ships and equipment that's not provided to them by their alliance ship replacement programs, as well as personal isk. Much of the isk generated by general members of the large sov-holding alliances is used in this matter. Alliance level income comes from tech moons, so this has zero effect on what space an alliance decides to settle.

However, in these large alliances, and probably moreso in renter alliances (due to the little amounts lost in PvP), and too many accounts are being subscribed by PLEX rather than actual money. Seriously, look at any renter alliance, and most members have multiple accounts, often with most, if not all of them, being paid by isk via PLEX. PLEX is only a good thing for CCP when people are buying it from them to convert to ISK in game (which then then lose). When people are renewing their subscriptions with PLEX, that's $15 / month that CCP isn't getting for that account. No money makes CCP sad.

By pulling the rug out from under people and further nerfing anoms (the new 6-7 min timer between respawn was Step 1), people who relied on isk / PLEX to pay for alt accounts will now come up horribly short of isk to do that. Unless they're in the best null systems, then they're going to either have to spend more time grinding away, or will have to pay for their alt accounts out of pocket. The latter is what CCP wants. This is a money grab and has little to do with "balancing 0.0", or whatever label CCP wants to put on it.

Honestly, Greyscale, that blog is probably the most backward thing you've ever written. I usually look forward to your blogs. You have a great, naturally fluid writing style. But this one sounds very forced and unnatural and doesn't have your regular flow or writing style. It's like you know what you're saying is bull, but trying to convince us (and perhaps yourself) of it anyway. It's kind of like the newly converted vegetarian biting into that first soy burger at a friend's cookout and forcing that "MMMMMMMMMM, that's good burger" out to convince everyone (including yourself) that you like it, while knowing it tastes like compressed saw dust.

Where's the CSM when we need them?




Ravora
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:42:00 - [1447]
 

Originally by: Tania Russ
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Tania Russ

The part that makes my "BS-o-meter" really twitch is the fact that the trolls in this conversation who are pro-change are all themselves likely very similar to the normal pirate/griefer model, a big mouth hostshot PvP pilot noob-and-carebear calling while hypocritically supporting all their PvP activity with an alt-corp botter swarm mining away somewhere in Khanid.



lolz.

Quote:
STOP the BOTTERS.


Seems like they're trying. I wish they'd try harder. Overall, +1

Quote:
2. Make the Dreadnought class ship what is was supposed to be: a badass. Make it 10x more effective against other caps and make it able to hit and pwn BSes. Immediately this ship clkass, accessible to all, becomes the de facto crapkicker of all low and nullsec, empowering pretty much anyone to go out and lay waste, thereby taking the power away from the NAPing, mom-blobbing current powers that be.



Now that's a terrible idea.

Quote:
3. REMOVE the ability to AFK CLOAK.


"AFK" cloaking is one of the few ways to legitimately attack a supply chain. In either case, your 50 guys AFK in the station do the same thing to me when I come harass your space. Maybe if it's simply doing away with AFK'ing at all?

Quote:

4. Make moon goo deplete and make it migrate from moon to moon, anywhere in EVE. Suddenly you need to chase the good goo, and my little corp might luck out and have it appear in one of our "junk" systems just for fun, at least until someone comes along and kicks the crap out of us for it.



There seem like there's lots of ways to solve this problem. That is one of them, but I think it's not necessarily the best one.

-Liang


Liang, you make by BS-o-meter twitch more than any other poster in this entire thread.

Come up with some actual ideas instead of base trolling, mockery and drivel commentary, maybe your posts will be worth reading.


The problem is... Liang has not been involved into Sov-Fights since 04/2010 so she hasn't a clue.Evil or Very Mad
Currently she's in Lowsec so she doesn't care.... let her troll aroundRolling Eyes

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:44:00 - [1448]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 29/03/2011 18:45:07
Originally by: Selpy

However, in these large alliances, and probably moreso in renter alliances (due to the little amounts lost in PvP), and too many accounts are being subscribed by PLEX rather than actual money. Seriously, look at any renter alliance, and most members have multiple accounts, often with most, if not all of them, being paid by isk via PLEX. PLEX is only a good thing for CCP when people are buying it from them to convert to ISK in game (which then then lose). When people are renewing their subscriptions with PLEX, that's $15 / month that CCP isn't getting for that account. No money makes CCP sad.



You dont understand how PLEX works. CCP doesnt care if you pay the $15, or the dude you bought the PLEX from did. Either way they get their $15.

In other words, there is always someone who will convert the PLEX into gametime, they are not good for anything else (well, you can put them into a Kestrel and get blown up in Jita for the lulz I guess).

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:52:00 - [1449]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan

You dont understand how PLEX works. CCP doesnt care if you pay the $15, or the dude you bought the PLEX from did. Either way they get their $15.

In other words, there is always someone who will convert the PLEX into gametime, they are not good for anything else (well, you can put them into a Kestrel and get blown up in Jita for the lulz I guess).


QFT. Someone still bought the timecode to make the PLEX. CCP doesn't care who. PLEX is just a mechanism for those that have to buy game time and trade it for an agreed upon sum (market value) to someone who doesn't have/doesn't want to spend RL money on game time. The net to CCP is exactly the same.

Selpy
Caldari
Penumbra Military Industrial Complex
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:55:00 - [1450]
 

I can see both your points, and I can agree to a point with them. I still smell money grab, as the explanations or the reasons for these changes are asinine and make no sense.

<gets off soapbox and removes tinfoil hat>

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:59:00 - [1451]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/03/2011 19:00:30
Originally by: Ravora

The problem is... Liang has not been involved into Sov-Fights since 04/2010 so she hasn't a clue.Evil or Very Mad
Currently she's in Lowsec so she doesn't care.... let her troll aroundRolling Eyes


Ah yes, me living in low sec and NPC 0.0 totally invalidates my opinion on botting, dreads, AFK cloaking, and moon goo. Laughing

-Liang

Ed: The funny thing is that there's a huge amount of rage being directed at moon goo - and rightfully so! But changing moon goo won't have the same effect on the economy (lowering net ISK inflow) - because moon goo removes ISK from the economy.

Inanna NiKunni
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:00:00 - [1452]
 

Originally by: Selpy


When people are renewing their subscriptions with PLEX, that's $15 / month that CCP isn't getting for that account. No money makes CCP sad.




good theory - but wrong, CCP got their money, somebody bought that plex for $15 and sold it for isk. so some people are paying with isk for something that was originally purchased with $ by someone else.


ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:03:00 - [1453]
 

Originally by: Arela Xen
Revamp the way Technetium is used in the t2 production instead of taking away the small mans income for pvp ships...
^^

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:06:00 - [1454]
 

Originally by: Selpy
I can see both your points, and I can agree to a point with them. I still smell money grab, as the explanations or the reasons for these changes are asinine and make no sense.

<gets off soapbox and removes tinfoil hat>

People quitting or unsubbing their alts doesn't equate to money grab. Kicking 1/2 the people out of 0.0 (which is what CCP are doing) destroys their way of playing, meaning there will be no reason for them to keep playing, meaning less $ for CCP. CCP's just too ****ing stupid to see it.

Maybe they are hoping people will start to sell more plex to fund their 0.0 warfare. If it's a money grab it's CCP trying to get in on the RMT. If so it will be a quick burst of income followed by the company going under.

Godiever
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:12:00 - [1455]
 

Could they now just re adjust the "true sec" of the systems?

Make it that the further away you are form the nearest lowsec/high sec, the lower true sec the system becomes?

This way, the deeper you are in null sec = the greater hassles/risks = the greater rewards!

Selpy
Caldari
Penumbra Military Industrial Complex
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:17:00 - [1456]
 

Originally by: mkmin
Maybe they are hoping people will start to sell more plex to fund their 0.0 warfare. If it's a money grab it's CCP trying to get in on the RMT. If so it will be a quick burst of income followed by the company going under.


This is what I believe is happening to an extent.

Of course, I may have hit the bong a little too hard and my mind is wandering too. lol

Seriously speaking though, I do feel there's more to this nerf than the reasons they're giving us, as even someone with basic understanding of how 0.0 works would know right away that plan is ******ed. And also the way Greyscale wrote the blog - I don't know, but as I read it, I feel like it was someone else's work that he just slightly edited himself. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it just doesn't sound like his usual work.

Skaarl
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:23:00 - [1457]
 

Originally by: Inanna NiKunni
I think CCP is on to something, i bet they are doing this to fight lag - yes LAG. less havens and sanctums means less isk for the grunts, which means less pvp ships, less people in fleet and therefore smaller blobs. I approve this message.


ccp is well aware that the grunts dont cause the lag, supercarriers and fighter bombers do. i have been in systems with 500v500 fights where all is well. as soon as supers take the field all hell breaks loose. why? consider this. every fighter bomber is essentially a drake. the server has to track movement and missile spam from each one. every mothership can field up to 20 fighter bombers. a 80 v 80 super carrier battle will generate more lag than those thousand grunts simply because as soon as they drop FB's the server is suddenly tracking on the order of 3000 missile spamming ships. this is what is generating the lag. its not the "grunt".


Skaarl
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:26:00 - [1458]
 

Originally by: Selpy
I can see both your points, and I can agree to a point with them. I still smell money grab, as the explanations or the reasons for these changes are asinine and make no sense.

<gets off soapbox and removes tinfoil hat>


how about this consiracy theory (and yes im just tossing it out lol):

CCP loves isk farming bots. notice the drone russian areas are the least effected. as CCP finds and bans these routinely the botters buy a new account, keeping even more money rolling into the CCP wallet. as isk dries up for the average joe who will be effected by this they will be forced to buy isk, either from CCP or more than likely the bots. which will lead to more botters, more bans, and therefore more money.

Sli'co Scoser
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:26:00 - [1459]
 

Originally by: Godiever
Could they now just re adjust the "true sec" of the systems?

Make it that the further away you are form the nearest lowsec/high sec, the lower true sec the system becomes?

This way, the deeper you are in null sec = the greater hassles/risks = the greater rewards!



One would hope this would happen to prevent parts of the far end of Omist and other far-flung regions from having -0.01 true sec. Combine this with a JB nerf to justify the distance from Empire resulting in a reason for a lower true sec (gate to gate or jump driving your way to the end of the galaxy would give more opportunity for supply chain ganking).

SamuelK
Natural Selection.
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:27:00 - [1460]
 

hats off to grayscale in this most epic of troll threads.

btw, everyone above and below me are being trolled by ccp

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:36:00 - [1461]
 

Originally by: Skaarl

CCP loves isk farming bots. notice the drone russian areas are the least effected.


Lets assume for a moment the drone regions are indeed full of bots (from my experience roaming there sometimes, these 'bots' at least smack you in local occasionally).

Lets furthermore assume CCP intentionally designed this change in order to boost the drone regions.

Maybe the intention is to give players incentive to pile into the drone regions by the thousands and make them a complete warzone, thus effectively killing off botter incomes?

/puts on tinfoil hat

Maybe the intention is to boost DRF in the hopes they will steamroll the other NAP coalitions off the map with an endless stream of supercaps. Then nerf said supercaps into the ground in order to reopen those regions for the taking. Might all be a huge conspiracy to give nullsec a fresh start.

Carsdottir
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:38:00 - [1462]
 

much of everything! anyone want 5 characters ?

They gave us milk for so long and now we are white colored water trick.

Well I say if those systems become dynamic that is -1 when it is sure to become more crowded and those who do not really do anything in them to become more uncertain since the rats living there


Harocko K'zack
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:38:00 - [1463]
 

Originally by: bp920091
This is yet another example of how CCP does not understand nullsec. Alliances will not change their goals, as their goals are not affected by the security class of their target system, that is more often an unintended side effect.
All this change does is make the few deep 0.0 systems more valuable (which would be a good thing if it was not already settled), while turning the VAST majority of 0.0 space into desolate wasteland once again.
If CCP wanted small alliances to succeed, killing the way that they can actually compete with others is not the way to do so. They are killing their way to fight large alliances as small to mid sized alliances use Anomalies to earn cash, rather than moons, as large alliances just take them for themselves.

A way that a positive change could be made, and still implementing the changes that they would like to see is improving the anomalies by security status, but not nerfing the lowsecurity areas (0.0 - -0.4). They could do this by increasing the number of faction drops even more in high security anomalies. This would still make deep 0.0 still very valuable, without killing the ability for small alliances to actually fight back against huge power-blocks.

Also, CCP could gradually improve 0.0 space (not by large amounts, but gradually), as huge areas of it would be turned into wasteland once again with this "fix".

I certainly hope CCP realized that all this change will do is increase the strength of power-blocks (something they say that they do not want to do), while reducing the ability for small alliances to actually do things (again, something they say they do not want to do).



Bp920091 has the ABSOLUTE right idea. I dont care if high end sec status gets MORE of something (let it be moons, drops, higher chances of special spawns, whatever) but DONT punish the poor. Keep the 2 sanctums and the 2 heavens, and whatever else the lower sec status have that the higher doesnt.
CCP didnt take away Faction battleship blueprint drops from occuring in lower sec, but they did make it higher in the value over in the higher end sec status. CCP also didnt take officer spawns away, they made it MORE possible in higher end sec status.

So dont take the heavens and sanctums away, just give the higher end sec status MORE.

Seraphin Foad
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:43:00 - [1464]
 

Awesome plan... Just a few flaws.

1) How are the members of those larger alliances able to afford the push for more desirable space if you've nerved the way THEY make isk?
2) Why would alliances move if they're sitting on decent moons?
3) Why... O why, will we move for more desirable space when 100 people moving through a gate in 0.0 lags out the game?

CCP Greyscale is killing 0.0 for the average members. Stop hiring from the Central Park Zoo.

TEHb KOMETbl
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:44:00 - [1465]
 

If ccp will remove high anomalies of -0.0 -0.2, I will remove EVE!!!! Evil or Very Mad

DevkaEpt
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:51:00 - [1466]
 

Originally by: TEHb KOMETbl
If ccp will remove high anomalies of -0.0 -0.2, I will remove EVE!!!! Evil or Very Mad

Me to...Sad

Pedro Snachez
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:53:00 - [1467]
 

Originally by: Godiever
Could they now just re adjust the "true sec" of the systems?

Make it that the further away you are form the nearest lowsec/high sec, the lower true sec the system becomes?

This way, the deeper you are in null sec = the greater hassles/risks = the greater rewards!



Honestly, when I started the game, that is exactly how I imagined 0.0 worked because it makes sense on a very basic level. I imagined that the further away from some central middle point you went, the more dangerous and lucrative the space must be as Concord protection waned. I still think it's weird that it doesn't work that way. It would be better to push people further away from highsec entrances for good money than to just nerf/buff whole regions by some arbitrary truesec system that's been in place since forever.

Ultimately, this is what I hate about these changes. They just make very little sense. CCP wants more dynamic 0.0, so they roll back the system that made people settle 0.0 in large numbers (anonamlies), but they leave the major ISK anchors for alliances in place (moons). Add to this the horrific sov grind and you've got one part of a change that might be really good for 0.0 coming through with no support from other changes. I am reserving judgment to see what happens, but it seems like not enough has really been changed to make people move to other rich regions as long as moons are still the way they are (stationary). Also, considering most bots don't live in settled 0.0 systems, having more unsettled systems is a weird stealth buff to the bots that just rat belts in empty space.

The whole change just seems very poorly-explained, developed and executed, which is unsettling. Also, Greyscale could seriously use a PR person, as the communication from CCP about this has been terribad.

Seraphin Foad
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:54:00 - [1468]
 

Originally by: TEHb KOMETbl
If ccp will remove high anomalies of -0.0 -0.2, I will remove EVE!!!! Evil or Very Mad


Im on this band wagon, Battlefield 3 and diablo 3 should be out soon.

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.03.29 20:00:00 - [1469]
 

Should these changes go through, it will likely not stop larger Alliances from holding regions from which profit can be extracted via the moons. Especially if the profit is large enough to warrant keeping the space, which in the case of certain R64 types: it is.

We'll have to see how this works out.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.29 20:06:00 - [1470]
 

I'm still looking for the specific timeline CCP has to realize that this is ****ing stupid. I kinda wish it was within a week so I could just cancel my accounts before it becomes time to resub. Would suck to have to wait a few months until the next expansion to know whether or not to quit permanently. Hell, maybe it's a good idea to just quit permanently anyway to get out of the CCP drama bull**** cluster**** cycle. If this change goes through it's CCP saying we're all wasting our time with this game, because the time will count for nothing.


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