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Tariana Eve
Posted - 2011.03.28 03:15:00 - [961]
 

Damn it! this is my first post.
CCP: Leave it alone! work on fixing the current bugs
instead of changing things like this. Seems like you guys
are so into making the game look pretty but very ineffective.
I seems like is done to truly get rid of your older players.
Or maybe they dont care about their loyal customers?


Kellanari
The 5th Freedom
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2011.03.28 03:30:00 - [962]
 

On the plus side, this will make it easier to get pitchfork gangs to attack fleets as they have to defend the 1 sanctum system that whatever alliance has. Moar pew for me is good, and I do still remember how to chain rats in belts so my income won't be totally screwed.

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:06:00 - [963]
 

I bet 90% of the people screaming about the unfairness of this change were also screaming at CCP Nozh for saying that the proposed supercarrier changes were a bit OTT and needed re-thinking.

Game design by mass hysteria is stupid.

deadeye mike
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:24:00 - [964]
 

First of all this is a really bad idea as stated by so many others in this thread. the trolls who agree are not worth listening to.

If this goes ahead as many have said most of null sec will not be worth having people in. If you are dead set about this use the Ihub's to alter the true sec of a system so if on a ihub there is 9 slots this could upgrade a -0.01 system to the -1 that you so want people to fight over.

the second option could be all null sec calls a truce with each other for a month and we **** and pillage high sec and really give the high sec carebears something to complain about insurance for high sec ganking. (this option would not cost 0.0 alliances much, mods and the first ship, insurance will cover the rest)

CCP listen to us if you go through with this it will be a major mistake as only the small individual player will be affected not those looking for fights.!!!!!!!!Evil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:34:00 - [965]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
I bet 90% of the people screaming about the unfairness of this change were also screaming at CCP Nozh for saying that the proposed supercarrier changes were a bit OTT and needed re-thinking.

Game design by mass hysteria is stupid.


So let's all just sit and keep our mouths shut, because as we all know CCP doesn't screw things up.

oh wait..

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:39:00 - [966]
 

Originally by: Renan Ruivo
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
I bet 90% of the people screaming about the unfairness of this change were also screaming at CCP Nozh for saying that the proposed supercarrier changes were a bit OTT and needed re-thinking.

Game design by mass hysteria is stupid.


So let's all just sit and keep our mouths shut, because as we all know CCP doesn't screw things up.

oh wait..


While I laugh every time I watch that, it doesn't change the fact that game design by mass hysteria is stupid. ;-)

-Liang

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:49:00 - [967]
 

Edited by: Renan Ruivo on 28/03/2011 04:53:30
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Renan Ruivo
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
I bet 90% of the people screaming about the unfairness of this change were also screaming at CCP Nozh for saying that the proposed supercarrier changes were a bit OTT and needed re-thinking.

Game design by mass hysteria is stupid.


So let's all just sit and keep our mouths shut, because as we all know CCP doesn't screw things up.

oh wait..


While I laugh every time I watch that, it doesn't change the fact that game design by mass hysteria is stupid. ;-)

-Liang


Agreed. However, ignoring the public reaction would be even more stupid. The single most valid argument here is that the proposed changes would simply not achieve the desired effects. They would, in fact, do the exact opposite. Power blocks would become even more entrenched, controlling even more concentrated resources and small alliances would have an even harder time settling in.

People used to get by before dominion, but thats not whats in discussion here. CCP Greyscale wants to clean his house by using a bucket full of mud.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:58:00 - [968]
 

Edited by: Super Whopper on 28/03/2011 05:02:21
Originally by: Liang Nuren
While I laugh every time I watch that, it doesn't change the fact that game design by mass hysteria is stupid. ;-)

-Liang


We should let CCP and their data compute it, because last time CCP computed anything they came out with their 18 months comment, lots of bad publicity and a sharp drop in subscriptions.

The last people who have a clue on how to implement change in this game it's CCP. For years idea's have been put forward on how to change the game for the better e.g. moon rebalancing, lvl 4 mission rebalancing, finishing work on FW and WH's, rebalancing guns, etc. but CCP just can't grasp it. No matter how often they're told by CSM and players they just keep on computing.

Sony also computed, how did that work out for them? If total epic fail (death of every MMO) is a good business plan then CCP need to keep going down this road. In a few years and the death of EVE and WoD (CCP are CCP and will be CCP) they'll be able to say: "We didn't want that company anyway".

Originally by: Renan Ruivo
Agreed. However, ignoring the public reaction would be even more stupid. The single most valid argument here is that the proposed changes would simply not achieve the desired effects. They would, in fact, do the exact opposite. Power blocks would become even more entrenched, controlling even more concentrated resources and small alliances would have an even harder time settling in.

People used to get by before dominion, but thats not whats in discussion here. CCP Greyscale wants to clean his house by using a bucket full of mud.


If you look at subscriptions you'll see that there was a sharp rise when CCP released Tyranis. Since then we've had a decline. While people got on just 'fine' before anomalies there weren't this many people playing.

Go back to those days and people will leave for other games, especially those who can't pay for the game through any other mean than Plex. Clever? Only if losing money is clever as a business model.

S'pht'Kr h'Narhl
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:17:00 - [969]
 

Someone mentioned leaving the changes as is and also adding a new way to add sanctums to bad space

I like that idea. Incursions come to take people away from empire, pirate factions come to take people away from your planets, and you go kill them...

Lord Zorana
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:17:00 - [970]
 

instead of removing something in order to make ppl fight, y not instead add something? as i remember the old fixed 10/10's used to cause a lot of intrest in certain sections of space so why not bring them back.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:24:00 - [971]
 

Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 28/03/2011 05:25:22
Originally by: Lord Zorana
instead of removing something in order to make ppl fight, y not instead add something? as i remember the old fixed 10/10's used to cause a lot of intrest in certain sections of space so why not bring them back.


Because static stuff have a nasty habit of getting monopolised.

The right question is:
Instead of nerfing income of a nullsec grunts in order to make them fight (if you see any logic in that), why not boost it instead so they can actually have something to fight with? Or even better... leave it alone and let the players deal with it.

Frodo Teabaggins
Minmatar
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:35:00 - [972]
 

Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 28/03/2011 05:25:22
Originally by: Lord Zorana
instead of removing something in order to make ppl fight, y not instead add something? as i remember the old fixed 10/10's used to cause a lot of intrest in certain sections of space so why not bring them back.


Because static stuff have a nasty habit of getting monopolised.

The right question is:
Instead of nerfing income of a nullsec grunts in order to make them fight (if you see any logic in that), why not boost it instead so they can actually have something to fight with? Or even better... leave it alone and let the players deal with it.


kinda like tech moons right?

no, what needs to happen is CCP needs to not listen to players' bias and make the damn game harder.

Sem Nan
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:48:00 - [973]
 

Originally by: Frodo Teabaggins
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 28/03/2011 05:25:22
Originally by: Lord Zorana
instead of removing something in order to make ppl fight, y not instead add something? as i remember the old fixed 10/10's used to cause a lot of intrest in certain sections of space so why not bring them back.


Because static stuff have a nasty habit of getting monopolised.

The right question is:
Instead of nerfing income of a nullsec grunts in order to make them fight (if you see any logic in that), why not boost it instead so they can actually have something to fight with? Or even better... leave it alone and let the players deal with it.


kinda like tech moons right?

no, what needs to happen is CCP needs to not listen to players' bias and make the damn game harder.


Good for you. Oh wait, you're not alone on this game.

Oh wait, your position is not the majority position either.



Yeah....

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:57:00 - [974]
 

Originally by: Frodo Teabaggins
kinda like tech moons right?

no, what needs to happen is CCP needs to not listen to players' bias and make the damn game harder.


Indeed, CCP need to make the game really hard and losses need to hurt badly. That way EVE can be turned into a hard core game for a hard core community of gamers.

When the game's dropped from 40k online to less than 10 you will realise how bad your idea is.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:02:00 - [975]
 

Originally by: Renan Ruivo

Agreed. However, ignoring the public reaction would be even more stupid. The single most valid argument here is that the proposed changes would simply not achieve the desired effects. They would, in fact, do the exact opposite. Power blocks would become even more entrenched, controlling even more concentrated resources and small alliances would have an even harder time settling in.

People used to get by before dominion, but thats not whats in discussion here. CCP Greyscale wants to clean his house by using a bucket full of mud.



I haven't seen any compelling evidence that the changes won't accomplish their goal ... but I have seen a crap ton of people knee jerking.

-Liang

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:15:00 - [976]
 

Edited by: Desert Ice78 on 28/03/2011 06:35:59
Lang, you know as well as I do that a hub cannot support one player in nul-sec (ignoring that you paid a bil to get that hub in the first place), never mind a corporation or alliance.

Thats 40% of nul-sec.

And we both know that havens can only support a modest sized corporation of maybe 10 to 15 ratters (and I'm being VERY generous with that figure.)

So thats another 20%.

So, 60% of nul-sec is about to be depopulated and turned into a barren wasteland.

You were looking for evidence of this being bad (the stated goal being to make nul-sec more interesting, vibrant and dynamic)??

Greyscale NOW wants me to attack my formerly blue buddies for their one scantum (because I sure as hell am not attacking WN for their -0.75 sec system; my drake against their Super-blob?!?!?).....

Nah, I'll just go back to hi-sec and run level 4 missions; more ISK, safer, less hassle, got a market there too.


rantuket
Caldari
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:21:00 - [977]
 

I hope that this was a pipe dream and someone accidentally published a draft...

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:22:00 - [978]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78

Lang, you know as well as I do that a hub cannot support one player in nul-sec (ignoring that you paid a bil to get that hub in the first place), never mind a corporation or alliance.



lolwut. are you freaking serious?

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:25:00 - [979]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Desert Ice78

Lang, you know as well as I do that a hub cannot support one player in nul-sec (ignoring that you paid a bil to get that hub in the first place), never mind a corporation or alliance.



lolwut. are you freaking serious?


Yes, you telling me you've never run one???

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:39:00 - [980]
 

"wah wah I'm going back to high sec to do lvl4" Why not WH/low incursions? Or low sec lvl4/5, 0.0 missions? Same reason you spend only a very small portion of the large amount of isk you generate atm through sanctum farming on pvp.

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:44:00 - [981]
 

Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
"wah wah I'm going back to high sec to do lvl4" Why not WH/low incursions? Or low sec lvl4/5, 0.0 missions? Same reason you spend only a very small portion of the large amount of isk you generate atm through sanctum farming on pvp.


Maybe I will, maybe I'll just unsub my accounts, or maybe I'll afk cloaked in Jita for the next two years.

The point (if your subtle enough to be able to get it) is that Greyscale has proposed changes for stated reasons, the net result of which will be the exact opposite of said reasons.

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:57:00 - [982]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Desert Ice78

Lang, you know as well as I do that a hub cannot support one player in nul-sec (ignoring that you paid a bil to get that hub in the first place), never mind a corporation or alliance.



lolwut. are you freaking serious?


Yes, you telling me you've never run one???


I'll take the high ground here and ask: What are the things that the two of you consider to be the basic for the null-sec player?

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:17:00 - [983]
 

Good example of how small alliance should go is Convicted.

Move to npc space.
Take over moons from weaker opponents.
Take over good isk generating location possible (old goon pocket in syndicate).
Build up membership and numbers before trying to get into a bigger 0.0 alliance or continue doing your own thing.

Unfortunately they ended up in NC but there are many others who have done it and still doing it.

Not carebears though. They'll just whine on the forums wanting all the benefits of 0.0 while avoiding conflict and even demanding CCP make things in their favor.

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:23:00 - [984]
 

Renan,

Your a nul-sec alliance, its meant to be the "elite" aspect of the game, and every player is in time supposed to graduate into it. With the end-game senario that it's meant to be, it should be risk v reward; maximum risk, maximum reward.

Living in nul-sec, with all the risk, and now zero reward?!?!? How are you meant to sell that to anyone; I'll get the same reply everytime...meh, i'll do level 4's instead.

I am frustrated Renan, because that is so bloody obvious to me, and yet has somehow managed to escape Greyscale.

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:35:00 - [985]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78
Renan,

Your a nul-sec alliance, its meant to be the "elite" aspect of the game, and every player is in time supposed to graduate into it. With the end-game senario that it's meant to be, it should be risk v reward; maximum risk, maximum reward.

Living in nul-sec, with all the risk, and now zero reward?!?!? How are you meant to sell that to anyone; I'll get the same reply everytime...meh, i'll do level 4's instead.

I am frustrated Renan, because that is so bloody obvious to me, and yet has somehow managed to escape Greyscale.


ok look at it this way... maximum risk = maximum reward... so the deeper into null you go, the higher the risk so the anom's give higher rewards! and the wonderful renters that are given "SAFER" pockets have oh low and behold lesser rewards Shocked Looks Like CCP Have done well to me Very Happy

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:45:00 - [986]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Desert Ice78

Lang, you know as well as I do that a hub cannot support one player in nul-sec (ignoring that you paid a bil to get that hub in the first place), never mind a corporation or alliance.



lolwut. are you freaking serious?


Consider drone anomalies. A Drone Squad (Hub-equivalent) yields approximately 5 million ISK in alloys and takes an average-skilled pilot who does not have access to a carrier or marauder or other rather expensive ship approximately twenty minutes to complete (including scanning and salvaging/looting). A Drone Patrol (Haven equivalent) yields approximately 20 million ISK in alloys and takes that same pilot approximately thirty or at most forty minutes to complete. A Drone Horde (Sanctum equivalent) yields approximately 26 million ISK in alloys and takes approximately forty minutes to complete (Sanctums are worth more because drone faction spawns are worthless). So in terms of simple ISK per hour, a Drone Squad is significantly inferior. However, a Drone Squad takes more effort to run than a Drone Patrol or Horde, since its spawns consist mostly of numerous frigates and cruisers; Drone Patrols and Hordes have smaller spawns consisting of more-valuable battleship-sized rats. The situation is similar for regular anomalies, although I do not have access to bounty data on them at the moment.

As can be seen from the above, the income from anomalies below Havens/Sanctums is rather low. A pilot running nothing but Sansha Hubs or Drone Squads can look to make perhaps twenty million ISK per hour, assuming he is not interrupted by hostiles. That same pilot can make rather more running missions in Empire, in much greater safety and with rather less effort, even if the proposed changes to missions go through. While belt rats in high-truesec space are not terribly valuable, belt ratting will actually yield more income than running Hubs or Drone Squads, assuming there are enough belts. So no sane alliance will bother installing military iHub upgrades if the best anomalies it can hope for are Hubs or their equivalent.

Since we can disregard the existence of anomalies below Haven level, as most pilots do not and will not run them, pilot income in space without Havens or Sanctums will have to come from belt ratting, or from Empire jump clone/alts. Only a small number of players can belt rat in a system at once; the income from running level 4 missions will be reduced once level 4 missions are nerfed.

Therefore, the proposed changes will have three effects:
  1. Space with mostly high truesec systems (above approximately -0.4) will revert to its pre-Dominion state of relative uselessness. It will be able to support a small number of local pilots; all other pilots living in that space will have to make their ISK elsewhere, as they had been forced to do before Dominion. This will make PvP more costly and less convenient on an individual level, reducing conflict.

  2. Alliances living in space with mostly high truesec systems will not be able to challenge large powerblocs since they will not be able to support the large player densities necessary to field fleets of any decent size. Corollary to that, players living in that space will not be able to afford high-quality PvP ships due to a reduction in income sources. This will reduce conflict and further solidify the positions of existing power blocs which will now have access not only to high-end moons for alliance-level income but also good anomalies for player-level income.

  3. There might be some reshuffling of systems and constellations, but we will not see any major changes in the nullsec landscape. Nullsec conflict on the small scale has been driven by player boredom, which has to be funded by various PvE activities; the big conflicts are driven by moons. The first NC alliance to reset its neighbors like CCP so desperately wants will be crushed and its space divvied up.

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:51:00 - [987]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 28/03/2011 07:51:56
Originally by: Desert Ice78
Greyscale NOW wants me to attack my formerly blue buddies for their one scantum (because I sure as hell am not attacking WN for their -0.75 sec system; my drake against their Super-blob?!?!?).....

Nah, I'll just go back to hi-sec and run level 4 missions; more ISK, safer, less hassle, got a market there too.



This summarizes one large part of what's wrong with Greyscale's thinking. Reducing the income of individual pilots, and then expecting them to go out and risk their ships more often in more frequent conflicts is silly. Expecting them to reset their neighbors, especially against 10:1 or worse odds is sillier yet. I'm sure that not all the members of the Northern Coalition get along all the time; but none of them are stupid enough to declare war on the others, because they all know that they will be blobbed into oblivion. So much for breaking up coalitions.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:55:00 - [988]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/03/2011 07:56:41
Originally by: Desert Ice78
Renan,

Your a nul-sec alliance, its meant to be the "elite" aspect of the game, and every player is in time supposed to graduate into it. With the end-game senario that it's meant to be, it should be risk v reward; maximum risk, maximum reward.

Living in nul-sec, with all the risk, and now zero reward?!?!? How are you meant to sell that to anyone; I'll get the same reply everytime...meh, i'll do level 4's instead.

I am frustrated Renan, because that is so bloody obvious to me, and yet has somehow managed to escape Greyscale.


Pretty damn arrogant to assume that 0.0 is the end game of Eve. IMO, the end game of Eve is when you graduate from the blob mentality of 0.0 into the solo/small gangs of low sec. Elite 0.0ers indeed. Rolling Eyes

Here we go: "A neutral has jumped into local"
High Sec Response: "Huh? Didn't notice..."
Low Sec Response: "He's probably out to get me. Better watch D-Scan for probes."
0.0 Response: "ZOMG, NEUTRALS?! THE INTEL CHANNEL WAS QUIET wTFFFFF. GET THE COUNTERFLEET TOGETHER, NEED SUPERCAPS HE'S IN A VEXORRRR!!!!"

-Liang

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:55:00 - [989]
 

All this really does is hurt the "average Jo" 0.0 dweller like myself. I get to play enough during the week but only enough I get to do one thing at at time e.g earn isk for pvp or actually out on roams.

I hate running sanctums/havens and all that stuff but when your stuck in the arse end of nowhere it's the only way of making isk if your based soley on combat. The sites are clogged up anyway with the big boys in the carriers etc so even when I get chance to make isk 50% there's already someone in it. Basically CCP want to turn me into a mission runner for some reason, my guess (tongue in cheek) is that they realise they will never fix the lag in 0.0 so have decided to make 0.0 unprofitable for the average player so in the end all of us will leave to become high sec carebears leaving only in CCP's exact words "high end players" only in 0.0.

What they should have done is make all 0.0 systems have "more sites" so this will tempt more people in 0.0 (especially if you make sites around the entrance pipes more valuable) this will increase pvp as more people drift in trying to make a fast buck. Bah what do I know. Really not a great idea Greyscale, I would stick to looking at pron and daydreaming about nailing Bjork.


Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:58:00 - [990]
 

Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Desert Ice78

Lang, you know as well as I do that a hub cannot support one player in nul-sec (ignoring that you paid a bil to get that hub in the first place), never mind a corporation or alliance.



lolwut. are you freaking serious?


Text


I don't know, there are people here who swear on their mothers and their mother's uncles that they used to make MORE money on true 0.0, with their alliances and corps that had 20 blues on local at any given time, than it was possible to make ALONE on HIGH-SEC doing Level 4 missions with high quality agents.

I can't argue with that.... i simply don't know how to explain why a telephone is not a water bottle.


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