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Orar Ironfist
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.26 16:43:00 - [601]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Hey everyone,

It'd be pretty difficult not to notice the fairly strong negative reaction this blog's getting so far, and any time this sort of reaction occurs it's pretty common policy for us to take a pause and do another evaluation pass on the design, taking into account the arguments raised by players. Obviously we're in the middle of fanfest right now so everything takes a little longer than usual, but I'm going to talk to some people tomorrow, get some other perspectives, and figure out whether or not we're still happy with both the direction and the details here.

We are starting to take another serious look at a range of nullsec issues right now, with an eye to fixing structural issues with the current design. Be aware that fixing the problems we're facing is very likely going to involve disrupting the current status quo, and in at least some cases I'm expecting us to push through changes we're confident in despite (expected) negative feedback. We have to consider the long-term big picture, and that priority may sometimes conflict with the immediate interests of some elements of the playerbase. That said, this may or may not be one of those occasions - watch this space.

Have a nice weekend everybody, and I'll try and get back to you with more info next week
-Greyscale


Your doing the right thing. Dont cave to whiners

Ancyker
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.03.26 16:47:00 - [602]
 

Edited by: Ancyker on 26/03/2011 16:53:40
This is so fail. I think you got nullsec confused with highsec. Highsec is "safe" yet you can make almost as much as in null currently. So your change make you make less in over half of null than in highsec with more risk than highsec. What is this? Are you high? Do you really not see it? I can't believe this ****.

Here's some points for you:
  • Alliances mostly only care about systems with good moons

  • Only individual members care about havens and sanctums

  • A large alliance isn't going to move leaving behind good moons just because a few members want more sanctums

  • Space with crappy anoms will still be held by large alliances just because they can. That's by your design, if you want region sov you need a lot of systems

  • Even if small alliances manage to take crappy space no one else wants, they won't be able to afford to keep it because you nerfed their income. Unless they want to run missions in highsec to pay for their nullsec ops.

  • You just said "regional income is on average the same" ... so why make the change at all if nothing is really changing?

  • If you want to "fix" nullsec then change the sov system or how moons work, not the anoms which really only the individual cares about. Doing it this way just ****es off your customers that enjoy doing anoms in null.


zealot shakree
Posted - 2011.03.26 16:52:00 - [603]
 

Originally by: Ancyker
This is so fail. I think you got nullsec confused with highsec. Highsec is "safe" yet you can make almost as much as in null currently. So your change make you make less in null than in highsec with more risk than highsec. What is this? Are you high? Do you really not see it? I can't believe this ****.


Just another dumb NC goon whining about his anomalies being taken away, Don't listen to the baseless emotional reactions of the mass of goon idiots who never even played eve pre dominion

Ancyker
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.03.26 16:54:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: zealot shakree
Originally by: Ancyker
This is so fail. I think you got nullsec confused with highsec. Highsec is "safe" yet you can make almost as much as in null currently. So your change make you make less in null than in highsec with more risk than highsec. What is this? Are you high? Do you really not see it? I can't believe this ****.


Just another dumb NC goon whining about his anomalies being taken away, Don't listen to the baseless emotional reactions of the mass of goon idiots who never even played eve pre dominion

Test isn't in NC genius.

progodlegend
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:04:00 - [605]
 

Originally by: Ancyker
Originally by: zealot shakree
Originally by: Ancyker
This is so fail. I think you got nullsec confused with highsec. Highsec is "safe" yet you can make almost as much as in null currently. So your change make you make less in null than in highsec with more risk than highsec. What is this? Are you high? Do you really not see it? I can't believe this ****.


Just another dumb NC goon whining about his anomalies being taken away, Don't listen to the baseless emotional reactions of the mass of goon idiots who never even played eve pre dominion


Test isn't in NC genius.


Yes you are, check that blue list again.

Im Blue
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:07:00 - [606]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Hey everyone,

It'd be pretty difficult not to notice the fairly strong negative reaction this blog's getting so far, and any time this sort of reaction occurs it's pretty common policy for us to take a pause and do another evaluation pass on the design, taking into account the arguments raised by players. Obviously we're in the middle of fanfest right now so everything takes a little longer than usual, but I'm going to talk to some people tomorrow, get some other perspectives, and figure out whether or not we're still happy with both the direction and the details here.

We are starting to take another serious look at a range of nullsec issues right now, with an eye to fixing structural issues with the current design. Be aware that fixing the problems we're facing is very likely going to involve disrupting the current status quo, and in at least some cases I'm expecting us to push through changes we're confident in despite (expected) negative feedback. We have to consider the long-term big picture, and that priority may sometimes conflict with the immediate interests of some elements of the playerbase. That said, this may or may not be one of those occasions - watch this space.

Have a nice weekend everybody, and I'll try and get back to you with more info next week
-Greyscale

so clearly you dont play eve. your understanding of what players want and what alliances want are so wrong its not funny.
you **** people over with the now planned ****ty value upgrades after they have spend the time, effort and isk on them, you better be offering refunds and discouted ****ing sov bills, to counter the stupid ideas on a none eve playing fool.

BlondieBC
Minmatar
Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:21:00 - [607]
 

This change nerfs null sec, and does a relative high sec buff. This change will move more people back to income. CCP should have any null sec nerf balanced by a high sec nerf. Why not do one of the following:
1) Lower bounties, rewards, and LP of high sec missions and income by 25%.
2) Move all level 4 agents to low sec and null sec?
3) Limited the number of missions per agents per hour. For example, maybe one agent should only give a combined 15 missions per hour to all players.
4) Change loot table so no meta 3 or 4 loot is dropped in high sec.

apefaced
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:22:00 - [608]
 

CCP GrayScale didn't even bother to make an avatar lol

progodlegend
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:29:00 - [609]
 

Originally by: BlondieBC
This change nerfs null sec, and does a relative high sec buff. This change will move more people back to income. CCP should have any null sec nerf balanced by a high sec nerf. Why not do one of the following:
1) Lower bounties, rewards, and LP of high sec missions and income by 25%.
2) Move all level 4 agents to low sec and null sec?
3) Limited the number of missions per agents per hour. For example, maybe one agent should only give a combined 15 missions per hour to all players.
4) Change loot table so no meta 3 or 4 loot is dropped in high sec.


They are already making changes to mission running which are going to heavily nerf them, so read up next time.

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:30:00 - [610]
 

Edited by: Tommy Blue on 26/03/2011 17:35:28
Originally by: Frodo Teabaggins
Originally by: Tommy Blue
I'm going to say this again.

The worst nullsec system in eve should still make you more money than the best level four missions.


not every system is meant to rat in... what happens when its a system with 3 belts and -0.01?... the mentality that all 0.0 is good is quite unrealistic... it may have moons but as for ratting... lol.


Not as they are, but fully upgraded, the worst 0.0 system needs to at least support a ratting activity that nets more than the best lvl 4 misison (ISK per hour).

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:34:00 - [611]
 

Edited by: Tommy Blue on 26/03/2011 17:34:02

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:34:00 - [612]
 

Originally by: progodlegend
Originally by: Ancyker
Originally by: zealot shakree
Originally by: Ancyker
This is so fail. I think you got nullsec confused with highsec. Highsec is "safe" yet you can make almost as much as in null currently. So your change make you make less in null than in highsec with more risk than highsec. What is this? Are you high? Do you really not see it? I can't believe this ****.


Just another dumb NC goon whining about his anomalies being taken away, Don't listen to the baseless emotional reactions of the mass of goon idiots who never even played eve pre dominion


Test isn't in NC genius.


Yes you are, check that blue list again.


Who is blue has nothing to do with who is part of the NC. TEST and Goons are not part of the NC.

The panel is going on right now...I hope someone at the fanfest calls Greyscale out on this and asks about this thread.

Sir Ota
Amarr
Attack Force
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:39:00 - [613]
 

This is a huge step back and complete nonsense.
This innovation will not cause wars, etc..., just force many people to go back to the empire. War of alliances are caused quite other reasons. Null sector will be almost empty.

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:43:00 - [614]
 

This is great. People saying that alliances won't have their incomes affected by this, remember, if player's get disgruntled (by getting nerfed income) they'll either pressure their leaders to move to greener pastures, or find an alliance that holds better space. Tech moons are valuable, but if their truesec gets nerfed, you'll have to find your ratters a better place for personal income, as well as holding those precious moons.


Missm Uppet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:43:00 - [615]
 

Greyscale and those involved, please reconsider these changes or at least their presentation to all of us. As it stands, 0.0 is already an incredibly harsh environment to make ISK in for the average player. Or at least that is the general conception when compared with empire and other safe/easy forms of income.

For a change this substantial, you at least need to backup your assumptions and conclusions with both more data and analysis.

From my own experience in 0.0, I don't think you're going to be able to justify this kind of change even with more explanation because frankly I don't think you thought this out and took all things into consideration.

At least consider encouraging a different reason to fight over space beyond income. There are plenty of non-ISK incentives in the realm of clout and vanity that have had little or no consideration from CCP in recent memory.

Please reconsider the changes outlined in this devblog.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:46:00 - [616]
 

Dear sweet jesus its a great time to own delve.

Mya ElleTerego
Amarr
The Hull Miners Union
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:48:00 - [617]
 

Edited by: Mya ElleTerego on 26/03/2011 17:58:49

I will prolly get flamed in my alliance chat, as we live in in providence atm, but I think its a good idea. I still remember ratting in belts, and looking for plexs to make isk. Once upon a time you didnt make 50-60 mil isk per hour ratting in your carriers / SC, and *gasp* eve still existed.

I do think its the wrong approach tho, I think ccp needs to revamp moon minerals, make sure the bottlenecks are shifted back to prom / dyspo which are much more evenly distributed than technetium which was a sham at the highest level.

I also remember when ccp introduced dominion and anyone who had sov the old way found out they had about 10-200 Pos's they didnt need anymore, that didnt cause everyone to quit the game however, I sincerely doubt this would either. Then again, I wouldnt mind seeing half the carebears that farm isk in anom's quit the game.

One of the critical things about this, and why its actually important to do, is that pre dominion most of the best systems weren't in perfectly situated dead end pockets, that allowed 10 min warning before hostiles showed up in your system and you had 20 large t2 bubbles on the gate, and jump bridges to ensure you could easily camp your enemies raiding party in like it was a joke. And farm in 99.9 % safety in your motherships in anoms and hulk herds in grav belts. Thats not what 0.0 is about. If you think it is, then you suck and are out of touch from real pvpers. Sitting in a 1000 man blob, black screened isnt pvp, its a byproduct of cowardice and disdain from pvp. Moving squishy carebears back into harms way is a good thing for pvp, and will encourage more small gang roaming parties.

TLDR: CCP should perhaps shift thier rare space band to more of a -.9 to -1.0 band should be a good bit better than it is now, fully upgraded. -.6 to -.89 same as it is now, and progressively worse afterwards. Also shift moon mineral requirements for t2 production, and flood the market with more moon minerals in each region, not just 3 regions near tribute again........ That alone will encourage regular pvp, in small gangs, medium gangs, and fleets from large alliances trying to bash each others moons, and spread the wealth to all alliances in eve.

Edit: Also I would like to add that on top of all of this, make it so out of alliance, you cant use a titan bridge, or jump bridge that doesnt belong to you. Also you cant titan bridge to a cyno not made by your corp/ alliance / alliance owned cyno beacon.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:49:00 - [618]
 

Originally by: BlondieBC
This change nerfs null sec, and does a relative high sec buff. This change will move more people back to income. CCP should have any null sec nerf balanced by a high sec nerf. Why not do one of the following:
1) Lower bounties, rewards, and LP of high sec missions and income by 25%.
2) Move all level 4 agents to low sec and null sec?
3) Limited the number of missions per agents per hour. For example, maybe one agent should only give a combined 15 missions per hour to all players.
4) Change loot table so no meta 3 or 4 loot is dropped in high sec.


Wow this is worse than Greyscale's ideas.

Nerfing games never works. You nerf to much you **** off to many people and you have a meltdown like SWG had when SOE burned it with the NGE.

They are in essence also nerfing high sec with their removing of agent quality. (Yay more wasted skill points). ......check Fanfest stuff if you don't believe me.

This is the cycle every game reaches, a series of nerfs and tweaks to existing game data to create a 'new' experience because they don't want to devote the resources necessary to create real new content.

I still contend that if they want a dynamic conflict zone they have to make it so the null sec systems can support hundreds of people. Until they can comfortably support 100 per system or more then you will always see these large empires.

The second thing they have to do is introduce new regions regularly. It keeps the game moving and nothing really changed dynamics as much as the introduction of the drone regions. Drone Regions were also well placed making what was an existing backwater...Geminate...a strategic chokepoint and the place of many battles and wars since. We need more of that. After its introduction there was wars over the drones for probably 2 years maybe 3 before they were finally consolidated. That's the kind of dynamic change you need. New regions leave the established groups mostly where they are, providing new outlets for those wanting to test the waters. You'd need some new rats of course, perhaps long lost tribes or maybe just maybe first contact with some alien species....

Reducing the income of players as they propose means the smaller/mid size alliances can never really aspire to unseat one of the big boys. They simply will never have the resources able to do so. Which means even if Grey's plan worked it would peter out in about 6 months after the shift occurs and new pets appear.

Moons need some changing but I'd just be happy to see Tech made so it can be made with alchemy. If you make moon depletion like some suggest you'll find in time that no one will invest in empire building if it can be gone at a drop of a hat.

More than anything EVE needs a big expansion even if rolled out in pieces that introduces a large number of new ships, equipment, etc. These will change strategic and tactical decisions.

Mine Fields (anchorable bubbles, damage by race time, Space Demolition skill needed)
Minelayer (Like current HICs but generate a bubble of mines, damage again by racial type)
Mine Sweeper (Creates a safe bubble inside a minefield...remember to raise its bubble first...smaller bubble)
EW Battleships (Why are the Caldari the only ones with a Battleship EW platform, surely the others would realize value of them)
Drone Screening Vessel (Armed with rapid firing rockets/guns etc creates a zone of damage in a bubble that only damages drones/fighters/fighter bombers)
Missile Screening Vessel (Similar to the DSV but damages missiles/torpedos in its bubble)
Heavy Stealth Bombers (Can carry multiple bomb launchers)
Subspace Disruption Fields (Webs in a buble)
Subspace Interdictors (like the warp DICs and HICs we have now just do web like effect)
etc

The only thing it takes is CCP devoting sufficient resources to create such content which sadly I don't think they've been willing to do the last couple of years.

Meeogi
Amarr
Lone Star Privateers
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:51:00 - [619]
 

I think ALL high end moon goo should come from WH space.

Any Guy
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:52:00 - [620]
 

Long time lurker, second time poster.


CCP stop thinking silly thoughts. No-one likes this idea.


jitadwella
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:53:00 - [621]
 

Originally by: Ace Frehley
What most of you whiners completly miss is that it cost to little to keep a large empire going.

If we look at NC for an example. The Rome of NC is Morhus Mihi. Thats the center of NC and where all the riches is going. They also have the military power of nc with lots of supercaps and so on.
To maintain their empire the cost is today ZERO. They move in smaller alliance who can live in the border regions and supply themself cuz of equal space. RAWR has the best moon probobly in the border egion as a fee to protect em. But that is not a major setback for the border alliances, they can rat like no tomorrow.

But look at the roman empire, the border regions of their empire just was a giant isksink. It costed them a fortune to keep those borderegions under control, the price to have the better more richer regions safe. It was cost/benefit situation. Dont proect the outer borders and risk their incomerich regions to get raided, or defend them and live with the cost. Same thing should be in EVE. It has to cost a fortune to keep a larger section of space going. Either RAWR has to pay for someone to live in a ****ty space, by sharing moons or allow them to rat in better places, or ignore tose regions and live with hostile forces live closer to them. Good to see CCP is going back from easy mode to hardmode.


RISE, SEV3RANCE, RISE AGAINST THE SHACKLES! FIGHT THE HORDES OF SUPERCARRIERS! YOUR HUBS AND DENS WILL COMFORT AND AID YOUR BATTLE-WEARY WARRIORS AT DAYSEND, SHOWERING THEM IN RIFTER HULLS!

(Seriously, am I the only one finding it ridiculously ironic that an NCdot of all people is saying that Pure Blind/Geminate residents can rise up and conquer Tribute?)

StuRyan
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:55:00 - [622]
 

Ma'an - another nerf, why cant they buff the thing and give us the isk needed to go pvp without grinding and grinding.

Or may be they could make it harder so that people can get caught in belts and anomolies and therefore hit and run gangs do have things to kill.

the problem is this, rats in systems are too easy, there should be more chance to get caught in the belt or anomolly and therefore increase small town pvp. atm there is no point in spending time warping to system to system becuase as soon as you enter said ratters are aligned and are away. now make it so ALL ratters are warp scrambled by rats and problem solved. This is "nerfing of cosmics" so that it is dependent on truesec is so full of BS it honestly is laughable Nobody fights over true sec. usually having a good true sec is a bonus but when the day comes to someone saying "im fighting [said system] fleet up boys we have a high true sec to win - get to **** you bell-end.

CCP ruined the game when you speed nerfed everything. You are on a loosing battle with this one and if it gets through good luck i think most people will be off to play another game that doesn't require quite the investment in time that this game does already.

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:01:00 - [623]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 26/03/2011 18:03:30
Originally by: StuRyan
Ma'an - another nerf, why cant they buff the thing and give us the isk needed to go pvp without grinding and grinding.

When you ask EVE players what makes EVE special "loss of assets upon death makes pvp meaningful" used to be a very common answer.

Nowadays most forum posters seem to be concerned to make the impact of pvp losses as small as possible.

Of course people are much more willing to pvp in some random WoW battleground where you respawn with full gear a few seconds after dying than in EVE where you have to spend a few hours grinding to replace your ship but is this really what EVE players want?

Why don't they just switch their pvp activities to sisi if they are so concerned about having to replace losses and unfair fights?

Nikgah Plz
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:06:00 - [624]
 

Originally by: Mya ElleTerego
Edited by: Mya ElleTerego on 26/03/2011 17:58:49

I will prolly get flamed in my alliance chat, as we live in in providence atm, but I think its a good idea.


Consider yourself flamedTwisted Evil

Paukinra
Gallente
Hard Rock Mining Co.
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:13:00 - [625]
 

Edited by: Paukinra on 26/03/2011 22:08:17
Originally by: Jaggins
Bad move.

Leave the crappy systems how they are, and buff rewards in the low truesec systems. That way you support alliances living in poor space while giving a reason for conflict.

Most of us hate ratting, we just do it to buy ships for PVP. Please don't make that harder.



This, my corp rents its system, we cant move and we are in -.19 so we will just get kicked out from 0.0 for not paying our rent. And will just got back to high sec running lvl4s for isk when i dont get enough isk i wont go pvp so will get bored and cancel my sub.

No, you cannot have my stuff

Rakamy
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:16:00 - [626]
 

This is all well and good but you should have done it with moons as well......that will really light some fires under alliances/corps.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:17:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Paukinra
Originally by: Jaggins
Bad move.

Leave the crappy systems how they are, and buff rewards in the low truesec systems. That way you support alliances living in poor space while giving a reason for conflict.

Most of us hate ratting, we just do it to buy ships for PVP. Please don't make that harder.



This, my corp rents its system, we cant move and we are in -.19 so we will just get kicked out form 0.0 for not paying our rent. And will just got back to high sec running lvl4s for isk when i dont get neough isk i wont go pvp so will get bored and cancel my sub.

No, you cannot have my stuff


This is a concern I believe, its almost like CCP doesn't understand how the game is played. Current small/medium alliances are renters or owe allegiance to other alliances. They fail to pay or live up to obligations the big boys kick them out.

If this is to much of a nerf hopefully the landlords will lower rents to help compensate.

Alana Gerardeau
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:18:00 - [628]
 

This is total crap, CCP. I'm fine with making the lower truesec systems more profitable, but don't undercut the rest of nullsec. As it is, players in 0.0 - -2.0 systems don't get lots of faction or officer spawns. If you take away havens and sanctums, then you'll kill everyone's isk earning potential out in null. The long term impact will be that more corps won't be able to afford to settle in nullsec.

StuRyan
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:26:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 26/03/2011 18:03:30
Originally by: StuRyan
Ma'an - another nerf, why cant they buff the thing and give us the isk needed to go pvp without grinding and grinding.

When you ask EVE players what makes EVE special "loss of assets upon death makes pvp meaningful" used to be a very common answer.

Nowadays most forum posters seem to be concerned to make the impact of pvp losses as small as possible.

Of course people are much more willing to pvp in some random WoW battleground where you respawn with full gear a few seconds after dying than in EVE where you have to spend a few hours grinding to replace your ship but is this really what EVE players want?

Why don't they just switch their pvp activities to sisi if they are so concerned about having to replace losses and unfair fights?


I think you may find most people will be pvping on sisi if that is your menta

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.03.26 18:47:00 - [630]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Utterly, utterly shameless CCP fellatio


Get ****ed.

Forcing people who hold bad 0.0 space to move to empire to get anywhere near the same income is not a good change. It means fewer people living in 0.0, which means fewer people able to respond when roaming gangs come through, and fewer incentives to go out roaming anyway (since there's nobody out there to shoot).


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