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Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.03.22 04:55:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Kalle Demos on 22/03/2011 04:56:22
Originally by: Imigo Montoya


The game mechanics don't promote XXX - human nature does that all by itself.


Funfact: The above quote can be said about EVERYTHING associated with humans, when dealing with any game mechanics, honestly do you even know what 'human nature' means?

Also if EVE was the only game out there, people may have believed your ******ed / generic reply, however since it isnt only the flying monkeys & sheeps will believe your bull****.

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.22 05:51:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Funfact: The above quote can be said about EVERYTHING associated with humans, when dealing with any game mechanics, honestly do you even know what 'human nature' means?

Also if EVE was the only game out there, people may have believed your ******ed / generic reply, however since it isnt only the flying monkeys & sheeps will believe your bull****.


Funfact: The plural of sheep is sheep.

Seriously though, human nature (ie, what it means to be human, how humans naturally think/act) guides game design considerably, but ultimately whatever mechanics are put in place will take second place to guide what players do than what they are inherently conditioned to do anyway.

One really cool aspect of EVE is the sandbox - giving people a persistent world to go explore and play around with, but ultimately they're not playing with the game, they're playing with each other. The mechanisms in place support this at every turn.

This is a social game where the content is provided by the players. If you don't like that there are plenty of "theme park" MMOs which guide players actions a lot more (and therefore aren't as susceptible to the effects of human nature), but they are artificial and arbitrary. Currently, EVE is neither of those things.

Adding game mechanisms to limit how players interact with each other (eg blobbing) will fundamentally change what EVE is, throwing the baby out with the bath water as it were.

I thought the previously posted summary would be enough to convey the gist of this message, but apparently not.

What might be nice is if you actually addressed the issues rather resorting to petty personal attacks. Is that too much to ask?

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.03.22 06:04:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Imigo Montoya
Originally by: Kalle Demos
Funfact: The above quote can be said about EVERYTHING associated with humans, when dealing with any game mechanics, honestly do you even know what 'human nature' means?

Also if EVE was the only game out there, people may have believed your ******ed / generic reply, however since it isnt only the flying monkeys & sheeps will believe your bull****.


meh




CCP dont change lowsec, because of human nature
CCP dont change FW, because of human nature
CCP dont change anything in EVE, because of human nature
CCP since everyone wants to survive just prevent ships from dying by making it impossible to kill ships / pods.

What I mean is, changes arent needed because of human nature, so therefore dont change because of human needs, make sense? No thought not :P

Imigo, guess what theres a difference between real life and make believe and theres a HUGE difference between need and want, know the difference and maybe you will understand why the game mechanics are at fault

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.22 06:45:00 - [124]
 

How lowsec works is a game mechanic and can be modified by CCP
How FW works is a game mechanic and can be modified by CCP
How Sov works is a game mechanic and can be modified by CCP
How Moon Mining works is a game mechanic and can be modified by CCP

Blobbing and number warfare (what your original complaint that I referenced was about) is not a game mechanic or an effect of game mechanics, it is an effect of human nature.

Try not to put words into other people's mouths just so you can argue a different point that they never made in the first place.

Originally by: Kalle Demos
the current mechanics promote blobbing and number warfare that makes it impossible todo anything WITHOUT huge numbers THIS is the problem.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.03.22 08:09:00 - [125]
 

Once again you have said 'human nature' and fail to see how saying that can be said about ANYTHING a person does, you may as well have said "players in eve do stuff because of human nature".

Originally by: Imigo Montoya
Blobbing and number warfare (what your original complaint that I referenced was about) is not a game mechanic or an effect of game mechanics, it is an effect of human nature.


Then do explain oh wise one why blobbing aka number warfare in huge 2k+ numbers doesnt happen in hisec, why WHs arent blobbed with extreme numbers and why you will only hear about huge mega numbers in 0.0

You can try and word it to benefit your cause, but it makes no difference, but dont think for a second anyone is going to fall for your "number warfare happens because we are all human and need to survive and it has nothing todo with the mechanics of 0.0" and expect people to believe it.

In a game where risk / reward are balanced with every action, explain how 0.0 mega NAPs can blue everything within 60 jumps, get numbers past 2000 (just with half of their coalition) and not have any penalties for having 55k people NAPed, you guys complain about hi-sec mission runners all the time but the fact of the matter is, you are no different to them.

In an internet spaceship game, human needs arent always taken into consideration, otherwise you would have had to FEED your NAP train, now thats human nature too. Are you saying to CCP that you want to age, have hunger, get ill in game? I mean if we have to include everything in human nature we would have to include those, which is fine since im all for a NC famine.

Fact of the matter is, it is the mechanics that ALLOW huge mega to form and why 0.0 is only affected by gigantic mega NAPs.

What needs to change in the mechanics is timers and sov warfare (claiming a system), atm timers allow coalitions alot of time to form and blob in numbers only another coalition can match, Sov warfare focuses on one system where battles end in blob vs blob vs structure.

If sov warfare and timers were changed to make it faster in claiming a system and involved alot of movement (no jump bridging to a random system via a titan then sitting there for 10 hours isnt considered movement).

There will be people who say "well the NAP wouldnt break it will just have alot of mini fleets everywhere", while this is true EVERYONE else can manage mini fleets, only NC and DRF can manage 2000+ in numbers.

NAPs would be NAPs and NOT "hey we should blue because meatshields are best friends, yo", I mean the whole idea of a NAP is non-aggression but all we see are NAPs being renters and pets, there as cannon fodder.

Oh and one last thing, CCP and the previous CSM including Vuk Lau all stated in the last CSM minutes that the mechanics in 0.0 were in short ****, the warfare was limited to shooting structures so I cant really see why you are trying to convince people number warfare naturally happens and CCP cant do anything about it, especially when it is an obvious problem.

TLDR-- Blobbing happens and someone will always get blobbed, number warfare (numbers > numbers > numbers) happens because of ****ty mechanics that limits movement, reduces warfare to structure and forces new alliances to pick a side rather than be independent. Timers allow MEGA HUGE numbers to form, they also make the enemy focus on one system, THEY ALSO prevent dead alliances (which have been dead for weeks) from dying, are you really telling people that the mechanics arenít at fault here.

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.22 08:57:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
:words:


I'm going to attempt to write this whole post without using the b word because its used pretty consistantly to mean 'any fleet bigger than what I can form'. But first I'm going to crosspost this from another thread because it seems pretty applicable here.

Originally by: Yeep
What size of engagement do you think should be the maximum before bringing more people is not effective? Is it coincidentally the size of fleet you personally are able to field or should we extend that all the way down to 1 person. That way each alliance could put forward one level 85 spaceship pilot champion to fight in honourable combat in an instanced arena to decide who gets to keep space.


Bringing more people needs to work because otherwise you end up in a game where only people in T3 ships with massive entitlement complexes are allowed to PvP.

Wormholes and highsec aren't fought over by large fleets because anyone with the organisation to form one is out in 0.0. Wormholes also don't stay connected to the same place long enough and aren't able to support more than a couple of people at once.

Originally by: Kalle Demos
In an internet spaceship game, human needs arent always taken into consideration, otherwise you would have had to FEED your NAP train, now thats human nature too. Are you saying to CCP that you want to age, have hunger, get ill in game? I mean if we have to include everything in human nature we would have to include those, which is fine since im all for a NC famine.


Human nature != biological needs

There are very few people who think the current sov mechanics aren't broken, but giant coalitions existed before Dominion and will continue to exist long after its fixed. You are exactly the kind of person I was concerned about being a CSM candidate in Trebor's thread. You're mad because your 7 man corp can't claim space that a 5000 man alliance wants so you're willing to accept solutions which massively compromise the vision of EvE because they also further your 'waaa people have more friends than me its not fair' agenda.

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.22 09:36:00 - [127]
 

You really must stop putting words in other people's mouths and arguing with points that haven't been made.

I've never complained about high-sec mission runners, I've never said the mechanics of 0.0 are perfect, and I've never suggested that human needs should be modelled in the game. You seem to be asserting that I have, and providing counter points to that.

I also haven't said that CCP can't do anything about blobbing/number warfare, I said that EVE is a game where content is provided by the players, and preventing that (ie arbitrarily preventing players from forming groups) would make it more of a "Theme Park" MMO, which it currently isn't and shouldn't be.

What you have said, is that "the current mechanics promote blobbing and number warfare".

What I have said is that it's not the game mechanics that promote blobbing and number warfare, it's human nature. You can change the mechanics all you want, but people will always find a way to get safety in numbers (due to human nature) if that's what they want (which it seems they do).

Don't go confusing human nature with human need, they are quite different things.

Why doesn't it happen in high sec you ask? One possible explanation is that people in highsec don't need to defend their access to their territory (it's not really theirs as such), the game does that for them.

Why doesn't blobbing/numbers warfare happen in Wormholes? Well that would be assuming that it doesn't, but to humour you if you look at the QEN, you'll see that less people live in wormholes than anywhere else. Also, moving around wormholes is inherently a lot more arduous (no gates). These points could go some way to explaining the perception that WHs don't get blobbed so much. Although try asking the targets of AHARM whether or not they got blobbed...

So again, please try to argue the points I have made.

Gabriel Michelson
Posted - 2011.03.22 10:07:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Michelson on 22/03/2011 10:08:23
Originally by: Kalle Demos
:Stuff about blobs being evil:

That's your gripe?

You don't like that folks that have large numbers of allies can bring their full force to bear?

Welcome to MMO's
Welcome to the real world.

As much as blobs #### me off when I'm solo roaming?
Meh.
Fleets happen.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.03.22 11:44:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Kalle Demos on 22/03/2011 11:47:11
Imigo I replied to exactly what you said, I even quoted you on what I was replying to, I cant see how im putting words in your mouth when my reply WAS about mechanics and human nature.

As for the people saying blob, if you bothered to read what I said (which obviously you never) I already mentioned that blobs will happen and will continue to, its number warfare where strategy is dependant on numbers > numbers > numbers and I guess "who can get into the system the first and not lag out and die".

Blobbing and number warfare are two different things :P

Once you figured out the difference between the two let me know, after all blobbing is being outnumbered and number warfare is exploiting mechanics so that you are always ahead in numbers and your strategy is as simple as that, 0.0 favours this because of timers & structure bashing.

I made it perfectly clear what my point was :P

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.22 13:52:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos

Once you figured out the difference between the two let me know, after all blobbing is being outnumbered and number warfare is exploiting mechanics so that you are always ahead in numbers and your strategy is as simple as that, 0.0 favours this because of timers & structure bashing.



Timers exist to prevent smaller entities without 23 hour coverage having their space taken while they're asleep. Going on a crusade against large alliances then bringing up timers really highlights how much you don't know what you're talking about.

Originally by: Kalle Demos
I made it perfectly clear what my point was :P


You really didn't. Your post descended into almost unreadable white noise before the end.

Gabriel Michelson
Posted - 2011.03.22 18:18:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
As for the people saying blob, if you bothered to read what I said (which obviously you never) I already mentioned that blobs will happen and will continue to, its number warfare where strategy is dependant on numbers > numbers > numbers and I guess "who can get into the system the first and not lag out and die".

Blobbing and number warfare are two different things :P

Once you figured out the difference between the two let me know, after all blobbing is being outnumbered and number warfare is exploiting mechanics so that you are always ahead in numbers and your strategy is as simple as that, 0.0 favours this because of timers & structure bashing.

I made it perfectly clear what my point was :P


:LOL:

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Then do explain oh wise one why blobbing aka number warfare in huge 2k+ numbers doesnt happen in hisec, why WHs arent blobbed with extreme numbers and why you will only hear about huge mega numbers in 0.0

You do know what AKA means, don't you?

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.03.22 18:34:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
number warfare is exploiting mechanics


Not really. Having more friends than you do is not "exploiting" anything.

If you must have issues with 0.0 people, take issue with the vocal portion of them that are arrogant self-entitled ****heads who think that 0.0 blob warfare is the only way to play the game and anyone who just wants to make a quiet living missioning in Empire or mining or whatever the hell is a "idiot pubbie".

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.22 18:41:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Imigo Montoya on 22/03/2011 18:41:20
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: Kalle Demos
number warfare is exploiting mechanics


Not really. Having more friends than you do is not "exploiting" anything.

If you must have issues with 0.0 people, take issue with the vocal portion of them that are arrogant self-entitled ****heads who think that 0.0 blob warfare is the only way to play the game and anyone who just wants to make a quiet living missioning in Empire or mining or whatever the hell is a "idiot pubbie".


Interesting observation by Raph Koster (Ultima Online/Star Wars Galaxies) that 40% of players don't like PvP. This is an estimated and general (ie not specific to any game) value. EVE still has it's appeal to these player types, which in a primarily PvP game is quite an impressive design feat.


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