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Amaroq Dricaldari
Amarr
Vengeance Industrial Militia
Posted - 2011.03.18 18:09:00 - [1]
 

Just a roleplaying-response to make people realize the traffic problem in Jita:

Ships have been crashing into eachother constantly, especially near stargates and in asteroid belts, as well as around stations, and this has been a problem to hundreds if not thousands of people, and various signals have been disrupting people's minds from transferring to their clones, or causing them to be sent to another person's clone, or even another person's living body. Because of this Concord has started a program to reduce traffic in Jita. Please donate to support it. Thank you for reading this report.

- Concord Militia Patrol

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.18 18:26:00 - [2]
 

Jita became THE market hub because the superhighway gates to Yulai were removed.

There will always be ONE central hub. It can be Jita, it can be somewhere else. But the market demands it.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.18 20:38:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Pirokobo
Jita became THE market hub because the superhighway gates to Yulai were removed.

There will always be ONE central hub. It can be Jita, it can be somewhere else. But the market demands it.


^^ This
Trade hubs will exist, its part of the market dynamic.. cripple Jita and the hub (and problems) will just move

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.19 02:30:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Pirokobo on 19/03/2011 02:31:06
Amaroq you can think of it like the futures markets. Jita is the NYMEX. Amarr/Tash-Murkon, Oursalert, and Rens are like the MGEX, KCBoT, and CBoT.

The market system will naturally create hubs. One central hub, and several distributed regional hubs. This arrangement is not strictly out of convenience but rather an emergent architectural feature of virtually all trading systems. If you remove the central market, another will emerge, simply because the market has participants who will travel to the busiest market to receive the best price.

Gehen Sealbreaker
Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.19 11:27:00 - [5]
 

As you may know, I'm the CSM6 candidate the most attentive to the roleplayer's voices, and such a use of it makes me sad.

I won't troll this topic into turning into one about godmoding and the way RP shouldn't be used as a way to present concerns that have, let's face it, nothing to do with RP.

To speak of the underlying "problem" of trade hubs, I think it won't be easy to nerf them. it's very possible, even with the market needs for them - a rise in trade costs based upon stations' hangars free capacity, meaning increased costs for market orders in busy stations, would pretty much achieve that, and with a valid RP reason nonetheless.

Now, is it really needed ? Since the removal of stargates highways, the main trade hub have switched to Jita, and several secondary hubs appeared in all the main empires. Traders love 'em, and while one can dislike the crowded stargates, hisec pirates, and local scamming logorrhoea, they will continue to exist.
If elected as a CSM member, I'll... do absolutely nothing about trade hubs unless the situation evolves vastly.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.19 12:51:00 - [6]
 

There IS a way to prevent market to create one big main hub like Jita :

Increase taxes, broker fees, etc.

Make your nearby market interesting again because it has almost no fees.


(Or just increase travel cost but... Would be a lot harder)

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.19 15:15:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Pirokobo on 19/03/2011 15:24:51
Originally by: Alsyth
Increase taxes, broker fees, etc.


If CCP does things to Jita, everyone will fly their stuff to New Caldari, Niyabainen, Perimeter, and Urlen, distributing the amount of stuff being sold from one system into five.

If prices haven't dropped sufficiently at that point, then the market would migrate into The Citadel, which sits directly between Domain (Amarr) and The Forge (Jita), and expand to fill stations as needed based on price pressure.

The Citadel REGION index would replace the Jita SYSTEM index as the central market of the EVE economy, due to the availability of stations and proximity to two previous hub systems.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.19 17:25:00 - [8]
 

Still better than an overcrowded Jita in my opinion.

And I think it would greatly improve secondary hubs in other regions:
people who nowadays make a trip to Jita every week or so to sell their stuff when they live near Dodixie, Rens, Amarr, etc. will probably just sell it in the hub nearby instead of wandering in Citadel in their freighter to find the best price. Ah and add more taxes to ranged buy orders, it would be logical.

I'm not an economist, but I know there are ways to weaken Jita. I'm honest though, I don't know all the effets they will have.

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 02:05:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Pirokobo on 20/03/2011 02:25:31
Originally by: Alsyth
And I think it would greatly improve secondary hubs in other regions:
people who nowadays make a trip to Jita every week or so to sell their stuff when they live near Dodixie, Rens, Amarr, etc. will probably just sell it in the hub nearby instead of wandering in Citadel in their freighter to find the best price.


No no, no no no, you're not getting what I'm saying.

If CCP only does a focused, specific nerf against Jita alone, it will change nothing the Jita market will move into one of the immediate neighbor systems around Jita.

If they do taxes and stuff then it will hurt every hub and the hub will become the Citadel because people will want to get onto the central market index without having to overcrowd one station and thus incur fees. But the only way CCP will kill hubs entirely is to eliminate regional markets and make the market system universe-wide.

Otherwise there will always be one place, be it a station (4-4), a system (Jita), or a region (The Forge or The Citadel) that is regarded as the "central" market by all the market actors.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.20 05:01:00 - [10]
 

some of you are not getting it..
really what the hell is the problem with jita...
its over crowded sure.. so what.. sometimes you have to wait a few minutes to jump in.. so what.. if CCP does Anything to nerf jita.. (as already mentioned) the trade hub will organically move on its own.. you will create a never ending cycle of nerf/unerf in attempt to do what?? avoid crowds? see a shink..

Eldaec
Posted - 2011.03.20 10:48:00 - [11]
 

If overcrowding is such a ****ing problem for you, move to Amarr. The market there is perfectly adequate unless you are a high end trader who specifically needs the volume of trading that goes on in Jita.

I have solved your problem, please send me isk as I am a problem solver. tia.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.20 15:36:00 - [12]
 

You do not understand.

I'm not asking for a Jita-specific nerf, but for a dynamical system which would make this kind of super-hub uninteresting.

A dynamical taxe system which gets higher when the system/station is overcrowded, or have too much orders, (kind of like office rent right now) will really make the "hub" system less interesting.

Citadel market might stay the main reference, but if its market is spread in the whole region, a lot less people will come and buy things there. You don't want to wander through the whole region to put everything in your freighter. The effet will still be a repartition from Jita/Citadel onto smaller hubs.

The market would be a lot more complex, people will have to think instead of just "Jita" everything. Local small hubs will become a lot more interesting.





And the OP wanted some RP answer : it makes perfect sens RP-wise, markets in big cities have more taxes than smaller local ones, there is no "center of the world" market-wise, buit lots of big hubs (big cities) with quite high taxes (Paris, Tokyo, LA, NY, whatever), and your local market where everything is cheaper, but you have less choice.

Introduce some dynamic fees, and you'll have a market much more logical RP and economically-wise.

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 15:42:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Pirokobo on 20/03/2011 16:06:25
Jita's Success Explained:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotelling%27s_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect

Originally by: Alsyth


A dynamical taxe system which gets higher when the system/station is overcrowded, or have too much orders, (kind of like office rent right now) will really make the "hub" system less interesting.

Citadel market might stay the main reference, but if its market is spread in the whole region, a lot less people will come and buy things there. You don't want to wander through the whole region to put everything in your freighter. The effet will still be a repartition from Jita/Citadel onto smaller hubs.


Not if they can help it no, people rather prefer to dock up at 4-4 and leave with everything they need in hand.

I'm just expanding on the idea you've pitched out. People will want to concentrate their goods for sale in one central market, as an emergent behavior stemming from the effects I have listed above. If CCP makes it infeasible for that central location to be a single station, they will expand their wares out to consume the other available stations.

If the cost is still too steep, they will expand again into the adjecent systems, consuming all stations there.

If the cost is still too steep, they will expand again into more systems, further away while still staying on the same market index as Jita. It is at this moment that The Citadel becomes more logical then Domain or The Forge because if you start having to use stations two or more jumps away from the primary market hub to get affordable listing prices, suddenly it makes more sense to ditch Amarr and Jita entirely and build a minimal along the road between them, because not only does it connect Jita to Amarr, but it also contains Uedema, which is on the road to both Rens and Oursulert.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Uedema, and the arrow between Jita and Niarja (but not Niarja itself) are both The Citadel. If CCP makes individual systems infeasible as hubs, that's where the trade will go.

And it won't necessarily reduce travel through Jita either. The map above reflects the SAFEST, SHORTEST roads between the hubs, because pubbies are motivated by fear of suicide piracy. Jita almost literally sits at the center of the trade universe if only pay attention to system security status.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.20 16:36:00 - [14]
 

Very nice graph, and extremely interesting information overall :)

I rather agree with everything you said, but I think you missed something:
You pointed out that people wanted the safest, shortest routes... But they also want the easiest and fastest ways to trade. Having to move to a group of distant systems, jump in different ones depending on what you want to buy or sell... It's a pain.

Right now, everything you have to do is "dock Jita 4-4".
Just splitting Jita market in two or 3 systems would already have a huge negative impact for lots of people, who can't be bothered separating their loot or produced modules. That and the taxes will make them consider their local market more, and I really think with a good tweak you could have a more coherent market overall, with some regional hubs of equal importance with rather high taxes and a very elaborated market, like Jita now, but with less traffic to keep taxes lower, and many smaller hubs with a simplier market, but no taxes and better prices.



Would be a lot better RP-wise in my opinion.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.20 16:48:00 - [15]
 

what again are we trying to fix? whats wrong with jita?

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 19:53:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Alsyth
Would be a lot better RP-wise in my opinion.


So you are proposing that we roleplay an economy that defies the natural, emergent behavior of economies; behavior that stems from real psychological factors influencing the market actors?

Why would we do dat?

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.20 20:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Pirokobo
Originally by: Alsyth
Would be a lot better RP-wise in my opinion.


So you are proposing that we roleplay an economy that defies the natural, emergent behavior of economies; behavior that stems from real psychological factors influencing the market actors?

Why would we do dat?


In real life broker fees and other taxes are driven by natural behaviours, in Eve that's not the case, turning the market in what we know : Jita as the center of everything, the rest for people who don't want to travel (either because it costs too much money, or time, or because of the risk).
Dynamic taxes and broker fees would just be a mean to turn the market into something more realistic, where travel time/cost is not the ONLY issue people face.

Jita as it is pleases lots of people because it's easy (0.0 alliances, for instance, who can just come to Jita, buy and sell everything without even having to think about market dynamics). But I'd like Eve economy to be more challenging.

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 20:38:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Alsyth
In real life broker fees and other taxes are driven by natural behaviours


No, on the contrary those are the only things which are fixed in a market and driven by policy rather then by the choices of the actors.

Nowhere in your :words: have you proposed an actual fix you've just given the vague impression that you're butthurt over how things are. I'm guessing you're either tired of getting suicided or tired of having to fly back and forth from whatever hovel you've chosen to squat in because nobody buys in your backwater region.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.20 23:16:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Pirokobo
Originally by: Alsyth
In real life broker fees and other taxes are driven by natural behaviours


No, on the contrary those are the only things which are fixed in a market and driven by policy rather then by the choices of the actors.

Nowhere in your :words: have you proposed an actual fix you've just given the vague impression that you're butthurt over how things are. I'm guessing you're either tired of getting suicided or tired of having to fly back and forth from whatever hovel you've chosen to squat in because nobody buys in your backwater region.


Keep calm Shocked

We musn't live in the same world... In mine, there are fees on everything you buy, and these fees change by a huge margin depending on the country you live in, for instance. Taxes differ from a product to another, depending on what the government decides. All over Europe, gaz has extremely high taxes: not the case in the US or in Arabia. In France, tobacco is twice as taxed as in neighbouring countries. Our value added tax change depending on the country, too.


Aren't these actors, when you look a a worldwide scope ? Of course they are ! And why woulndn't Jita govenrment decide they have a higher tax because they want to, and they can, and it will replenish their wallets ?
The fact they are NPC doesn't mean we should not try to make them a little more realistic, complex... and fun !


In fact, I used to trade, and I stopped because trading needs more "Jita order update bot" than brain right now.


Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 23:34:00 - [20]
 

There is more to it than just Jita. Sure Jita has become the big market place (by natural processes, not by CCP making it so), but there are regional trade hubs too. I'm not just talking about Amarr, Ourselaert, Rens etc, but in 0.0 too (H-W in Tribute, G8AD in Cloud Ring, YA0 in Deklein, C3-OY in Tenerifis to name a few) with local alliance based trade areas too.

Mission hubs are another thing to consider - drag some ammo/drones to places that have a lot of good level 4 agents, even if they're only 3 jumps from Jita, and you'll make a tidy profit.

The only thing higher taxes in big trade hubs will do is act as an ISK sink, unless the tax level is cripplingly high which would just be a big PitA and not much fun.

Jonathon Silence
Thorny Rose Enterprises
Posted - 2011.03.21 01:28:00 - [21]
 

Creating an artificial tax on the Market in Jita will not fix the problem (if in fact there is a problem).

As for your assertion that 'big markets' move to a lower taxed area, that is crap .. really big markets turn to the location they are in and say, give us cheaper tax or we go somewhere else. The location then realises that they have come to rely on the tax income and can not afford to lose it.

Look at all the largest cities and see how they started.

London : Trade center for England
Paris : Confluence of a number of trade routes in Europe
Constantinople/Istanbul : Meeting point of European and Middle-eastern trade routes
Singapore : Trade Centre
Hong-Kong : Trade Centre

Trade/Market Hubs are a natural progression in Human evolution dynamics. We are inherently lazy creatures and if we can have our needs satified in 1 place rather than 10 then that is where we will got, just look at the success of the hyper-stores like Wal-mart, Target, Ikea etc these are just commercial versions of the same human dynamic.

Now in EVE the Empires do not bid for a share of the tax income, but if we suddenly started putting taxes on the market hubs people would find a way to avoid this in a way to that still meets the human need.

If the crowd in Jita annoys you then just use Red Frog (I think that is their name) the freight hauling alliance.

In actual fact it is proven that people will pay a premium for convenience, so even if Jita was a couple of percent more expensive than other markets, because it has everything I want I will still go there.

Market hubs are natural, from an in-game point of view the only thing that will break them appart is an automated Interbus that will ship to anywhere in empire cheap and a global market that shows all trades. Then it would not matter where I brought it from as I could have it all shipped to a single location for my convenience.


Jowdra
Amarr
GalTech Shipyards
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:55:00 - [22]
 

What we need is a methos to disable players who go about griefing in these hub systems, regardless of standings players should not be able to activate any weapon of destruction. If these systems were conisdered safe havens then trade would generate a safe area for thos wishing to make money, instead places like jita are crowded and filled full of criminals all wanting to scam the first player who walks through the station door. we need more power over the policing in these hub systems.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.04.21 01:10:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jowdra
What we need is a methos to disable players who go about griefing in these hub systems, regardless of standings players should not be able to activate any weapon of destruction. If these systems were conisdered safe havens then trade would generate a safe area for thos wishing to make money, instead places like jita are crowded and filled full of criminals all wanting to scam the first player who walks through the station door. we need more power over the policing in these hub systems.


Wow. You really went to the effort of necro'ing this thread for THAT pile of ****?

GOOD JOB BRO

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2011.04.22 09:39:00 - [24]
 

Make Hi-sec systems lowsec when they regularly hit 500 or over for a week.

If you want a role playing reason say it's because Concord can't cope with the sher volume of traffic or the corporations that have the market hubs in their stations aren't paying enough tax to have effective policing!

That would shake it up!




Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.04.22 15:19:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Alsyth
Very nice graph, and extremely interesting information overall :)

I rather agree with everything you said, but I think you missed something:
You pointed out that people wanted the safest, shortest routes... But they also want the easiest and fastest ways to trade. Having to move to a group of distant systems, jump in different ones depending on what you want to buy or sell... It's a pain.


Bingo, it's a pain for sellers and buyers, and you want to implement this? I do not like you sir, not as a buyer, and not as a seller, and not as a role player.


 

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