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Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.18 02:58:00 - [1]
 

I have no idea how this would actually pan out...market forcs etc are beyond my feeble brain. (I once went to the market sub-forum....I swear they were talking about a different game!)
Anyway, what would happen, in your opinion, if:

Isk payouts for, missions, bounties, etc (ie isk that originates from NPC's) and LP payouts too were lowered, and drop rates of loot increased?
LP stores would have their prices cut too (some are already ludicrous!)

My theory is we all have nicer stuffs in our ships, Dread Gurista Invuls would be 40 mill, instead of 450 mill, but we'd have less isk to buy them with.
So if we find a module we can use, we would more likely make use of it, than sell it.

There'd be less isk sloshing about, and more nice things to have, the market would be less important, item trading might become more prevalent.

Now, that's just me brainstorming, I really have no idea what the actual end result would be, but I imagine it would be a good thing, however, there may well be a dozen things I haven't considered or taken into account.

Would more people mission, or less?
If the nicer null/lo sec drops increased, but less cash given, would there be more movement in and out of lo/null sec as people come to market more often?

...thoughts?


Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:02:00 - [2]
 

If you couldn't follow the MD discussions what makes you think your theory would not miss something pretty obvious?

Alotta Baggage
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:02:00 - [3]
 

When I started playing Hulks were close to 1b isk

Cal Stantson
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:05:00 - [4]
 

You'd end up with massive deflation and crash every market in the game.

Because there would be less money, the money people had would increase in value. The longer they held on to it, the more it would be worth. This would be an incentive to save rather than to spend, which means less stuff would be bought and the economy would crash.

You're basically proposing "Great Depression 2: IN SPACE!!!"

Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
Hav0k.
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cal Stantson
You'd end up with massive deflation and crash every market in the game.

Because there would be less money, the money people had would increase in value. The longer they held on to it, the more it would be worth. This would be an incentive to save rather than to spend, which means less stuff would be bought and the economy would crash.

You're basically proposing "Great Depression 2: IN SPACE!!!"


But in EVE, the economy doesn't "crash" when people stop buying...the orders just sit there and people keep on doing everything they were doing before. Everyone also has access to money printing factories: mission bounties and insurance.

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Cal Stantson
You'd end up with massive deflation and crash every market in the game.

Because there would be less money, the money people had would increase in value. The longer they held on to it, the more it would be worth. This would be an incentive to save rather than to spend, which means less stuff would be bought and the economy would crash.

You're basically proposing "Great Depression 2: IN SPACE!!!"


Firstly:
You equating real world economic with a game.

People don't need isk to eat, or buy shelter, they use it to buy commodities, almost everyone of which can be manufactured, mined, or found in game.
Secondly:
Most of the isk in game comes from value-adding, buying materials to use to create more advanced items, to sell for more total isk than you started with, the actual injection of isk from ratting bounties and mission payouts is relatively small...there would be a gradual reduction in the price for loot-only modules, as the availability of them started to increase.
I don't see a catastrophic market crash at all, sorry...

Cal Stantson
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:37:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Hieronimus Rex
Originally by: Cal Stantson
You'd end up with massive deflation and crash every market in the game.

Because there would be less money, the money people had would increase in value. The longer they held on to it, the more it would be worth. This would be an incentive to save rather than to spend, which means less stuff would be bought and the economy would crash.

You're basically proposing "Great Depression 2: IN SPACE!!!"


But in EVE, the economy doesn't "crash" when people stop buying...the orders just sit there and people keep on doing everything they were doing before. Everyone also has access to money printing factories: mission bounties and insurance.


If the orders are just sitting there, doing nothing, not getting bought, then where's the incentive to keep producing?

As for the ISK facucets, OP was planning on reducing them dramatically. The enormous deflation will still happen.


m3rb3aSt
Minmatar
Advanced Component Research Enterprise
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:44:00 - [8]
 

what if isk was removed and corped created their own currencies.

for instance when goonswarm uses the DONG as their currency, it would be backed by the tritanium standard!

Cal Stantson
Posted - 2011.03.18 03:54:00 - [9]
 


Quote:
Firstly:
You equating real world economic with a game.People don't need isk to eat, or buy shelter, they use it to buy commodities, almost everyone of which can be manufactured, mined, or found in game.

The problem is that they need the Isk to do anything in the game. You need to keep buying ships to PvP, you need to keep buying ammo, drones, whatnot for PvE. You won't die if you don't spend money, but you won't be able to do much either and that's as good as in EVE.


Quote:
Secondly:
Most of the isk in game comes from value-adding, buying materials to use to create more advanced items, to sell for more total isk than you started with,
But what if the prices at which you can sell your goods are falling, as they would be if you reduced the amount of Isk coming into the game? Where;s the incentive to trade?

Quote:
the actual injection of isk from ratting bounties and mission payouts is relatively small...there would be a gradual reduction in the price for loot-only modules, as the availability of them started to increase.


Where's this gradual decrease? You were talking about a 10x reduction in prices. As soon as people realize this is the eventual aim prices will plummet there really fast.

Quote:
I don't see a catastrophic market crash at all, sorry...

Unless you completely restructure the game you're going to end up with a painfuldepression. If you do it right then the economy might eventually adjust, but what would be the point? Rare modules would still be little used, not because the price was too high in old ISK terms, but because they're rare compared to other resources and are valued highly. Increasing drop rates would work to improve use, like with the y-t8, but there's no reason why removing Isk from the game would particularly help.

On top of that you're increasing the advantages that already rich players have. If a billion ISK used to be a fortnight's work before the crash it's now nearly five months.

I mean that's just the beginning, there's all sorts of other awful effects as well.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.03.18 04:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Yxalitis
what would happen, in your opinion, if Isk payouts for, missions, bounties, etc (ie isk that originates from NPC's) and LP payouts too were lowered, and drop rates of loot increased?

Existing ISK would get more valuable, stuff would get cheaper, we'd hit the insurance exchange rate again and CCP would be forced to lower ship payout once again (maybe once, maybe twice, maybe several times).
Everybody would act as if they just had their wallet ISK multiplied by some factor while earning rates would have remained the same... because in practice that's more or less the end effect when things restabilize.
In other words, deflation.

Whoever was holding ISK would be filthy rich... whoever was mostly knee-deep in non-loot assets and light on ISK however would have been left behind mostly unaffected (unless he managed to liquidate assets into ISK fast as the market prices plunged downwards immediately after the patch)... but whoever had mostly just loot assets would get completely screwed over.

Quote:
My theory is we all have nicer stuffs in our ships, Dread Gurista Invuls would be 40 mill, instead of 450 mill, but we'd have less isk to buy them with. So if we find a module we can use, we would more likely make use of it, than sell it.

Probably, but I fail to see the benefit in heavily ramping up the pimp factor on ships.

Quote:
There'd be less isk sloshing about, and more nice things to have, the market would be less important, item trading might become more prevalent.

That makes absolutely no sense.
Why would you want to trade items when you can easily get what you want from the market, and the easiest way to make ISK is to sell stuff you're not using on the market ?
People don't switch to barter systems just because things got cheaper.

Quote:
I really have no idea what the actual end result would be, but I imagine it would be a good thing

Extremely doubtful.

Quote:
If the nicer null/lo sec drops increased, but less cash given, would there be more movement in and out of lo/null sec as people come to market more often?

Actually, probably less often, since the per-looted-wreck value would be lower and people tend to go to empire for market purposes either on a regular basis (which would not be affected) or on a "at X ISK value" basis (which would mean going less often).
You just admitted not a few paragraphs ago that people would be more likely to just use the items themselves instead of bothering to sell them... not by much, but still.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.03.18 05:47:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Alotta Baggage
When I started playing Hulks were close to 1b isk


I remember cap recharger II being sold for 20m+ And flying a battleship was a feat.
lvl 3 missions was the highest lvl mission and no fancy LP store. Just an offer for soem faction item from the agent at random.

Best miningship was the Apoc back then.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.18 13:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
When I started playing Hulks were close to 1b isk


I remember cap recharger II being sold for 20m+ And flying a battleship was a feat.
lvl 3 missions was the highest lvl mission and no fancy LP store. Just an offer for soem faction item from the agent at random.

Best miningship was the Apoc back then.


I remember when a computer was a wooden crate with a chinaman in it

Aderata Nonkin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:34:00 - [13]
 

I'm laughing so loudly from all you wannabe economists that I can't drink more of my afternoon coffee for a while. How about you lot read up some basic concepts in regards to economy and then come here and talk, mmkay?

It's not as easy as saying "LOL it's a gmea!" and then pretend like everything would work out fine. The game is a sandbox, no magic fairie will come and save your bacon when it's cooked in the fryer. Just saying.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:30:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
When I started playing Hulks were close to 1b isk


I remember cap recharger II being sold for 20m+ And flying a battleship was a feat.
lvl 3 missions was the highest lvl mission and no fancy LP store. Just an offer for soem faction item from the agent at random.

Best miningship was the Apoc back then.


I remember when a computer was a wooden crate with a chinaman in it



Quote of the day :)

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:50:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Lt Angus

I remember when a computer was a wooden crate with a chinaman in it



AHHHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA LaughingLaughingLaughing

you just made me spit out my soda...through my nose LaughingLaughingLaughing

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:51:00 - [16]
 

Isn't the absolute lack of economic understanding just awesome!

And to think, these people probably vote in their respective countries. Rolling Eyes

But if you think deflation will be of any benefit, here is the reality.

Quote:
Dread Gurista Invuls would be 40 mill, instead of 450 mill


And you'll have to work just as hard for that 40 mill, as you worked for the 450 mil today. Your real income isn't going to change.

The fact that people don't understand this boggles my mind.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:56:00 - [17]
 

Surely npc drop rates need reduced not boosted.....Neutral T1 industry is dead from t1 loot drops, low meta prices are often sub t1 thanks to massive oversupply, some high meta mods are so cheap thanks to supply that they make the t2 equivelent items worthless to produce (meta 4 ecm or 1600 plates for example), all are so over-supplied to the extent that most are reprocessed, thereby deflating mineral prices for miners.

Damiez
Amarr
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:58:00 - [18]
 

I think CCP should reduce the cost of Petrol prices whilst they devalue the ISK...

Goose99
Posted - 2011.03.18 16:03:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Doddy
Surely npc drop rates need reduced not boosted.....Neutral T1 industry is dead from t1 loot drops, low meta prices are often sub t1 thanks to massive oversupply, some high meta mods are so cheap thanks to supply that they make the t2 equivelent items worthless to produce (meta 4 ecm or 1600 plates for example), all are so over-supplied to the extent that most are reprocessed, thereby deflating mineral prices for miners.


-There is no t1 industry.
-T0 industry will always be dead and stay dead.
-There are no miners, just bots.
-Yes, bots should be gimped.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.03.18 20:35:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: m3rb3aSt
what if isk was removed and corped created their own currencies.

for instance when goonswarm uses the DONG as their currency, it would be backed by the tritanium standard!


Alliance run currencies backed by assets would be awesome. Do want.

Pity theres no way (I can think of) to make it unexploitable.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2011.03.19 01:38:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Aderata Nonkin
save your bacon when it's cooked in the fryer. Just saying.


I love deep fried bacon Very Happy


 

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