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Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:00:00 - [31]
 

Alsyth, your comments are base on philosophy, and i do not feel this is a good place for a philosophical debate. While i do not directly oppose what you have said, i do feel there is some flaw to that logic.

The one piece that i think is relevant is that while you may be logical and open, without understand how its actually works, you wont understand the way the conniving, devious, and power hungry players will exploit, exacerbate or twist the results of a decision that was made based on special interest decision.
I'm not trying to say you wont make good decisions.. I'm sure you will, but you may not be able to understand the consequences of those decisions..

This is not a personal attack, I would love to have high sec representation in the CSM, i would just personally prefer it be someone that knows more than only high sec.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:03:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
Originally by: Draco Llasa
0.0 makes up a very large number of very serious players.. so its only natural to expect them to have a high representation


So given that you yourself acknowledge that 0.0 megaalliance players like you and your mates will already be overwhelmingly represented already why do we need more of you? Why are you trying to claim that it's 'imbalanced' in some way to have one or maybe 2 empire specialists out of 9 seats on the CSM?




If those empire specialists understand 0.0, WH, low sec, and can understand the consequences their decisions will have in respect to all those other areas, i do NOT oppose there role in CSM.
To say again, what i oppose is ANY person that wants to sit on CSM to represent their interest without knowledge or regard for the rest of the eve community.

General Windypops
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:06:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
what i oppose is ANY person that wants to sit on CSM to represent their interest without knowledge or regard for the rest of the eve community.


So who exactly is doing that. Apart from your own cluster of alliances who have organised block voting to ensure that they, and their pals are all voted in?

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:17:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
Originally by: Draco Llasa
what i oppose is ANY person that wants to sit on CSM to represent their interest without knowledge or regard for the rest of the eve community.


So who exactly is doing that. Apart from your own cluster of alliances who have organised block voting to ensure that they, and their pals are all voted in?



Alsyth stated he does not have the knowledge to understand the rest of the community, and i know there are 0.0 candidates that are only running because of the JB crap. im sure there are others but im interested more in my campaign and honestly i couldn't tell you everyone's ultimate intent nor do i care. Whats important is that the players voting understand the results and vote for what they want. If voters want all high sec special interest people with no understanding of anything else or all 0.0 special interests that just want to protect their JB networks.. then so be it. (or any various combination)

And as always i want to state again.. IM NOT PART OF A CONSPIRACY, i am not endorsed by NC, i was actually told not to run by certain NC leaders. im running because 'I' want to represent the eve community and i will do my best. while i understand you think (or know) that others are trying to consume CSM, don't assume everyone is. Just dont do it.

If you have issues with others doing that, address it with them not me, i cant control what they do.

General Windypops
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:28:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
i was actually told not to run by certain NC leaders


Are you serious? Why would your leaders tell you not to run?

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:32:00 - [36]
 

i do not feel airing NC dirty laundry is relevant to my campaign.. im only stating the fact that i was not officially endorsed by the NC as a whole.

General Windypops
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:34:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
i do not feel airing NC dirty laundry is relevant to my campaign.. im only stating the fact that i was not officially endorsed by the NC as a whole.


Splitting the pre-agreed block vote didn't go down well, I take it? Nice friends you have there.


Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.17 23:33:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
Alsyth, your comments are base on philosophy, and i do not feel this is a good place for a philosophical debate. While i do not directly oppose what you have said, i do feel there is some flaw to that logic.


Wow, seriously ? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
The one piece that i think is relevant is that while you may be logical and open, without understand how its actually works, you wont understand the way the conniving, devious, and power hungry players will exploit, exacerbate or twist the results of a decision that was made based on special interest decision.
I'm not trying to say you wont make good decisions.. I'm sure you will, but you may not be able to understand the consequences of those decisions..


I think you didn't understand me: I'm running for CSM6 mainly because I don't want 0.0 powerblocs players to use their seats in the CSM to misguide CCP into decision that will help their powerbloc interest. I want to be the voice that screams the truth when they try to do that. And don't think anyone will be able to fool me, I might not live in 0.0, but it doesn't mean I'm clueless about its game mechanics.

Quote:
This is not a personal attack, I would love to have high sec representation in the CSM, i would just personally prefer it be someone that knows more than only high sec.


AGAIN, I know a lot about low-sec too.

You might be able to represent hi-sec players preoccupations, true.
But you represent powerblocs too, and Empire player don't want a powerbloc CSM, your Empire experience won't change the fact that you have personal interest to gain/lose from 0.0 decisions.

Quote:
Alsyth stated he does not have the knowledge to understand the rest of the community, and i know there are 0.0 candidates that are only running because of the JB crap. im sure there are others but im interested more in my campaign and honestly i couldn't tell you everyone's ultimate intent nor do i care. Whats important is that the players voting understand the results and vote for what they want. If voters want all high sec special interest people with no understanding of anything else or all 0.0 special interests that just want to protect their JB networks.. then so be it. (or any various combination)


I didn't say that.
I know my limitations, and I can't speak for the 0.0 community now, that's all. I can perfectly understand any 0.0 player who comes and speak with me, share their concern, etc. I just don't live with them on a daily basis, and won't pretend to KNOW their playstyle.
I have no doubt I will make 0.0 "out of powerbloc" voices heard in CSM if I'm elected, along with some other CSM members (Meissa ? Laughing ).

Empire is not my only interest in Eve, but it NEEDS to be represented in CSM, and non-powerbloc community needs it too. I can represent both, being impartial because I have no personal priviledges to defend.
Again, you might be able to represent Empire, but you still are a powerbloc member with a 0.0 sov and jumbridges to defend. You just can't represent out-of-powerblocs players.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.18 00:03:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Alsyth


Quote:
Alsyth stated he does not have the knowledge to understand the rest of the community....


I didn't say that.
I know my limitations, and I can't speak for the 0.0 community now, that's all

there for you did say that.. I'm only saying you cant speak for all major areas.. I'm also not saying its what people do or don't want (votes will decide that).. I'm just saying i don't PERSONALLY think that's what makes the best candidate.. I'm entitled to that...


You say:
Empire is not my only interest in Eve, but it NEEDS to be represented in CSM, and non-powerbloc community needs it too. I can represent "both"

You then say:
Again, you might be able to represent Empire, but you still are a powerbloc member with a 0.0 sov and jumbridges to defend. You just can't represent out-of-powerblocs players.

So you have your own interest but you say you can represent both.. why cant i??
so its not your only interest? who says 0.0 is my ONLY interest..
You too make too many assumptions in attempt to attack/discredit.. don't..

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.18 00:43:00 - [40]
 

Fact is, this thread title is "Any Candidate who is not advocate of big alliances ??", and you are from a big 0.0 powerbloc alliance.


Quote:
So you have your own interest but you say you can represent both.. why cant i??
so its not your only interest? who says 0.0 is my ONLY interest..
You too make too many assumptions in attempt to attack/discredit.. don't..


I've never said 0.0 is your only interest, stay calm. All CSM are interested in EVE as a whole, they will have to participate on every subject.


But the reason why you can't represent anti-powerbloc people is because you are from a powerbloc. When 0.0 discussions will happen in CSM, how could you fight for something that will rip your renter space apart, destroy jumbridges and your ability to haul your stuff, make small fleets able to harass your mega-alliance farming systems... You will, just like every other powerbloc CSM member, try to defend your personal priviledges.

Me as a player ? I have absolutely no priviledges. I do pvp, only against blinky pirates (which sucks because I have a lot less targets than pirates, etc.) and to help my carebear friends during wars, my playstyle is broken because of the killright system, agression mechanics, docking timers, rich 0.0 players T3/guardian blobs who decide to own lowsec, neutral remote during wardecs...

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.18 13:45:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Yeep on 18/03/2011 13:45:16
Originally by: Alsyth

But the reason why you can't represent anti-powerbloc people is because you are from a powerbloc. When 0.0 discussions will happen in CSM, how could you fight for something that will rip your renter space apart, destroy jumbridges and your ability to haul your stuff, make small fleets able to harass your mega-alliance farming systems... You will, just like every other powerbloc CSM member, try to defend your personal priviledges.



You say you're anti-powerblock, what does that even mean? You oppose groups of people being more powerful than individuals? Just groups of people more powerful than your specific group? Do you feel that one person should be unable to undo the work of thousands, or perhaps there should be strict rules about gathering in groups of more than 10.

So your gameplay area of choice is crappy (although I'd contest that you can't find pirates to shoot, there are plenty of chokes which almost always have camps on. Perhaps you mean pirates you can kill without bringing friends) and you're miserable because of that. How about instead of trying to make other people miserable too you focus on improving the stuff you actually participate in.

And living in Empire has plenty of advantages. Not privileges though, that would imply you couldn't choose to gain them. There are plenty of ways you could gain all the wonderful advantages you think come from living in 0.0 space, you just choose not to.

Alsyth
Night Warder
Posted - 2011.03.19 10:13:00 - [42]
 

You fail to see the point there.

I'm not anti-powerbloc as a playstyle in Eve.

I want to oppose to powerblocs in their wish to have full power in the CSM to keep Eve easy for them.

And yes, I do think smaller groups of people should be able able to disrupt powerbloc lives in a way or another.
Just like a 10 men corp can really annoy a 100 men corps in high sec with a war : it's the only way to bring some risk to them.

That's the reason why I consider myself anti-powerbloc, I think they have too much gamebreaking priviledges right now, and someone need to voice that concern in CSM.

No, I have nothing against powerbloc players, they have the right to live, I don't want powerblocs to disappear either... I just want some balance, new wars in 0.0 and new kinds of guerilla wars, no more locked stronghold full of tamed NPC and belts, ressources in wild areas again, a new possibility for smaller alliances to live in 0.0 whithout being a powerbloc slave... Will that kill powerblocs ? I doubt that.

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 13:43:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Yeep on 20/03/2011 13:43:35
Originally by: Alsyth
You fail to see the point there.

I'm not anti-powerbloc as a playstyle in Eve.

I want to oppose to powerblocs in their wish to have full power in the CSM to keep Eve easy for them.



I can't speak for any other alliances but Goonswarm historically does not deal well with peace In the absence of external enemies we find conflict within our ranks, the loss of Delve is probably the most recent example of this but its held true all the way back to 2005. The Mittani knows this, Vile Rat knows this, they've both lived through most of the alliance's big self destructive peactime phases. Its in neither of their best interests to stagnate 0.0.

Originally by: Alsyth

And yes, I do think smaller groups of people should be able able to disrupt powerbloc lives in a way or another.
Just like a 10 men corp can really annoy a 100 men corps in high sec with a war : it's the only way to bring some risk to them.



But they already can. Come sit 10 people in my ratting system and I won't be doing any ratting for a while, you might even catch my ishtar if I'm busy with other things. Sit off a jump bridge with a cloaked dictor and stealth bomber and you'll kill countless haulers. All this is disrupting the lives of 'powerblock' players.

Originally by: Alsyth

That's the reason why I consider myself anti-powerbloc, I think they have too much gamebreaking priviledges right now, and someone need to voice that concern in CSM.



You still don't really understand what a priviledge is. Other than supercaps requiring sov space to build and being required to take sov space (something that nobody likes) what you're complaining about is tradeoffs. You seem to think living in 0.0 is all puppies and icecream with no sacrifices at all.

Originally by: Alsyth

No, I have nothing against powerbloc players, they have the right to live, I don't want powerblocs to disappear either... I just want some balance, new wars in 0.0 and new kinds of guerilla wars, no more locked stronghold full of tamed NPC and belts, ressources in wild areas again, a new possibility for smaller alliances to live in 0.0 whithout being a powerbloc slave... Will that kill powerblocs ? I doubt that.


Tried living in NPC 0.0? The market mechanics make sharing a conquerable region with people who aren't your friends more painful than its worth. How many systems would you like your 10 man alliance to hold? Goonswarm holds about 1 system per 100 characters, thats 1/10th of a system for your 10 man alliance. If a big alliance isn't allowed 'locked stronghold full of tamed NPC and belts' how is a small alliance going to make any money? Or are they allowed these mythical strongholds?

Have you asked Test or TNT how they feel about being 'slaves'? Or do you just want to live in 0.0 without having to do obnoxious things like make friends with people outside your corp? Like it or not politics is a big part of Eve online, its one of the many things that makes the game unique. Without politics you wouldn't get the grudges that cause most of the game's most memorable wars. But I'm sure your desire to have a small part of space to call your which nobody can take from you, no matter how many more friends they have is more important than that.

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 14:53:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Alsyth
That's the reason why I consider myself anti-powerbloc, I think they have too much gamebreaking priviledges right now

List these gamebreaking privileges, and why they're gamebreaking privileges.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.20 17:07:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Yeep
stuff

Thank you Yeep, you took the type out alot of the things i was thinking when i was reading that.

Alsyth
I would love for you to get a seat on the CSM, just so that (if i get one) i can have this conversation face to face.
1.) you are absolutely right. the CSM should NOT be owned by 0.0 powebloc delegates.. but i think you are mixing this valid argument and powerbloc game play

Right now there are NO mechanics in eve that promote coalitions. for the people that have to manage the standings and access its kind of a pain, which is one of the reasons the diplo role evolved from nothing to an relevant career line in eve. I dont disagree that 0.0 sov system could use some love but groups of people will always join together for a common cause.

And i want to reiterate waht Yeep said. there are SOOO many things you can do with a small alliance to disrupt a large one.. if you are <10 people do as he said, put afk cloakers in carebear systems. roam through regularly so ppl cant mine or rat, camp jump bridges. if you have more.. say 30-60, mess with structures, incap jump bridges, knock out station services.

Razor, is an alliance that is constantly looking for GFs. When we don't have action at home we go and find it (yes many times alone without daily support from the rest of NC). We go to low sec or NPC 0.0 and do this EXACT stuff. We roam with 10-20 man gangs, we do black ops, and jump bridge camping and even market pvp. we really p1ss off our enemies. not be playing to sov grinding and large warfar but by being irritating mosquito 's (mostly trying to instigate a real fight).

Again, im not saying 0.0 and the sov system dont need love.. but dont confuse things you cant do with things you dont know how to do :)

Issler Dainze
Minmatar
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2011.03.20 20:48:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
I think many of you guys are just missing the point. As a CSM member you have to represent the eve community.. you are NOT going to get to make changes for YOUR cause, you are going to work with CCP to provide feedback on issues and ideas based on your understanding of game play and the overall community.

A candidate that doesn't understand 0.0 cant possible understand the implication of his/her recommendation on overall game play, and in reverse and 0.0 only candidate cant represent empire players. A candidate that is advocating for 1 specific thing or another is not going to serve the best interest of the community overall.
You may advocate to fix guns that suck for missioning, but do you understand how that will affect pvp, you may recommend a change for High sec mining, do you have any idea what that will do for WH or 0.0 mining. You may want to add jump drives to orcas, or hulks with 4 lasers, or make megathron uber l33t with rails, but can you understand the affects those changes will have on every other area where that 1 change could be used.

Myself and a few others actually actively play in both empire and 0.0, in both pvp and industrial/pve roles. You should really think about a candidate that will represent and understand as much as possible.


Late responding, but I think the key is a CSM that has a the full range of Eve pilots represented. The majority of pilots in Eve will never be part of or care about the major actions in 0.0 space. That doesn't mean that aren't affected by what happens there. So yes, every CSM member has to understand how 0.0 affects Eve overall.

But my issue is that I think the CCP continues to be overly focused on aspects of Eve that may generate epic conflicts for 10% of the player base have nothing to do with the lives of the majority of the pilots in Eve. Someone needs to be thinking about those other folks and making sure CCP considers their game experiences. That has been and will continue to be my focus.

So let's hope we get a CSM that can fairly represent the entire population of Eve and not just the major 0.0 power blocks (which is what I fear we are getting in CSM 6).

Issler Dainze
Running for CSM to represent the "little guy"

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.03.20 22:05:00 - [47]
 

Issler
You do make some quite valid points.. but i want to add one thing..
Almost everything that happens in 0.0 effects everyone. I know a lot of people don't realize this but that 3 month old n00b pilot is severely impacted by the happenings in 0.0. The results to ANY change to 0.0 will affect even those types.
Here are examples.

1.) Recent conflicts in Geminate, specifically O2O battles have results in the loss of Thousands of ships. Who made those ships, who did the invention for the t2 hulls and modules, and ammo, who did the manufacturing, who's mining the trit and pyerite and other high sec ores. Who's mining the ice to fuel the towers used for staging, and capital fuel.

2.) Moon goo. any changes to sov or moon mining will effect every high sec person that only does invention. that person may not give two craps about 0.0 but when the cost of there reactions shoot up or crash that affects there ability to make profits.

3.) Missioners that love phat faction fit ships, well yea most of that fancy faction loot comes from 0.0. changes to complexes, anomalies, sov, ability for 0.0 carebears to do those things will affect the availability and prices of said items (not saying its bad thing)

Point is confidantes need to understand how EVERYTHING is interconnected, and how at the end of the day 95% of everything that happens in eve is in some pay for or based around PVP (in any security space, but 0.0 is a major part in that)

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.20 23:16:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Imigo Montoya on 20/03/2011 23:17:11
Edited by: Imigo Montoya on 20/03/2011 23:16:23
Originally by: Alsyth
No, I have nothing against powerbloc players, they have the right to live, I don't want powerblocs to disappear either... I just want some balance, new wars in 0.0 and new kinds of guerilla wars, no more locked stronghold full of tamed NPC and belts, ressources in wild areas again, a new possibility for smaller alliances to live in 0.0 whithout being a powerbloc slave... Will that kill powerblocs ? I doubt that.


One of my campaign platforms is promoting more low value NPC space for smaller alliances to occupy that big power blocs won't be interested in. This is a perfect example of a member of one of those power blocs thinking about the game as a whole.

Just realise that being a member of a group doesn't necessarily mean that your only interest is that group's welfare at the expense of others - it is possible to be part of one group (a 0.0 power bloc), and part of many other groups too (mission runners, miners, industrialists, traders, etc etc).

EDIT: Quote messed up


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