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Romo Skywind
Posted - 2011.03.14 07:03:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Romo Skywind on 14/03/2011 07:09:02
Reading through the list of candidates for CSM6, I was surprised to see a large number of people who are, well, jerks. I'm not slandering their names, or telling you not to vote for them, I just want to make sure potential voters know who they're backing. So in order of importance, I present to you:

Manalapan: Mastermind behind the Dynasty Bank scam. That's right, he lied to people and stole something like 500 billion from investors right into his own pocket. Scamming is a part of Eve, and I vehemently oppose any effort to control or make scamming illegal--but still, is this the kind of person you want to elect to a LEADERSHIP position?

Arden Elenduil: Prominent member of Ninjas. He doesn't even try to hide the fact that he griefs carebears in hi-sec for fun. Once again, valid gameplay, but any player who griefs others players for the sole sake of sadistic pleasure is someone I'm hesitant to elect.

Prometheus Exenthal: First let me say this guy is VERY skilled. I have nothing but respect for his abilities, IMO he's one of the most talented solo PvP pilots in the game. His videos are also pretty badass. This said, he's kinda a douche. I've run into him a few times in game, if he kills you he gloats, if you kill him he calls you a bunch of noobs/blobbers/etc.

Any member of the goons: Don't think I need to say much here, Goons pretty much pride themselves for trying to break the game for everyone else, and are pretty much the most untrustworthy bunch in the game.

Before a flame war starts, let me re-iterate one more time. ALL of these people have had significant accomplishments in game, and are all talented in their own ways. I'm not trying to question that or take that away from them. I only want to bring to light certain personality characteristics most people may not know about. If you still feel like they are the best candidate to represent your needs, by all means vote for them.

-Aerilis (posting with alt because main account is inactive)

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.14 07:07:00 - [2]
 

i had no idea who manalapan was but now that i do that's pretty chill, hi5 duder

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.14 07:49:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Romo Skywind
Any member of the goons: Don't think I need to say much here, Goons pretty much pride themselves for trying to break the game for everyone else, and are pretty much the most untrustworthy bunch in the game.

I'm guessing it'll never be an issue, but if you ever do come into 0.0, when you don't die to an AoE doomsday, or find yourself paying rent to an alliance almost blatantly bankrolled and supported by corrupt GMs and developers you can reflect upon this statement.

k? bye.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.14 09:14:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Romo Skywind

Prometheus Exenthal: First let me say... I've run into him a few times in game, if he kills you he gloats, if you kill him he calls you a bunch of noobs/blobbers/etc.


So what you're saying is that he plays EVE?

Krutoj
Caldari
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.03.14 09:27:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
i had no idea who manalapan was but now that i do that's pretty chill, hi5 duder


Strange, am surprised you didnt. I knew about it, was pretty big and I think made it on IC news as well as forums.

Anyway, one thing is to scam on a personal level, but scamming a lot of people who trusted a bank, kinda sad. I am trying to start a PLEX BANK, once I have enough ISK and maybe get Chribba and other rich guys onboard, but getting people to trust in that since that scam, is tough :(

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.03.14 10:47:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
Originally by: Romo Skywind
Any member of the goons: Don't think I need to say much here, Goons pretty much pride themselves for trying to break the game for everyone else, and are pretty much the most untrustworthy bunch in the game.

I'm guessing it'll never be an issue, but if you ever do come into 0.0, when you don't die to an AoE doomsday, or find yourself paying rent to an alliance almost blatantly bankrolled and supported by corrupt GMs and developers you can reflect upon this statement.

k? bye.


You said 'GMs and developers'. That's plural. Care to drop some names?

Also, why are you letting a dead alliance still own you like this?

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.14 11:20:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 14/03/2011 11:23:16
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
Originally by: Romo Skywind
Any member of the goons: Don't think I need to say much here, Goons pretty much pride themselves for trying to break the game for everyone else, and are pretty much the most untrustworthy bunch in the game.

I'm guessing it'll never be an issue, but if you ever do come into 0.0, when you don't die to an AoE doomsday, or find yourself paying rent to an alliance almost blatantly bankrolled and supported by corrupt GMs and developers you can reflect upon this statement.

k? bye.


You said 'GMs and developers'. That's plural. Care to drop some names?

Also, why are you letting a dead alliance still own you like this?

The only reply needed: http://eve-search.com/thread/1475043/page/1#1

BTW: T20, Aurora, and the GM precursor to Aurora that always spawned events in a certain area. But with a horrendous pubbie post like that I guess it's no surprise you dumped all your votes on Trebor.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.03.14 13:30:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
.... But with a horrendous pubbie post like that .....
Pro-Tipp: Avoiding the use of Pubbies to refer to anyone not in SA/Goons, at least in public will probably aid your cause no end. As a bonus it'll make you look a little less like Scientology members.

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.14 14:11:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Romo Skywind
I was surprised to see a large number of people who are, well, jerks.


Vote Vile rat for CSM. I will be a jerk FOR your interests.


Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.14 14:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
.... But with a horrendous pubbie post like that .....
Pro-Tipp: Avoiding the use of Pubbies to refer to anyone not in SA/Goons, at least in public will probably aid your cause no end. As a bonus it'll make you look a little less like Scientology members.


Hey, if we were like scientology we'd be charging...to..join...

Uh, nm.


Seriously though, pick a a stance and stick with it. "These guys have accomplished a lot in game, and they like to destroy other people's ships--perfectly valid part of the game and not that there's anything wrong with that but they're really terrible human beings because of it and should be shunned for an out of game thing because of it."

Is this hello kitty online or eve? Do the people running have a good understanding of game mechanics or not? Their chosen playstyle may be a way they blow off steam or their way of thinking outside the box. To castigate us for it and make the accusation that goon CSM reps (of which there have already been several over the existence of the CSM) would "destroy the game" is remarkably shortsighted and frankly demeaning to your own position.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.03.14 15:20:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
.... But with a horrendous pubbie post like that .....
Pro-Tipp: Avoiding the use of Pubbies to refer to anyone not in SA/Goons, at least in public will probably aid your cause no end. As a bonus it'll make you look a little less like Scientology members.


Hey, if we were like scientology we'd be charging...to..join...

Uh, nm.


Seriously though, pick a a stance and stick with it. "These guys have accomplished a lot in game, and they like to destroy other people's ships--perfectly valid part of the game and not that there's anything wrong with that but they're really terrible human beings because of it and should be shunned for an out of game thing because of it."

Is this hello kitty online or eve? Do the people running have a good understanding of game mechanics or not? Their chosen playstyle may be a way they blow off steam or their way of thinking outside the box. To castigate us for it and make the accusation that goon CSM reps (of which there have already been several over the existence of the CSM) would "destroy the game" is remarkably shortsighted and frankly demeaning to your own position.
I've ranted a lot about Mittans campaign trying to bring down Trebor for no real reason that I can really see. It kind of pi55ed me off because of the hard work that Trebor put into the CSM last time around.

That said, I don't really think Mittens, Vile or Helen will ruin the game. At the very worst, they'll just mess up the coming CSM and it'll be back to basics in CSM7. In reality, they'll probably try to make sure that the Goons' part of the game stays the way it is (the jump bridge drama) and at best they'll push for a supercap nerf. There isn't much else they could push through because even though various people have hinted at trying to extort or blackmail CCP devs into doing things their way, too much of that leads straight to RL legal trouble and permabans, which I'm pretty sure Mittens and co will avoid if they can. Also, given they way Mittens SHC campaign fell on its arse when exposed, after which he decided to try to play the openly "ebil malishus" card, I don't think he has the real life capability of doing that.

The only tools that work with CCP are the professional approach, i.e. slogging through the details of features, processes and various items, and as a last resort, player rage like last summer. But even the latter would become blunted if used too often as players and CCP would become immune to it.

TL;DR, The world will not end if Mittens and co get into the CSM as they'll end up having to work with the others or become part of the lolfreetrip crowd that no one really takes any notice of.

As to the "pubbies" bit and paying for SA, it obviously gives members of SA a community feeling, but it'll never improve the Goons' public appeal in Eve. Dropping the use of that term in public, at least, will only help you.

Kumi Katana
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.14 15:37:00 - [12]
 

and another touchy subject for the goons i see Twisted Evil
Goons just need to see that their time has come and get out while they still can, more and more will vote for those that are not corrupted, fools or goon. People want results and not loud mouth talk with a gun up their rear ends threatening others.

People want to play the game without being buggered all the time just so that goons can have some fun. Goons are just heartless sobs that have nothing better to do it seems then to pester people that do want to play nicely.

And even on the forums, again it's the goons that swarm around like there is no tomorrow. Just again to make sure their ego's are present and people know they are around. If you think about it, it really sounds like the goons have some personal issues that they blame others for.Rolling Eyes

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.14 15:50:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kumi Katana
goons are mean

the eve universe is too harsh and cold

why must an alliance of several thousand unfairly have a dozen or so people reply to my rants and outnumber my sycophants?



Eve is PvP--be it market, shooting, or political. Trying to pretend otherwise is to be remarkably deluded.

In short, Deal With It.

Lady Spanky
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.14 16:10:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Lady Spanky on 14/03/2011 16:13:58
Originally by: Fuujin
Eve is PvP--be it market, shooting, or political. Trying to pretend otherwise is to be remarkably deluded.

In short, Deal With It.


Having read your post and looked at your stats on the Goonfleet killboard I sure hope you're good at Markets.

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.14 16:23:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Lady Spanky

Having read your post and looked at your stats on the Goonfleet killboard I sure hope you're good at Markets.



Oh no, my k/d ratio! :ohdear:

Actually, now that I look at it my k/d ratio is pretty damned good (when I actually play), so I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here.

Akane Hiru
Posted - 2011.03.15 10:35:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: Kumi Katana
goons are mean

the eve universe is too harsh and cold

why must an alliance of several thousand unfairly have a dozen or so people reply to my rants and outnumber my sycophants?



Eve is PvP--be it market, shooting, or political. Trying to pretend otherwise is to be remarkably deluded.

In short, Deal With It.

I'm pretty sure you'll agree that there's a difference between a soldier defending the freedom of his country and a serial killer who kills for fun. Yet your comment would suggest there's no difference between the two--they're both PvP. I only use RL examples because RL is less abstarct and more tangible than internet spaceships, and thus the folly of your reasoning more apparent. While griefers in Eve may not deserve to be compared to criminals, you cannot deny there is a significant psychological difference between a player who PvPs for "gf"'s and one who seeks only to make another human being miserable. Think of it this way. When you sit down for a game of chess with a friend, your goal is not to make him as miserable as possible, it is simply a friendly competition, a match of wits. To pretend otherwise is a remarkably deluded attempt at excusing your own sociopathic tendancies that you only act upon in a virtual world where actions that are socially unaccpetable in the real world have no consequences.

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 10:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Akane Hiru
When you sit down for a game of chess with a friend, your goal is not to make him as miserable as possible, it is simply a friendly competition, a match of wits.


Either you don't know much about competitive chess or you think nobody ever plays games with people who aren't their friends.

Akane Hiru
Posted - 2011.03.15 12:42:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Yeep
Originally by: Akane Hiru
When you sit down for a game of chess with a friend, your goal is not to make him as miserable as possible, it is simply a friendly competition, a match of wits.


Either you don't know much about competitive chess or you think nobody ever plays games with people who aren't their friends.

Fair enough, I'll admit I don't know much about competitive chess. But my point wasn't the extoll the virtues of chess players, it was to illustrate a fundamental psychological difference between griefers and ordinary PvPers. But to modify the analogy to suit your objections, picture if you will the most competitive, ruthless chess player. He talks smack, he makes enemies of all his opponents, nobody likes him. He may make his opponents miserable, but that's never his express goal.

Even so, I don't have an issue with the fact that there are so many griefers in Eve. Humans are pretty evil by nature, so it's no surprise that so many of us will turn on each other the moment we're put in an environment where we're not held socially accountable for our actions. What I do take issue with, however, is the amount of people who insist that there's nothing wrong with their actions, that really, I'm just acting like an ******* toward others and making them miserable because it's not real. I'm actually a really nice and decent person in real life.

Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 12:51:00 - [19]
 

Eve isn't chess. Eve is an exceedingly complicated game of poker where nobody knows all the rules and where the dealer makes occasional attempts to rewrite the rules so that it's fair, even though it's never actually fair. Some players get better cards and win. Others are better at reading their opponent and win. Still others lose because they don't know what they're doing, and it is to this last group that Romo Skywind belongs.

Romo Skywind
Posted - 2011.03.15 13:04:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Romo Skywind on 15/03/2011 13:04:24
What evidence do you have that I have "lost" or am in any way less than 100% satisfied with my Eve experience? The only person on that list to have ever personally harmed me is Prom, and he killed my Ishkur once. :(

Oh that's right, you don't know the first thing about me. You just feel the need to insinuate that I have some mental deficiency, or have some personal vendetta against your precious leaders, or perhaps I'm confused about my sexual orientation, simply because I made a passing remark that Goons aren't trustworthy.

Derp.

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 13:31:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Akane Hiru

Fair enough, I'll admit I don't know much about competitive chess. But my point wasn't the extoll the virtues of chess players, it was to illustrate a fundamental psychological difference between griefers and ordinary PvPers. But to modify the analogy to suit your objections, picture if you will the most competitive, ruthless chess player. He talks smack, he makes enemies of all his opponents, nobody likes him. He may make his opponents miserable, but that's never his express goal.



At the risk of being dragged deeper down the rabbit hole of a bad metaphore, you can enjoy making your enemies miserable without it being the sole reason you play. I'm not a competitive chess player but I have friends who are and the psychological warfare involved can get pretty intense and is a big part of the game. You certainly wouldn't be a **** to your friends when you played against them but when you're playing to win its open season.

If you approve of the action but not the motivation, does it even matter if the end result to yourself is the same?

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.15 14:56:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 15/03/2011 16:28:57


Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
I'm guessing it'll never be an issue, but if you ever do come into 0.0, when you don't die to an AoE doomsday, or find yourself paying rent to an alliance almost blatantly bankrolled and supported by corrupt GMs and developers you can reflect upon this statement.k? bye.


Well AoE doomsdays were quite annoying of course, but then again so now are uniform SuperCarrier blobs. I think its fair to say goons had very little to do with improving the play balance in 0.0. Remember I met Bane Glorious face to face (who was the vaunted goon supercap thinker) and he could barely string two words together on the CSM and preferred to do his edgy 19 year old impressions to the developers rather than present much input to ongoing debate. Fairest thing to say about that guy was that he was a non-event.

As for the developer corruption scandal. We all know the story. A GM cheated and got caught, should have been fired but wasn't. CCP cleared house and instituted some pretty firm inhouse rules that may well have led to a cure that was worse than the ailment.

Allow me to explain. Sure, you had a GM cheating for BOB, he spawned BPOs that were not meant to be there. Rather than just firing the guy and putting him on a boat to Florida so he could seek work with the Bush dynasty in electoral reform they slapped him on the hands and instituted what became a collective punishment for their current and future staff (and us).

How's that? Well, rules ensuring that eve developers cannot play a meaningful role in alliance politics, 0.0 wars, endgame content etc etc. Can have no other long-term impact than to alienate and distance such play experience from the developers we are counting on fixing it.

By making the betrayal of one hired guy (GM) and sections of the Aurora (volunteer) team influence their approach to hyper-strict separation of work and play experience there has (in my view) been an impact, and that can be see in recent years with CCP seeming to lose touch with the concerns of the player base, and lose the thread of whats important in their game world.

Now sure. Thats one of the things that CSM is supposed to help fix.

But Goon candidates (in my experience) tend to be pretty long on forum noise and froth and very short on delivery. You guys are great at stoking up rage threads on the forums that lead to CCP knee-jerking and stopping all devs from playing the game in a meaningful way. And you are pretty good at inspiring rage-threads that stop Doomsday weapons taking out your fleet of rifters (again) to your benefit.

But now we have a pretty damned static and boring 0.0 thats haunted by supercarriers and riddled with jump-bridges for quick logistics and you happen to be in with the current aristocracy there.

Where are the rage threads now?
There aren't any because you like things the way they are and your candidates are running to tell the developers than 0.0 is fine in your meaty hands.

But lets not forget that any time any of us lament the fact the devs seems a bit "clueless" about this or that aspect of the 0.0 or alliance experience a big reason for that lack of knowledge was the hue and cry you guys pursued to punish that first cheating GM that pushed beyond appropriate punishment for the person in the wrong and had an impact on the overall collective knowledge of game developers in Eve for the proceeding years.


Removed an inappropriate term from the text. - Adida

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:03:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Skippermonkey on 15/03/2011 15:06:28
ARDEN FOR CSM!
he griefs carebears in hi-sec for fun!

edit because this is now my sig...

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:10:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Fuujin on 15/03/2011 15:11:04
Originally by: Akane Hiru


:words:

eve is a lot like ww2 because...




While I'm sure you'd love to read deep philisophical meaning into different playstyles--and may even be correct periodically--your overly verbose premise neglects a key point:

This is an internet spaceship game. No one dies or gets hurt beyond the layers of fat choking their arteries from all the hot pockets consumed while staring at a poorly-coded UI.

Everything in the game you get outside of missions you get by taking from another player. Either you get a good deal on the market or they skin you with prices or you blow them up to take their mods or they blow you up.

So if you are concerned about PvP actions in a game fundamentally based on PvP, what does that say about you?

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:20:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Vile rat

No I know what the term means, I'm just kinda curious why you feel you need to make your point using racial epithets and ad hominem attacks.


I hardly think a member of goonswarm should be lecturing anyone about ad hominem attacks.


Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:23:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Vile rat

No I know what the term means, I'm just kinda curious why you feel you need to make your point using racial epithets and ad hominem attacks.


I hardly think a member of goonswarm should be lecturing anyone about ad hominem attacks.




Then why give myself, a member of Goonswarm, valid cause to criticize you for doing exactly that?

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:25:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Vile rat

No I know what the term means, I'm just kinda curious why you feel you need to make your point using racial epithets and ad hominem attacks.


I hardly think a member of goonswarm should be lecturing anyone about ad hominem attacks.




Then why give myself, a member of Goonswarm, valid cause to criticize you for doing exactly that?


You don't have valid cause. As usual you are simply trolling.

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Vile rat

No I know what the term means, I'm just kinda curious why you feel you need to make your point using racial epithets and ad hominem attacks.


I hardly think a member of goonswarm should be lecturing anyone about ad hominem attacks.




Then why give myself, a member of Goonswarm, valid cause to criticize you for doing exactly that?


You don't have valid cause. As usual you are simply trolling.



So you're denying you used a racial epithet and ad hominem attacks to disparage a former CSM delegate?

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:29:00 - [29]
 

Ah, so its ok to use epithets to describe goons in a serious manner.

Out of curiosity, do you also RP as Emily Post in your internet chat brothel?

Berrik Radhok
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.15 15:30:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 15/03/2011 15:15:30

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
I'm guessing it'll never be an issue, but if you ever do come into 0.0, when you don't die to an AoE doomsday, or find yourself paying rent to an alliance almost blatantly bankrolled and supported by corrupt GMs and developers you can reflect upon this statement.k? bye.


Well AoE doomsdays were quite annoying of course, but then again so now are uniform SuperCarrier blobs. I think its fair to say goons had very little to do with improving the play balance in 0.0. Remember I met Bane Glorious face to face (who was the vaunted goon supercap thinker) and he could barely string two words together on the CSM and preferred to do his edgy 19 year old wigga impressions to the developers rather than present much input to ongoing debate. Fairest thing to say about that guy was that he was a non-event.

As for the developer corruption scandal. We all know the story. A GM cheated and got caught, should have been fired but wasn't. CCP cleared house and instituted some pretty firm inhouse rules that may well have led to a cure that was worse than the ailment.

Allow me to explain. Sure, you had a GM cheating for BOB, he spawned BPOs that were not meant to be there. Rather than just firing the guy and putting him on a boat to Florida so he could seek work with the Bush dynasty in electoral reform they slapped him on the hands and instituted what became a collective punishment for their current and future staff (and us).

How's that? Well, rules ensuring that eve developers cannot play a meaningful role in alliance politics, 0.0 wars, endgame content etc etc. Can have no other long-term impact than to alienate and distance such play experience from the developers we are counting on fixing it.

By making the betrayal of one hired guy (GM) and sections of the Aurora (volunteer) team influence their approach to hyper-strict separation of work and play experience there has (in my view) been an impact, and that can be see in recent years with CCP seeming to lose touch with the concerns of the player base, and lose the thread of whats important in their game world.

Now sure. Thats one of the things that CSM is supposed to help fix.

But Goon candidates (in my experience) tend to be pretty long on forum noise and froth and very short on delivery. You guys are great at stoking up rage threads on the forums that lead to CCP knee-jerking and stopping all devs from playing the game in a meaningful way. And you are pretty good at inspiring rage-threads that stop Doomsday weapons taking out your fleet of rifters (again) to your benefit.

But now we have a pretty damned static and boring 0.0 thats haunted by supercarriers and riddled with jump-bridges for quick logistics and you happen to be in with the current aristocracy there.

Where are the rage threads now?
There aren't any because you like things the way they are and your candidates are running to tell the developers than 0.0 is fine in you meaty hands.

But lets not forget than any time any of us lament the fact the devs seems a bit "clueless" about this or that aspect of the 0.0 or alliance experience a big reason for that lack of knowledge was the hue and cry you guys pursued to punish that first cheating GM that pushed beyond appropriate punishment for the person in the wrong and had an impact on the overall collective knowledge of game developers in Eve for the proceeding years.





Speaking of forum noise,


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