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Linda Flamewalker
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:15:00 - [541]
 

Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
For goodness sake people, all this bantering about who owns the data and whether it's accurate or not is meaningless.

CCP can use the database as an indicator of which people to look more closely at, and determine their guilt or innocence based *ENTIRELY* on CCPs OWN DATA.

Having a nice short list of a few hundred or thousand people to look at is far easier than combing through several hundred thousand.


We said it what 50 times now in this thread but the "omg its an anonymous source/its illegal" crowd doesnt listen. To busy doing damage control and hoping to save their accounts. Or at least that sure is what it looks like. Though i did like the weak attempt to link it to **** germany. That was funny. Strawman much people?

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:20:00 - [542]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
People could threaten a lawsuit, but it would go nowhere. The list would simply have been demonstrated to have been used as a flag of which accounts bare further scrutiny. Upon further scrutiny of the data CCP owns, and with the support of the list, the account has been demonstrated to be in violation of the EULA the user agreed upon. Therefore the account was terminated in full compliance of the terms listed in the EULA.


I know it would go nowhere. CCP, the plaintiff and the lawyers on both sides would know too.

Lawyers working on a case cost money. How many monthly subscription fees or time card sales does it take to cover a single lawyer's hourly rate, not including expenses incurred?

There's also the problem of politicians and bureaucrats from several different nations. Moldova is trying to join the EU. Someone or some agency could make some major drama out of a case of hacking, privacy rights, free market, and libel/defamation just to make a political point. Drama can be really expensive.


Overtly pursuing the people on the list might not be worth the potential legal costs of dealing with frivolous lawsuits. OTOH, CCP could decide that making a bold statement about RMT in spite of the potential legal costs would be a good business decision and worth the expense.

*shrug*



Anyone filing the lawsuits would be required to file them in Reykjavik, Iceland. They'd have to travel to Iceland to make their case. They know they'd have no case, would lose and be out the expensive amount of money required to travel there in the first place, as well as be required to pay for any and all legal expenses imposed on CCP in the counter-suit.

Yeah, not going to happen.

Niveon
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:22:00 - [543]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Massively has now reported on this. Now here comes the outside flames.


Once stuff like this hits the news it becomes big. CCP will be forced to take action.
http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:26:00 - [544]
 

Originally by: Niveon
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Massively has now reported on this. Now here comes the outside flames.


Once stuff like this hits the news it becomes big. CCP will be forced to take action.
http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed


ty... front page updated.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:34:00 - [545]
 

Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
figuring out ways to make the game less isk grindy so people feel less need to have to buy isk to compete.


You mean... like.... PLEX!

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:34:00 - [546]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
People could threaten a lawsuit, but it would go nowhere. The list would simply have been demonstrated to have been used as a flag of which accounts bare further scrutiny. Upon further scrutiny of the data CCP owns, and with the support of the list, the account has been demonstrated to be in violation of the EULA the user agreed upon. Therefore the account was terminated in full compliance of the terms listed in the EULA.


I know it would go nowhere. CCP, the plaintiff and the lawyers on both sides would know too.

Lawyers working on a case cost money. How many monthly subscription fees or time card sales does it take to cover a single lawyer's hourly rate, not including expenses incurred?

There's also the problem of politicians and bureaucrats from several different nations. Moldova is trying to join the EU. Someone or some agency could make some major drama out of a case of hacking, privacy rights, free market, and libel/defamation just to make a political point. Drama can be really expensive.


Overtly pursuing the people on the list might not be worth the potential legal costs of dealing with frivolous lawsuits. OTOH, CCP could decide that making a bold statement about RMT in spite of the potential legal costs would be a good business decision and worth the expense.

*shrug*



Reality check. A few sad souls will make threads claiming their attorney said they have a case against CCP but they'll forget all about it if their account(s) are restored. "My mom's lawyer said we can sue you if you don't give me back my stuffz!" and a few sadder souls will threaten to kill themselves and reason their blood will be on CCP's hands if their accounts aren't restored. I've seen it on many game forums over the years. *yawn

The way you worded it though, ooooh scary. Idle threat all the same. Laughing

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:37:00 - [547]
 

Originally by: Rykuss

Reality check. A few sad souls will make threads claiming their attorney said they have a case against CCP but they'll forget all about it if their account(s) are restored. "My mom's lawyer said we can sue you if you don't give me back my stuffz!" and a few sadder souls will threaten to kill themselves and reason their blood will be on CCP's hands if their accounts aren't restored. I've seen it on many game forums over the years. *yawn

The way you worded it though, ooooh scary. Idle threat all the same. Laughing


I used to be a SOE forum moderator, generally, people would be told to **** off in a polite way when they started threatening lawsuits on the forums after having their threads deleted.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:39:00 - [548]
 

Originally by: Rykuss
Reality check. A few sad souls will make threads claiming their attorney said they have a case against CCP but they'll forget all about it if their account(s) are restored. "My mom's lawyer said we can sue you if you don't give me back my stuffz!" and a few sadder souls will threaten to kill themselves and reason their blood will be on CCP's hands if their accounts aren't restored. I've seen it on many game forums over the years. *yawn

The way you worded it though, ooooh scary. Idle threat all the same. Laughing


ell oh ell... Rykuss hit it right on the head. My favorite eve mails were from a guy I scammed for 800 mil isk or something. He told me that he bought the money in RL money and that he would sue me for the 80 bucks he spent on it, come find me, and petition CCP because all his friends were GMs and they were going to make my in-game life 'impossible'. I had a good laugh and than made a sandwich. Yum. YARRRR!!

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:39:00 - [549]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Overtly pursuing the people on the list might not be worth the potential legal costs



What legal cost?

What would iskbank's case be? While violating copyright laws and illegally accessing CCPs computers we created a database.... dismissed.

What would the player's case be? While violating EULA and therefore illegally accessing CCP's computers.... dismissed.


LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:41:00 - [550]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
While I'd like to think that was the case, I bet it was just a GM thinking "Wow I hit gold!!!" then runs around the office jumping up and down about the whole situation only to be sternly reminded by a senior GM they can't be party to illegal actions Laughing


If the database is ligit, then it is itself the product of illegal activity... accessing CCPs computer systems in violation of EULA = hacking. Claims to ownership are void if the product itself is the result of illegal activity.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:43:00 - [551]
 

Originally by: Gogela
Originally by: Rykuss
Reality check. A few sad souls will make threads claiming their attorney said they have a case against CCP but they'll forget all about it if their account(s) are restored. "My mom's lawyer said we can sue you if you don't give me back my stuffz!" and a few sadder souls will threaten to kill themselves and reason their blood will be on CCP's hands if their accounts aren't restored. I've seen it on many game forums over the years. *yawn

The way you worded it though, ooooh scary. Idle threat all the same. Laughing


ell oh ell... Rykuss hit it right on the head. My favorite eve mails were from a guy I scammed for 800 mil isk or something. He told me that he bought the money in RL money and that he would sue me for the 80 bucks he spent on it, come find me, and petition CCP because all his friends were GMs and they were going to make my in-game life 'impossible'. I had a good laugh and than made a sandwich. Yum. YARRRR!!


I hope it had bacon on it. You can't have a victory sandwich without bacon.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:43:00 - [552]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
figuring out ways to make the game less isk grindy so people feel less need to have to buy isk to compete.


You mean... like.... PLEX!
No. I mean like make the grind for isk fun and enjoyable and not the snore fest it currently is. Hire a couple of dedicated mission designers to crank out new missions each month and start an episodic epic mission arc that comes in installments every other month or such that has an ever evolving plotline that can be used to mirror current game events. Make pve fun and interesting again so you don't mind grinding for isk. Then most people won't feel the need to run bots or find some illegal isk seller with a good exchange rate to make the non pve parts of the game doable.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:53:00 - [553]
 

Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
I mean like make the grind for isk fun and enjoyable and not the snore fest it currently is.


I'm sure the PVPers would disagree that more PVE content is what EVE needs.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:55:00 - [554]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
I mean like make the grind for isk fun and enjoyable and not the snore fest it currently is.


I'm sure the PVPers would disagree that more PVE content is what EVE needs.


You're completely wrong. The "PvPers" think that EVE desperately needs good, challenging, fun PvE that reasonably emulate PvP conditions

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:56:00 - [555]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
I mean like make the grind for isk fun and enjoyable and not the snore fest it currently is.


I'm sure the PVPers would disagree that more PVE content is what EVE needs.
I'm sure the pvpers who fund their pvp with pve would say you are wrong.

George Nada
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:57:00 - [556]
 

Originally by: Corozan Aspinall
Originally by: Horizonist
/me shakes head in disbelief
Shocked




Why so pale friend Cicero?

This is just one example of one business. How many are there? 10? 20? 50? Hundreds?

Saddest thing about this is because they've chosen to 'out' the list publicly and not sent it to CCP and asked for comment or clarification or action etc. they've killed the story in one feature. Crying or Very sad I'd dearly like to have seen this one to the end .. but I doubt we will now.



I just wanted to point out that this isnt exactly true. We sent a copy of the full DB to CCP first, and then about a week later published the story. Plenty of time.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:58:00 - [557]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst

Anyone filing the lawsuits would be required to file them in Reykjavik, Iceland. They'd have to travel to Iceland to make their case. They know they'd have no case, would lose and be out the expensive amount of money required to travel there in the first place, as well as be required to pay for any and all legal expenses imposed on CCP in the counter-suit.

Yeah, not going to happen.


Don't be naive. That's what is "supposed" to happen. In reality, people can make things happen regardless of the law.

They made $290k in ten months just from one site for one game. (There's a Russian sister site according to the article.) Now if you add in RMT from other games such as EQ, WoW, LotR, etc., then we could be talking about some nice money here. Given the the state of the local economies, nice money could be worth *serious* money, enough to buy off a politician or bureaucrat either in Iceland or in a trade/diplomatic post.

If you want to be a drama queen, do you ever wonder just how far the Russian mafia can reach out and touch someone?


I agree that trying to bring a lawsuit against CCP isn't likely, but never underestimate the power of lawsuits, bribes, influence peddling, political grandstanding, the press, political contacts, and criminal connections when large sums of money are involved.

Fix Lag
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:58:00 - [558]
 

ITT: confirmation that CCP still doesn't do squat against people using bot programs or buying ISK. Rolling Eyes

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:01:00 - [559]
 

Originally by: Linda Flamewalker
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
For goodness sake people, all this bantering about who owns the data and whether it's accurate or not is meaningless.

CCP can use the database as an indicator of which people to look more closely at, and determine their guilt or innocence based *ENTIRELY* on CCPs OWN DATA.

Having a nice short list of a few hundred or thousand people to look at is far easier than combing through several hundred thousand.


We said it what 50 times now in this thread but the "omg its an anonymous source/its illegal" crowd doesnt listen. To busy doing damage control and hoping to save their accounts. Or at least that sure is what it looks like. Though i did like the weak attempt to link it to **** germany. That was funny. Strawman much people?

Most of the people here who are discussing and arguing are too smart to buy ISKs at these sites. It is people, who are always sure of what they are doing and ride high on their horses, who are also the ones who fall and fall for RMTs.

Having a nice list with a lot of names on it is easy you think? It is a no brainer? It is as easy as buying ISKs from a cheaper site than CCP? This easy maybe? Laughing

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:04:00 - [560]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 10/03/2011 21:06:52
This is brilliant. So far we've had:

Using this list is fascist thuggery
Using this list is copyright infringement
Using this list is slander
Using this list violates "EU law"
Using this list will promote ISK farming
Using this list will reduce EVE to 10k active accounts

And now, finally:

Using this list will make the Russian Mafia enemies of CCP.

EDIT: And not to forget friend Whitehound's brand new and especially epic:

The people not on the list are most likely to be the real RMTers!


This list is like the 7 plagues inflicted on Pharoah. DONT USE THE LIST, CCP: LET MY PEOPLE GO! OH GOD MY FIRSTBORN SadSad

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:09:00 - [561]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Using this list will make the Russian Mafia enemies of CCP.
Of the ones you listed this is the only one that could concievably be construed as an effective threat. Whats that you say? The server farm in london was firebombed by some masked thugs who promptly dissapeared never to be seen again? Twisted Evil

Theodoric Darkwind
Gallente
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:13:00 - [562]
 

The solution to this is easy, CCP needs to enforce its EULA and ban every name on that list and take legal action to shut down the corporate entitiy of iskbank. Legal precedent to sue botters in MMOs was set by blizzard a few years ago when they were able to shut down a company that made botting software.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:13:00 - [563]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
...

Your name is on this list.

Linda Flamewalker
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:14:00 - [564]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 10/03/2011 21:06:52
This is brilliant. So far we've had:

Using this list is fascist thuggery
Using this list is copyright infringement
Using this list is slander
Using this list violates "EU law"
Using this list will promote ISK farming
Using this list will reduce EVE to 10k active accounts

And now, finally:

Using this list will make the Russian Mafia enemies of CCP.

EDIT: And not to forget friend Whitehound's brand new and especially epic:

The people not on the list are most likely to be the real RMTers!


This list is like the 7 plagues inflicted on Pharoah. DONT USE THE LIST, CCP: LET MY PEOPLE GO! OH GOD MY FIRSTBORN SadSad


^^ :) Brilliant summery of the nay sayers arguments. Well done Sir for compiling them all so we can see.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:16:00 - [565]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 10/03/2011 21:06:52
This is brilliant. So far we've had:

Using this list is fascist thuggery
Using this list is copyright infringement
Using this list is slander
Using this list violates "EU law"
Using this list will promote ISK farming
Using this list will reduce EVE to 10k active accounts

And now, finally:

Using this list will make the Russian Mafia enemies of CCP.

EDIT: And not to forget friend Whitehound's brand new and especially epic:

The people not on the list are most likely to be the real RMTers!


This list is like the 7 plagues inflicted on Pharoah. DONT USE THE LIST, CCP: LET MY PEOPLE GO! OH GOD MY FIRSTBORN SadSad


Who needs reality television with threads like this?

Linda Flamewalker
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:17:00 - [566]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Malcanis
...

Your name is on this list.


I am sure you can point it out to us then.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:18:00 - [567]
 

Originally by: Rykuss
Who needs reality television with threads like this?
What makes this far better than 'reality' tv is that the tears here are real. YARRRR!!

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:21:00 - [568]
 

Originally by: Linda Flamewalker
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Malcanis
...

Your name is on this list.


I am sure you can point it out to us then.

I got it from an anonymous source:

Linda Flamewalker, $550
Malcanis, $750

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:25:00 - [569]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Linda Flamewalker
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Malcanis
...

Your name is on this list.


I am sure you can point it out to us then.

I got it from an anonymous source:

Linda Flamewalker, $550
Malcanis, $750

pwnt

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.03.10 21:25:00 - [570]
 

...but we can't really blame them. Having red wallet seriously hurts career advancement and may force perfectly healthy spaceship pilot to retire early and become highly respected forum troll.


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