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blankseplocked [evenews24.com] iskbank.com exposed (thread closed and forwarded)
 
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Lynx Australis
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:30:00 - [511]
 

Originally by: Callum545
in case you all missed it

KiaDuplex $4,172.74
KiaDuplex $2,615.20

I hate people like this Please CCP do something
LOL'D hard on that Very Happy

I KNEW IT!

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:34:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Grindkore
Perhaps I just don't take this "GAME" seriously, don't get me wrong I love EVE. But why would you spend that kind of money even if you are wealthy on intangible and worthless game currency?


It's their money, their account and their choice...


Actually, the account belongs to CCP. You pay for the privilege of being allowed to access the account on their machines and modify the data as you see fit, provided you do so within the terms of the EULA agreement.


Wow you really know what you are talking about, lol

Only an individual, natural person who is an adult or, in the discretion of such an adult, his or her minor child, may establish an Account. You are responsible and liable for all activities conducted through your Account, regardless of who conducts those activities.


Nice selective reading...Read the section titled: "PROPRIETARY RIGHTS"

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:37:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Cutter Isaacson

Read. this. slowly.

The list has been published on a public website, that means it is now in the public domain. That means it can be used by anybody.

Do. you. understand. yet?


No, I don't understand yet but i want to keep arguing like I do so that I don't feel like I'm losing the argument

The two things are not even close.

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:39:00 - [514]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Malcanis


IskBank have released a public statement asserting that the database is wholly fictitious. It would be difficult for them to also claim that they owned copyright (an array of information cant be copyrighted, btw, did you know that?) or that the use of it in any way compromised them or their customers.

Whatever other things CCP have to fear, legal action by IskBank is now not amongst them.

PS how much did you buy?


De facto, databases when defended have been covered by copyright law. If the iskbank database is protected by eu law, it's covered by copyright law no matter what the content is.
can you give us an example of this in action?

Lynx Australis
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:40:00 - [515]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 09/03/2011 21:08:26
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
You're trying too hard. Way too hard. Is your heart pounding harder and harder in your chest with every passing beat? Do you feel the warm breath of CCP on the backs of the necks of the alts that do show up on the list? Oh no... can they trace your IP address through them? All that spent money is about to be vaporized, and you know there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah, they're on to you now. Your days are numbers. All you have will be gone. You will be no more. Tha-thump tha-thump tha-thump... they're coming for you...

Troll. I think that the argument about the list containing credit card numbers is made made up. People who read the EveNews24 article are starting to see what is not there. I went back to EveNews24 and read through the article, but I did not see any mentioning of credit card information.

If they had each player's credit card information, too, then it still would not be proof of a real money transfer, but it can be considered a "grim indicator" and an important link in the evidence chain, because one cannot get such information easily.
Now someone is really, really afraid.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:41:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Linda Flamewalker
Why do people assume CCP will make judgements based solely on this?!
Because that assumption opens a tiny window of hope, where proving the list as inadmissible or illegal to use would mean that their alts are safe… Wink



Best defense is a good offense. The list can't be proven to be accurate/truthful. If CCP acts against the listed people, CCP could be threatened with a class action lawsuit or defamation lawsuit. That lawsuits might be frivolous, but the mere cost of defending against a lawsuit might not be worth the hassle of using the list.

If the "it's not worth the legal costs to use the list" theory is correct, then the people on the list might then have carte blanche to make RMT purchases in the short term. Meaning, if CCP catches them making RMT purchases now, then the listed people can make the claim that CCP targeted them based on a leaked list of dubious validity instead of from the recent RMT purchases, thus scaring off CCP with the thread of expensive court procedures.


disclaimer: IANAL, especially in whatever legal jurisdiction that CCP falls under.

cbb: I can't be bothered to read through all 17 pages for previous posts, so apologies if this post is a dupe.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:41:00 - [517]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Grindkore
Perhaps I just don't take this "GAME" seriously, don't get me wrong I love EVE. But why would you spend that kind of money even if you are wealthy on intangible and worthless game currency?


It's their money, their account and their choice...


Actually, the account belongs to CCP. You pay for the privilege of being allowed to access the account on their machines and modify the data as you see fit, provided you do so within the terms of the EULA agreement.


Wow you really know what you are talking about, lol

Only an individual, natural person who is an adult or, in the discretion of such an adult, his or her minor child, may establish an Account. You are responsible and liable for all activities conducted through your Account, regardless of who conducts those activities.


"Your" refers to the person establishing the account. The rights to use the account are yours, however the account itself and all data on their servers is the proerlty of CCP. Or let's put it this way... if it's "your" (ownership) account, then you can take it with you when you leave, yes? No. There is no "thing" to own. An account is simply data set up to grant you as an individual access to additional data. The additional data you're allowed to access is restricted by the data in the account.

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:41:00 - [518]
 

Originally by: Barakkus


Nice selective reading...Read the section titled: "PROPRIETARY RIGHTS"


You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:41:00 - [519]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 10/03/2011 19:42:13
Originally by: Barakkus
Nice selective reading...Read the section titled: "PROPRIETARY RIGHTS"
Allow me…

11. PROPRIETARY RIGHTS

B. Rights to Certain Content


You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.

Your account is "yours" in the same way as a car you rent is "your rented car".
Originally by: dexington
Wow you really know what you are talking about, lol
Actually, he does. Btw, this is why you're not allowed to sell or transfer the account you're using: because it's not your account to sell. This is also why you're not allowed to buy or sell ISK — because it's not yours.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:44:00 - [520]
 

Edited by: Barakkus on 10/03/2011 19:44:43
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Barakkus


Nice selective reading...Read the section titled: "PROPRIETARY RIGHTS"


You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.


You are still selectively reading.

Quote:
A. Ownership of Software, System and Game
As between you and CCP, CCP is the sole and exclusive owner of the Software, System, Game and Game Content (as defined below). The Software, System, Game and all Game Content are protected by law governing copyrights, trademarks and other proprietary rights. CCP reserves all rights not expressly granted herein.

The Game is comprised of, without limitation, software code, programs, routines, subroutines, objects, files, data, characters (and items, currency, objects and attributes comprising or associated with a character or an Account), graphics, sound effects, music, animation, video, text, content, layout, design and other information downloaded from and accessible through the System (collectively, the "Game Content"). CCP, its affiliates, licensors and/or suppliers retain all of their right, title and interest (including without limitation all intellectual property rights) in and to the Software, System, Game and all Game Content, and no rights thereto are transferred to you, except for the limited license granted above.


You are an idiot and are making yourself look stupid the more you try to twist things to make yourself look right.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:46:00 - [521]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 10/03/2011 19:47:45
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Linda Flamewalker
Why do people assume CCP will make judgements based solely on this?!
Because that assumption opens a tiny window of hope, where proving the list as inadmissible or illegal to use would mean that their alts are safe… Wink



Best defense is a good offense. The list can't be proven to be accurate/truthful. If CCP acts against the listed people, CCP could be threatened with a class action lawsuit or defamation lawsuit. That lawsuits might be frivolous, but the mere cost of defending against a lawsuit might not be worth the hassle of using the list.

If the "it's not worth the legal costs to use the list" theory is correct, then the people on the list might then have carte blanche to make RMT purchases in the short term. Meaning, if CCP catches them making RMT purchases now, then the listed people can make the claim that CCP targeted them based on a leaked list of dubious validity instead of from the recent RMT purchases, thus scaring off CCP with the thread of expensive court procedures.


disclaimer: IANAL, especially in whatever legal jurisdiction that CCP falls under.

cbb: I can't be bothered to read through all 17 pages for previous posts, so apologies if this post is a dupe.



People could threaten a lawsuit, but it would go nowhere. The list would simply have been demonstrated to have been used as a flag of which accounts bare further scrutiny. Upon further scrutiny of the data CCP owns, and with the support of the list, the account has been demonstrated to be in violation of the EULA the user agreed upon. Therefore the account was terminated in full compliance of the terms listed in the EULA.

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:47:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Malcanis


IskBank have released a public statement asserting that the database is wholly fictitious. It would be difficult for them to also claim that they owned copyright (an array of information cant be copyrighted, btw, did you know that?) or that the use of it in any way compromised them or their customers.

Whatever other things CCP have to fear, legal action by IskBank is now not amongst them.

PS how much did you buy?


De facto, databases when defended have been covered by copyright law. If the iskbank database is protected by eu law, it's covered by copyright law no matter what the content is.
can you give us an example of this in action?


The Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:51:00 - [523]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Malcanis


IskBank have released a public statement asserting that the database is wholly fictitious. It would be difficult for them to also claim that they owned copyright (an array of information cant be copyrighted, btw, did you know that?) or that the use of it in any way compromised them or their customers.

Whatever other things CCP have to fear, legal action by IskBank is now not amongst them.

PS how much did you buy?


De facto, databases when defended have been covered by copyright law. If the iskbank database is protected by eu law, it's covered by copyright law no matter what the content is.
can you give us an example of this in action?


The Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997


Which means absolutely nothing since CCP is not in possession of said database.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:52:00 - [524]
 

It is an anonymous source. Nothing more should be needed to be said here. It can be that one RMT organization has hacked another, it could be that an EVE player hacked the site or that it was done by someone completely different. The data can be forged, filtered or simply true.

Just check the list for your name and that you did not receive any ISKs, items or PLEX recently from an unknown source should you be innocent. If you did receive any ISKs, items or PLEX from an unknown source then contact a GM with a petition and have them destroy it.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:52:00 - [525]
 

Can I have your stuff... you won't do much with them if wallet is 50 trillion on negative side .)

Eyeama Spy
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:53:00 - [526]
 

as the creditcard payment details have been supplied , i hope ccp notifys the relevent tax authoritys , i am sure they want their cut of iskbanks profits

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:55:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Malcanis


IskBank have released a public statement asserting that the database is wholly fictitious. It would be difficult for them to also claim that they owned copyright (an array of information cant be copyrighted, btw, did you know that?) or that the use of it in any way compromised them or their customers.

Whatever other things CCP have to fear, legal action by IskBank is now not amongst them.

PS how much did you buy?


De facto, databases when defended have been covered by copyright law. If the iskbank database is protected by eu law, it's covered by copyright law no matter what the content is.
can you give us an example of this in action?


The Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997
This is counter to what you've been saying. CCP don't have the DB, per se, the DB was put into the public domain.

How does this relate?

General Mujahideen Husseni
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:57:00 - [528]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
It is an anonymous source. Nothing more should be needed to be said here.


This.

This and lawyering about Internet Space Ships. lol

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.03.10 19:57:00 - [529]
 

Originally by: dexington

The Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997


Before you go on saying the database was provided to CCP, you missed the GM correspondence that was posted in this thread, and removed, where a GM told the hacker they could not accept the database as it was obtained through illegal methods.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:00:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Grindkore
Perhaps I just don't take this "GAME" seriously, don't get me wrong I love EVE. But why would you spend that kind of money even if you are wealthy on intangible and worthless game currency?


It's their money, their account and their choice...


Actually, the account belongs to CCP. You pay for the privilege of being allowed to access the account on their machines and modify the data as you see fit, provided you do so within the terms of the EULA agreement.


Wow you really know what you are talking about, lol

Only an individual, natural person who is an adult or, in the discretion of such an adult, his or her minor child, may establish an Account. You are responsible and liable for all activities conducted through your Account, regardless of who conducts those activities.


You can't be that stupid. Rolling Eyes Here, I'll translate the adultspeak for you: Basically, when you get caught buying isk, you can't use the lame excuse that you walked away from your computer and your roommate, brother, child, whomever must've purchased the isk with your account while you were away. So if you get caught and hopefully banned for purchasing isk outside the EULA, take it like a man.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:01:00 - [531]
 

Ban them all, tbh.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:01:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: Eyeama Spy
as the creditcard payment details have been supplied , i hope ccp notifys the relevent tax authoritys , i am sure they want their cut of iskbanks profits

Whenever my neighbour smokes pott do I slip an anonymous letter into my local police president's mailbox. He is still smoking pott, but I have slipped the police president over 500 anonymous letters so far. If I keep doing it will they have to respond. I am sure of it. ... Oh, see? There is now a lot of police activity on our street this evening. Looks like they are finally going to arrest him. I feel victorious! Wait a moment, someone is knocking at my door ...

Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:01:00 - [533]
 

For goodness sake people, all this bantering about who owns the data and whether it's accurate or not is meaningless.

CCP can use the database as an indicator of which people to look more closely at, and determine their guilt or innocence based *ENTIRELY* on CCPs OWN DATA.

Having a nice short list of a few hundred or thousand people to look at is far easier than combing through several hundred thousand.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:04:00 - [534]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Originally by: dexington

The Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997


Before you go on saying the database was provided to CCP, you missed the GM correspondence that was posted in this thread, and removed, where a GM told the hacker they could not accept the database as it was obtained through illegal methods.
Actually the way the gm responces went it was pretty clever. At first the gm was like wow nice find send us the goods and we will reward you if it seems legit. Then after getting the goods there is a followup reply about whoops sorry guys this was illegally accuired so no rewards and we can't ermm 'officially' use it but thanks anyways. Smile

Some clever monkeys over there it seems.

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:06:00 - [535]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 10/03/2011 19:42:13
Originally by: Barakkus
Nice selective reading...Read the section titled: "PROPRIETARY RIGHTS"
Allow me…

11. PROPRIETARY RIGHTS

B. Rights to Certain Content


You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.

Your account is "yours" in the same way as a car you rent is "your rented car".
Originally by: dexington
Wow you really know what you are talking about, lol
Actually, he does. Btw, this is why you're not allowed to sell or transfer the account you're using: because it's not your account to sell. This is also why you're not allowed to buy or sell ISK — because it's not yours.


18 pages and people still can't grasp this concept that they pay ccp for a service that can be taken away from them at any time, ccp own everything and anyone apart from ccp selling isk does so illegally.

doesn't matter if ccp say they didn't use that database or not to ban people because the owners of it were breaking any laws in the first place selling ccps property.

ccp in theory could also easily shut down that isk seller. its been done by other publishers on multiple occasions.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:09:00 - [536]
 

Remember, it is CCP that has the copyright to EVE. They grant you the right to download and run the EVE client but ONLY under the terms of the EULA. They allow you to access the system, but ONLY under the terms of the EULA.

Any use of EVE copyrighted materials that violates the EULA is breaking the copyright laws. Any access to EVE servers that violates the EULA is, by definition, illegally accesing their system.

You log into EVE to transfer ISK to someone in exchange for real worl money, you have legally just comitted an illegal access of their system. Legally, this is hacking.

You log into eve to "spend" ISK that was transferred to you in exchange for real world money, you have just illegally accessed CCP's computers and are guilty of hacking.

You use the name ISK or EVE or the name of any object from the game or any other copyrighted materials to make money, you have violated EVE's copyright rights.


Let's assume for a moment that the data is real, and there is some defacto copyright of the data. Let's assume CCP uses the info to look into logs and finds that indeed the player received items as specified and then bans the players.

1) iskbanks's copyright would be void as it is the product of illegal activity (the access of CCP's systems for purposes other than those granted in the EULA and the use of CCP's copyrighted material for purposes other than authorized.)

2) Assume a copyright exists (unlikely) and is not void (highly unlikely). iskbank's copyright does not transfer to the player. CPP would not be violating the rights of the players' by using the materials.

3) If a copyright exists and if it is not void (which it would be), then iskbank MAY have a civil tort against iskbank for using the copyrighted materials to damage iskbank's ability to do business.

But, what is their case? While we were violating copyright laws and illegally accessing CCPs computer systems... dismissed!

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:11:00 - [537]
 

Originally by: knobber Jobbler
ccp in theory could also easily shut down that isk seller. its been done by other publishers on multiple occasions.
You could in theory kill an entire ant colony squashing them one by one too. Might take a while though. CCP's efforts are best applied by punishing the buyers and figuring out ways to make the game less isk grindy so people feel less need to have to buy isk to compete.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:13:00 - [538]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
The list can't be proven to be accurate/truthful.
It doesn't have to be.

The list is just a bunch of names with a "these people are RMT:ing (we think)" note attached. It's no different than me submitting a petition where I say "I think X is RMT:ing". My being able to prove it is entirely irrelevant as far as CCP decision to investigate and then ban X (or not) is concerned.
Quote:
If CCP acts against the listed people, CCP could be threatened with a class action lawsuit or defamation lawsuit.
No they couldn't, as CCP has nothing to do with the publication of said list. Someone might be able to go after EN24, though, but that's another thing. CCP investigating people after receiving tips from their players does not really count as "defamation".
Quote:
Meaning, if CCP catches them making RMT purchases now, then the listed people can make the claim that CCP targeted them based on a leaked list of dubious validity instead of from the recent RMT purchases, thus scaring off CCP with the thread of expensive court procedures.
…except that there is no grounds for a procedure. CCP is well within their rights to nuke any account at any time for any reason. They're particularly within their rights if they investigate an account and come up with proof of wrongdoing.

Again: CCP will not ban people based on the list. They will ban people based on improper behaviour (viz. RMT) once the GM:s have found enough evidence for it while investigating an account.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:13:00 - [539]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
People could threaten a lawsuit, but it would go nowhere. The list would simply have been demonstrated to have been used as a flag of which accounts bare further scrutiny. Upon further scrutiny of the data CCP owns, and with the support of the list, the account has been demonstrated to be in violation of the EULA the user agreed upon. Therefore the account was terminated in full compliance of the terms listed in the EULA.


I know it would go nowhere. CCP, the plaintiff and the lawyers on both sides would know too.

Lawyers working on a case cost money. How many monthly subscription fees or time card sales does it take to cover a single lawyer's hourly rate, not including expenses incurred?

There's also the problem of politicians and bureaucrats from several different nations. Moldova is trying to join the EU. Someone or some agency could make some major drama out of a case of hacking, privacy rights, free market, and libel/defamation just to make a political point. Drama can be really expensive.


Overtly pursuing the people on the list might not be worth the potential legal costs of dealing with frivolous lawsuits. OTOH, CCP could decide that making a bold statement about RMT in spite of the potential legal costs would be a good business decision and worth the expense.

*shrug*

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:13:00 - [540]
 

Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Barakkus
Originally by: dexington

The Copyright and Rights in Databases Regulations 1997


Before you go on saying the database was provided to CCP, you missed the GM correspondence that was posted in this thread, and removed, where a GM told the hacker they could not accept the database as it was obtained through illegal methods.
Actually the way the gm responces went it was pretty clever. At first the gm was like wow nice find send us the goods and we will reward you if it seems legit. Then after getting the goods there is a followup reply about whoops sorry guys this was illegally accuired so no rewards and we can't ermm 'officially' use it but thanks anyways. Smile

Some clever monkeys over there it seems.


While I'd like to think that was the case, I bet it was just a GM thinking "Wow I hit gold!!!" then runs around the office jumping up and down about the whole situation only to be sternly reminded by a senior GM they can't be party to illegal actions Laughing


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