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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.08 18:15:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 09/03/2011 17:14:33
You can find my personal thoughts on the reasons behind the goon smear campaign in my campaign thread, and you may want to read that first.

This thread is devoted to a related issue; the damage it is doing to other qualified candidates.

Hi everyone,

In this election, we've seen a lot of mudslinging, much of it directed at me.

That's fine, I don't take it personally, and I know it's just politics.

For example, one current CSM alternate has apparently been referring to me as a "dangerous idiot" on his internal forums, while at the same time, for the last month or so, we've been working together on the Public Letter on Incarna in a quite cordial and professional manner.

So either he's not serious, or he has a great deal of experience working with dangerous idiots.

But here is the point I want to make: be very wary of changing your vote to me because of an emotional reaction to a provocative campaign message.

For example, I've gotten some emails saying things like "I was going to vote for you and Seleene, but after all this, I'm throwing all my votes to you."

I think this kind of reaction is ill-advised. You will be doing exactly what the mudslingers want you to do.

Allow me to be blunt.

The only reason anger about the mudslinging should cause you to change your vote is if you were going to vote for one of the mudslingers or their candidates.

In particular, I strongly urge you not to change your vote to me from one of the solid, non-aligned candidates who are running, such as Seleene, Ripard Teg, Meissa Anunthiel, Jonathon Silence, and Roc Weiler.

These are the kind of candidates who will work hard to improve the game, and the CSM. For me to be re-elected to a CSM that doesn't contain people like them will be a pyrrhic victory -- and deeply pleasing to those who care more about their own personal petty interests than the health of the game as a whole.

Sincerely,
Trebor Daehdoow

ImmaSplodeYou
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.03.08 18:20:00 - [2]
 

And people say Goons/Solar Legion of Red Noise are trying to form a bloc...

Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.08 18:28:00 - [3]
 

In another light, it sounds like you're in favour of splitting the vote among candidates who aren't putting an effort into taking the chair. Conversely, lets say a Goonswarm candidate such as Kalrand, who has the ear of a number of players concerned with industrial aspects of the got a seat on the CSM, are you suggesting that they wouldn't have a desire to make progressive contributions?

Does the [GOON] ticker ticker make them an undesirable candidate to you? Or are you simply trying to galvanize/generate some anti-goon sentiment?

What are your feelings toward the contributions of CSMs that did boast a goon presence, and how do you feel they compare overall to the quality of CSMs without the goon presence? What about other goon-sourced community contributions?

I hope you'll forgive the provocative nature of this post. I've been trying to be even-handed in my questioning, but I've also been trying to avoid the temptation of posting in threads by people who already players offer strong support. But your reasons for posting this thread are unclear to me and I just want to understand your motivations, as a candidate, for posting this thread.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.03.08 18:44:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 08/03/2011 18:45:13
Originally by: Minerva Seraph
In another light, it sounds like you're in favour of splitting the vote among candidates who aren't putting an effort into taking the chair. Conversely, lets say a Goonswarm candidate such as Kalrand, who has the ear of a number of players concerned with industrial aspects of the got a seat on the CSM, are you suggesting that they wouldn't have a desire to make progressive contributions?

Does the [GOON] ticker ticker make them an undesirable candidate to you? Or are you simply trying to galvanize/generate some anti-goon sentiment?

What are your feelings toward the contributions of CSMs that did boast a goon presence, and how do you feel they compare overall to the quality of CSMs without the goon presence? What about other goon-sourced community contributions?

I hope you'll forgive the provocative nature of this post. I've been trying to be even-handed in my questioning, but I've also been trying to avoid the temptation of posting in threads by people who already players offer strong support. But your reasons for posting this thread are unclear to me and I just want to understand your motivations, as a candidate, for posting this thread.


The chair has absolutely no power other than opening sessions btw. Just saying.

It doesn't matter what tag a candidate wears. What matters is how they behave and the contribution they have to make.
I have no problem with goonswarm (hell, I have bee stickers on my fridge), I'm more concerned with candidates who preemptively call half the other idiots or morons. Chances are these people are going to have to work together.

If one wants to debate, one should debate issues, priorities, knowledge, experience, track record of a candidate if one is so inclined. Calling names is never a good idea, and certainly not insulting others. It says a lot about a candidate that they think their program/priorities/values do not stand enough on their own that they feel they have to bash others to look better by biased comparison...

There have been more than one instance of productive goons in the past CSMs, there have also been blatant attempts at tilting the proposals towards gameplay changes that would benefit them above all (which, in my view, is bad :p). Goons play the game like everyone else, in their own "unique" style, one that needs to be represented, but there should be a difference between "game style" and the CSM. The CSM is not PvP, it's a venue to foster changes and improvements, give feedback, it's not the characters, it's collaborative effort of the players behind the characters...

Above all else, one should vote for candidates who can work with others, especially with people who hold different points of view, for that's what the vast majority of the time is going to be spent on, discussing differences... The ironic thing is, some non-goon candidates that are running would probably do a better job at defending goonswarm's game than some of the goons running...

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.08 18:47:00 - [5]
 


I was quite amused when Mittani's apparent alt described you as a higher-functioning autistic. I guess the comment was phrased with a certain level of mental health jealousy Cool





Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:24:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Minerva Seraph on 08/03/2011 19:26:01
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 08/03/2011 18:45:13
The chair has absolutely no power other than opening sessions btw. Just saying.

It doesn't matter what tag a candidate wears. What matters is how they behave and the contribution they have to make.
I have no problem with goonswarm (hell, I have bee stickers on my fridge), I'm more concerned with candidates who preemptively call half the other idiots or morons. Chances are these people are going to have to work together.

If one wants to debate, one should debate issues, priorities, knowledge, experience, track record of a candidate if one is so inclined. Calling names is never a good idea, and certainly not insulting others. It says a lot about a candidate that they think their program/priorities/values do not stand enough on their own that they feel they have to bash others to look better by biased comparison...

There have been more than one instance of productive goons in the past CSMs, there have also been blatant attempts at tilting the proposals towards gameplay changes that would benefit them above all (which, in my view, is bad :p). Goons play the game like everyone else, in their own "unique" style, one that needs to be represented, but there should be a difference between "game style" and the CSM. The CSM is not PvP, it's a venue to foster changes and improvements, give feedback, it's not the characters, it's collaborative effort of the players behind the characters...

Above all else, one should vote for candidates who can work with others, especially with people who hold different points of view, for that's what the vast majority of the time is going to be spent on, discussing differences... The ironic thing is, some non-goon candidates that are running would probably do a better job at defending goonswarm's game than some of the goons running...



Right. I agree that there is a lot of mudslinging going on, but I feel that this time around there is a reenforced effort to sling mud at candidates with the wrong ticker and this concerns me. The CSM isn't supposed to be about party politics, but that doesn't preclude block politics and it's clear that the Goonblock is fighting Trebor.

Trebor's answer appears to be to passively fend off GOON candidates by endorsing others, and that worries me. So my interest is to better understand those positions, but I like to ask these questions aggressively.

Jade: I can't determine if you're calling me a Mittani alt, or if you're referring to some other poster. If you are, I guess I could try to prove that I'm not, but then I don't necessarily mind that the image my posting conjours up is some old, retired fart who yells on the Internet, and I doubt any attempt short of posting time stamped pics would satisfy you. So I'll keep it trite: Whose alt are you? :P

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:26:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Minerva Seraph
Jade: I can't determine if you're calling me a Mittani alt.


I imagine that is quite true.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:28:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Minerva Seraph
Conversely, lets say a Goonswarm candidate such as Kalrand, who has the ear of a number of players concerned with industrial aspects of the got a seat on the CSM, are you suggesting that they wouldn't have a desire to make progressive contributions?

Of course not. The campaign is totally divorced from the regular work of the CSM, and I will base my opinions about a delegate solely on how productive they are. For example, whatever his personal opinion of me may be, once Helen Highwater was able to devote time to the CSM, he did good work.

Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:30:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Minerva Seraph on 08/03/2011 19:34:26
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Minerva Seraph
Jade: I can't determine if you're calling me a Mittani alt.


I imagine that is quite true.



Meissa Anunthiel suggested that the chair has very little power, and I understand that you were once the chair. Could you use some of your experience on the CSM to explain to the players who will be voting what your experience as the chair was like? I think players in general would like to better understand the scope of the job so we can appreciate why it's been so heavily politicized.

Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Minerva Seraph
Conversely, lets say a Goonswarm candidate such as Kalrand, who has the ear of a number of players concerned with industrial aspects of the got a seat on the CSM, are you suggesting that they wouldn't have a desire to make progressive contributions?

Of course not. The campaign is totally divorced from the regular work of the CSM, and I will base my opinions about a delegate solely on how productive they are. For example, whatever his personal opinion of me may be, once Helen Highwater was able to devote time to the CSM, he did good work.



Thank you for your quick and candid response, Trebor. I wish I could summon players to a thread. I'd like to better understand why Helen, who was voted in, was unable to contribute their more of their time to the CSM. I'd assume that delegates would appreciate the experience more, but just as with real-world politics, I suppose you might have a variety of commitment from different sources.

But I appreciate your statement on their contribution.

The Goonblock v. Trebor campaign is a hot topic on the forums, and one of the draws to the game for me at the beginning were the politics of war. To the layman, it reads like a futuristic space action novel except the parties involved often have ridiculous names.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:44:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Minerva Seraph
Meissa Anunthiel suggested that the chair has very little power, and I understand that you were once the chair. Could you use some of your experience on the CSM to explain to the players who will be voting what your experience as the chair was like? I think players in general would like to better understand the scope of the job so we can appreciate why it's been so heavily politicized.


It doesn't have a great deal (if any) actual power. But unless the chair can be considered honest and hardworking its possible that some harm can be done to the process. In this current election its a symbolic gesture that the Goons would like to take the chair position to make a point about their role in the game as a power bloc.

After all, its likely that the coming session will involve potential alterations to 0.0 mechanics and might impact the bottom line of the space-alliances seeking their candidate's election. The jump bridge logistics argument is pretty important to the spaceship emperors out there.

On balance though its better to have more candidate's elected from an independent perspective than it is to control the chair. 2 votes are better than 1 even if the 1 does come from the chairperson.

So speaking personally I'd rather see Mittani take the chair at the cost of an extra hardworking independent making it onto the council if forced to make the choice.



Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.08 20:03:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Minerva Seraph
Meissa Anunthiel suggested that the chair has very little power, and I understand that you were once the chair. Could you use some of your experience on the CSM to explain to the players who will be voting what your experience as the chair was like? I think players in general would like to better understand the scope of the job so we can appreciate why it's been so heavily politicized.


It doesn't have a great deal (if any) actual power. But unless the chair can be considered honest and hardworking its possible that some harm can be done to the process. In this current election its a symbolic gesture that the Goons would like to take the chair position to make a point about their role in the game as a power bloc.

After all, its likely that the coming session will involve potential alterations to 0.0 mechanics and might impact the bottom line of the space-alliances seeking their candidate's election. The jump bridge logistics argument is pretty important to the spaceship emperors out there.

On balance though its better to have more candidate's elected from an independent perspective than it is to control the chair. 2 votes are better than 1 even if the 1 does come from the chairperson.

So speaking personally I'd rather see Mittani take the chair at the cost of an extra hardworking independent making it onto the council if forced to make the choice.





Ultimately CCP is free to listen to their own whims, based on practicality and simply what makes sense. Incarna, for instance, is here to stay, after five+ years of development or whatever and countless amounts of capital burned.

Personally, I think someone like Trebor is motivated at making good things happen. He's been criticized for coming up with and voicing bad ideas, which I'm not going to comment on. I don't think it's appropriate to judge possible execution based on concept and I certainly don't want to do so here, but that concept needs to be informed. I do agree that Trebor has shown the motivation to push an idea that he's behind so that it reaches some form of realization, and he is willing to do the labour that people find menial - I get that he's committed, and those are the strengths he brings with him. The problem I have with him as a candidate is that I'm seeing a lack of ideas that come from Trebor himself.

Now I don't mind admitting that I've probably missed things. In some of the other candidate threads I've asked for solid examples of supported items vs. successes; it's too easy to take advantage of the discourse through forum trolling, for example, than it is to hold, er, "empirical evidence" in your hand and say "I'm not here to tell you that you suck, this is documented proof that says that they suck!"

(This is why I keep positioning myself as "the uninformed mass". I need useful information, positive and negative, and demand it to be spoonfed to me. I have that right though; people want our vote, and I think it's their job not only to tell me why, but also to show me why.)

Helen Highwater
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2011.03.08 20:58:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Minerva Seraph

Thank you for your quick and candid response, Trebor. I wish I could summon players to a thread. I'd like to better understand why Helen, who was voted in, was unable to contribute their more of their time to the CSM. I'd assume that delegates would appreciate the experience more, but just as with real-world politics, I suppose you might have a variety of commitment from different sources.


Be careful what you wish for...

I didn't attend many of the early meetings in CSM 5 for a variety of reasons. The most pertinent was that I was actually pretty ill and spent a lot of time in and out of hospital thanks to a very sudden (and rather scary!) heart problem. Additionally I was third alternate to begin with (I later ended up as first alternate following Ankh's removal and T'Amber's resignation) and, from my experience in CSM 4, the third alternate rarely got to do much at the online meetings so the CSM meetings were a lower priority than they had been in CSM 4. Regardless of my attendance at meetings though I kept up with the other work of the CSM and contributed to the discussions that were held on the forums and via email. I've mentioned before that the meetings are almost the least important things that the CSM does - despite the fact that they are the most visible thing that we do. I can't vote at a meeting unless a full delegate is absent (initially I couldn't vote unless three delegates were absent) but I can bend the ear of someone who can vote at any time prior to the meeting.

As soon as I became first alternate I stepped up my meeting attendance dramatically because it became far more likely that I'd be able to contribute to the proceedings.

Regarding Trebor and the original topic of the thread, I have an opinion on Trebor's effectiveness as a CSM candidate that I did not intend to be published outside of the Goonfleet forums. I was saddened and angry when I saw that Courthouse (who btw isn't a Mittani alt, he's a MRCHI director) had reposted my words. For bringing that tone into the campaign I apologise. Trebor is a hard-working and conscientious CSM delegate but I feel that he often simply doesn't understand the ramifications of the topics he's (often passionately) discussing. This in my opinion makes him a poor choice for a candidate despite his other, undeniable strengths.

One of the unfortunate things about being an adult is that you can't always choose who you have to associate with and so, despite my feelings on Trebor's opinions, I work with him and with other members of the CSM with whom I have disagreed. There was a point during the initial drafts of the Incarna letter where Trebor and I were going around in circles on the edit and talking past each other. Trebor contacted me privately to cool the situation down and as a result we were able to reach an agreement rather than continue to argue over semantics. I appreciated that even though I disagree with almost every opinion that he holds.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:38:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

I was quite amused when Mittani's apparent alt described you as a higher-functioning autistic. I guess the comment was phrased with a certain level of mental health jealousy Cool



I don't altpost. vOv

Meissa and Seleene are both fine candidates who I get along with smashingly, for what it's worth! I have no problems with them being on the Council.

Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:41:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Minerva Seraph on 08/03/2011 21:43:21
Edit: Hi Mittani! I'm going to but your thread later.

Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Minerva Seraph

Thank you for your quick and candid response, Trebor. I wish I could summon players to a thread. I'd like to better understand why Helen, who was voted in, was unable to contribute their more of their time to the CSM. I'd assume that delegates would appreciate the experience more, but just as with real-world politics, I suppose you might have a variety of commitment from different sources.



As soon as I became first alternate I stepped up my meeting attendance dramatically because it became far more likely that I'd be able to contribute to the proceedings.

Regarding Trebor and the original topic of the thread, I have an opinion on Trebor's effectiveness as a CSM candidate that I did not intend to be published outside of the Goonfleet forums. I was saddened and angry when I saw that Courthouse (who btw isn't a Mittani alt, he's a MRCHI director) had reposted my words. For bringing that tone into the campaign I apologise. Trebor is a hard-working and conscientious CSM delegate but I feel that he often simply doesn't understand the ramifications of the topics he's (often passionately) discussing. This in my opinion makes him a poor choice for a candidate despite his other, undeniable strengths.

One of the unfortunate things about being an adult is that you can't always choose who you have to associate with and so, despite my feelings on Trebor's opinions, I work with him and with other members of the CSM with whom I have disagreed. There was a point during the initial drafts of the Incarna letter where Trebor and I were going around in circles on the edit and talking past each other. Trebor contacted me privately to cool the situation down and as a result we were able to reach an agreement rather than continue to argue over semantics. I appreciated that even though I disagree with almost every opinion that he holds.


Helen, I greatly appreciate you taking time to clarify things. Personally I believe that the CSM would benefit from enabling the alternates more recognition, in the spirit of Opposition days - where they can briefly introduce their own perspectives. I hope you're better and appreciate you explaining some of your personal stance.

And, for what it's worth, I feel that Trebor mischaracterized your early contributions. I think most voters would agree that being number 3 in line toward being president, for example, would make you a rather unlikely candidate.

I feel that applying the style of politics appropriate for a community is unfair, particularly if it's a private forum, which is how I can accept posts on Scrapheap Challenge (or, respectively, Something Awful.com, which appears to be semi-private) but I disagree with politics posts being mirrored from private forums. Mittani knows how to get his people out, and I'm as does Trebor. Internet Communities differ, and so to the processes that initiate activism within those Internet communities.

One of the things that I found damaging to the public side of the discourse was Trebor's promise to pay out EVE ISK to whoever finds the most effective channel of getting his name out. He's already well known, and so it seems not only redundant, but it's evolved into a back-door way of damaging the debate. Mittani has directly attacked competitors, but at least he's knocking on the door before taking a wrecking ball to the speaker's corner, and he appears to be keeping his venom in the cab of his vehicle of mass destruction. He's not paying his supporters, and so they appear more genuine to me.

I guess what I'm saying is that, despite your overall friendly everyday player demeanour, it appears that you are unintentionally sabotaging the debate. Trebor, I can't ask you to stop people who genuinely agree with your stance and are fervent to express it, but in the interest of good faith, would you consider removing the billions-isk bounty?

General Windypops
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:54:00 - [16]
 

TACTICAL
VOTING
GONE
MAD


HeroInAHalfShell
Posted - 2011.03.08 22:35:00 - [17]
 

Don't let your focus on 'mudslinging' let you be distracted from answering my question to you:

Do you not understand the mechanics of the CSM, or did you lie in your thread?

Courthouse
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.08 22:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

I was quite amused when Mittani's apparent alt described you as a higher-functioning autistic. I guess the comment was phrased with a certain level of mental health jealousy Cool







Welcome back to the mudpit, madam~

A more adept individual may have noticed that I am not even in Goonwaffe, and as a director in Merch Industrial and alliance diplomat for Goonswarm Federation I am privileged to work with mittani on a regular basis, the research and analysis of Trebor's capacities are original research. The conclusions were my own as well.

Tootles~

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.08 22:59:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 08/03/2011 22:59:21

would you prefer the term catspaw?
or would dupe save us all a little time in discussion of semantics?



Courthouse
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.09 00:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 08/03/2011 22:59:21

would you prefer the term catspaw?
or would dupe save us all a little time in discussion of semantics?





You may address me as Sir and respond in the form of 'yes sir/no sir'.


Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.09 01:48:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 09/03/2011 03:46:50
I came here expecting a 'Complete guide to MUD' and all you gave was some boring political ****. ;/

Kireiina
Posted - 2011.03.09 02:34:00 - [22]
 


It's not mud-slinging if you actually are an idiot. And some of your ideas could easily be taken as evidence, especially since Helen is pretty sharp.

But it is fairly clear what you actually want. You want to be an amateur game designer, you want to go to iceland and play the CSM game the way CCP wants it played and your lack of tangible results will be hidden behind the NDA. I'd much rather the CSM grew some teeth.

How you can actually show your face in public while trying to *buy* votes astounds me. And "crowd-sourcing" is a pretty flagrant attempt to sell the dream that the CSM is all about getting "my pet idea" adapted.


Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.09 02:36:00 - [23]
 

Trebor, I'd like to ask about your game experiences and contributions.

I think it's safe to say that Mittani is running alongside you in terms of popularity. His thread has attracted over 300 hundred replies. The bulk of his experience comes from playing for a couple of years and in that time refining spy politics. He moved on to writing a column for Ten Ton Hammer, wherein he makes statements about the state of the game un no uncertain terms, and today runs one of the largest alliances in the game, and now has his eyes on having the chair position.

Seleene has experience as a player for one of the more successful alliances in Eve, a CSM deligate, an employee, and now wishes to sit on the CSM, with little stated for aspirations for chairing. Any reasonable player can see that he's a solid contender with broad experience; he's earned the endorsment of yourself and Mittani as a possible member of the CSM.

Many of the current delegates have suggested that you'd make a good chair candidate, and you appear to be aspiring toward this position. Can you summerize the scope of your eve experience? Include your CSM work - I think we'd like a complete snapshot!

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.03.09 03:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kireiina
But it is fairly clear what you actually want. You want to be an amateur game designer


LOL? Being a professional game designer isn't enough?

Quote:
How you can actually show your face in public while trying to *buy* votes astounds me.


He is only buying votes because he doesn't have a null sec coalition ready to vote for whoever he tells them to vote for.

Courthouse
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.09 04:10:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn


He is only buying votes because he doesn't have a null sec coalition ready to vote for whoever he tells them to vote for.



Last I checked Init was a pretty sizable bloc. Also EVE doesn't have political parties, which largely do the same thing. Democracy is inherently a selfish expression of opinions as the voters are asked to back the candidate that best represents their own personal goals or ideals. It is inherent in the process that people will rally around a candidate that focuses on their aspirations.

Labeling the nullsec blocs in that way is spinsterish at best and ignores the heart of the democratic process in allowing voters to choose the candidate that best suits them, rather than the candidate that best suits you.

Blocs will vote for their internally raised candidates precisely because they represent the goals and/or ideals that the bloc stands for.

Likewise empire voters and lowsec voters should, and do, rally behind candidates that espouse the ideals of the players in those areas.

My critique of Trebor was based on research conducted on his own public comments and the reports of people who had a close working relationship with him. I was careful to be concise and presented the material in a manner that reflected the audiences I was speaking to.

The end result is that Trebor is a bad choice for CSM for anyone who wishes to continue the success that CSM 5 started in terms of having a receptive CCP staff who would actually pay attention to and use the CSM as a stakeholder development partner.

As the stakes go up, so should the scrutiny of the CSM candidates. If this were CSM 3 and we knew that CCP, in fact, didn't give a ray's ass about the CSM, then this would be unnecessary.

For the record I voted for Mittani once and Vile Rat three times. Commence the 'mittani alt' trolling.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.09 05:15:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Kireiina
But it is fairly clear what you actually want. You want to be an amateur game designer


LOL? Being a professional game designer isn't enough?



Most everyone else that has ran for CSM in the past claims to be a game designer/programmer.

Why should I believe this guy?

Minerva Seraph
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.09 05:29:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Courthouse
Originally by: Mara Rinn


He is only buying votes because he doesn't have a null sec coalition ready to vote for whoever he tells them to vote for.



Last I checked Init was a pretty sizable bloc. Also EVE doesn't have political parties, which largely do the same thing. Democracy is inherently a selfish expression of opinions as the voters are asked to back the candidate that best represents their own personal goals or ideals. It is inherent in the process that people will rally around a candidate that focuses on their aspirations.

Labeling the nullsec blocs in that way is spinsterish at best and ignores the heart of the democratic process in allowing voters to choose the candidate that best suits them, rather than the candidate that best suits you.

Blocs will vote for their internally raised candidates precisely because they represent the goals and/or ideals that the bloc stands for.

Likewise empire voters and lowsec voters should, and do, rally behind candidates that espouse the ideals of the players in those areas.

My critique of Trebor was based on research conducted on his own public comments and the reports of people who had a close working relationship with him. I was careful to be concise and presented the material in a manner that reflected the audiences I was speaking to.

The end result is that Trebor is a bad choice for CSM for anyone who wishes to continue the success that CSM 5 started in terms of having a receptive CCP staff who would actually pay attention to and use the CSM as a stakeholder development partner.

As the stakes go up, so should the scrutiny of the CSM candidates. If this were CSM 3 and we knew that CCP, in fact, didn't give a ray's ass about the CSM, then this would be unnecessary.

For the record I voted for Mittani once and Vile Rat three times. Commence the 'mittani alt' trolling.


Courthouse, for what it's worth, I can appreciate you digging up the details, but I was concerned with the way you presented details that weren't volunteered in the public record first, and second, the way you volunteered the opinion of someone who is running but who was not interested in having their own opinions aired out.

You packaged things up in a way that people will hear it? That's a half-hearted description of finding a way to run a scandal rag-quality series of posts. "Look at how bad this guy is! He even does that, oh what a rube!" If you have reason to question a candidate, use their post as a reason to ask about their views - let them answer (or optionally, hang themselves) for it.

Hey guys, I think I'll post a thread now.

Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2011.03.09 05:35:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Courthouse
Originally by: Mara Rinn


He is only buying votes because he doesn't have a null sec coalition ready to vote for whoever he tells them to vote for.



Last I checked Init was a pretty sizable bloc. Also EVE doesn't have political parties, which largely do the same thing. Democracy is inherently a selfish expression of opinions as the voters are asked to back the candidate that best represents their own personal goals or ideals. It is inherent in the process that people will rally around a candidate that focuses on their aspirations.

Labeling the nullsec blocs in that way is spinsterish at best and ignores the heart of the democratic process in allowing voters to choose the candidate that best suits them, rather than the candidate that best suits you.

Blocs will vote for their internally raised candidates precisely because they represent the goals and/or ideals that the bloc stands for.

Likewise empire voters and lowsec voters should, and do, rally behind candidates that espouse the ideals of the players in those areas.

My critique of Trebor was based on research conducted on his own public comments and the reports of people who had a close working relationship with him. I was careful to be concise and presented the material in a manner that reflected the audiences I was speaking to.

The end result is that Trebor is a bad choice for CSM for anyone who wishes to continue the success that CSM 5 started in terms of having a receptive CCP staff who would actually pay attention to and use the CSM as a stakeholder development partner.

As the stakes go up, so should the scrutiny of the CSM candidates. If this were CSM 3 and we knew that CCP, in fact, didn't give a ray's ass about the CSM, then this would be unnecessary.

For the record I voted for Mittani once and Vile Rat three times. Commence the 'mittani alt' trolling.


Quote:
Last I checked Init was a pretty sizable bloc


Quote:
was

Courthouse
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.09 05:56:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Courthouse on 09/03/2011 05:57:11
Originally by: Minerva Seraph
Courthouse, for what it's worth, I can appreciate you digging up the details, but I was concerned with the way you presented details that weren't volunteered in the public record first, and second, the way you volunteered the opinion of someone who is running but who was not interested in having their own opinions aired out.


Helen's opinion was disseminated to other forums by others first. While it hadn't made the rounds at EVEO yet, it was there for interested parties to find. In my view that made it already a part of the public record and I copied it here. I referenced the origin of the record instead of a secondary or tertiary source to remain as credible to the original source as possible.

All information I posted was obtained from public searches of eve-search, SHC, the CSM Wiki hosted on eve-online.com and the relevant links provided from those sources (i.e. his homepage).

Quote:
You packaged things up in a way that people will hear it? That's a half-hearted description of finding a way to run a scandal rag-quality series of posts. "Look at how bad this guy is! He even does that, oh what a rube!" If you have reason to question a candidate, use their post as a reason to ask about their views - let them answer (or optionally, hang themselves) for it.

Hey guys, I think I'll post a thread now.


Trebor had been asked about a few of these 'ideas' before and he avoided answering them, much as he does in many of his 'answers' here, on SHC, etc.

Obviously it would have done no good to directly c/p the post I made to goonfleet.com to here, because the writing reflected the nuances and lingo that readers and posters to goonfleet.com use. I modified the post to SHC and k.com to reflect the audiences there.

I distilled the information down to base factual records with a supported conclusion in my post here such that any criticism could be offered against the barest of facts and not critiques of my grammar/prose/personal bias.

I don't expect people to actually click those links and read the garbage that Trebor has spewed on these forums for the past couple years, let alone come to the same conclusions that I and many others since have come to, but it would be difficult to argue against me via the points I bring up because the lions share of :words: are Trebor's and Helen's, not mine. I merely consolidated them into two concise and pointed posts and offered a logical conclusion based on the information provided.

Did I pick and choose my references? Sure. Eve-search gives 35 pages of responses when you search out Trebor. On SHC he has something like 700+ posts. I couldn't possibly have included all of them because 98% of them are irrelevant to this discourse in the first place.

The ones selected were done so because of the specific relevance to this CSM election and his recorded opinions and ideas on development or balance issues that, as a CSM member, he would have a voice in any future discussions of.

Edit: if there's mud being slung here, it's because Trebor mixed it up, placed it in the launcher and stood in front of it hoping that no one would pull the lever.

I pulled the lever.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.03.09 06:22:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Courthouse
Did I pick and choose my references? Sure ... because of the specific relevance to this ... mud being slung here ...


When you pick and choose, you are editing. As such, you are not presenting the "barest fact" but your own opinion in other's words.


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