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CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.21 10:59:00 - [31]
 

Trolling comments removed

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.03.21 14:15:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
Trolling comments removed



I reported them like 12 days ago, lol


Better late than never, I suppose

Shurikane
Posted - 2011.03.25 13:36:00 - [33]
 

Yep, I can dig that.

However, I would support the idea only if it were to be taken even further.

Hell, as it is, I do not even remotely consider FoF missiles, be it in PVE or PVP. I think they could use a significant boost so as to offset the lack of being able to focus on a target. Either a plain ol' damage or RoF bonus, or a way that, say, a fleet commander could direct the missiles to a target. Some sort of missile-oriented target painter (NOT the TP module as we know it.)

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.25 16:02:00 - [34]
 

All good ideas in principle, but I'm going to make a very general suggestion, which applies far more broadly than this single thread:

CCP pays people to think of this stuff. Those people play the game too. Anytime you have a bright idea that has seemed obvious for years but was never implemented, there's very likely to be an extremely good and well thought-out reason for that.

So, why hasn't this been implemented? Well, off the top of my head there's a balancing act going on here between PvP and PvE. Lots of PvP happens in relatively open space, where the vast majority of objects are ships. PvE on the other hand tends to happen in very crowded bubbles of LCOs. I put forward that this is by design.

FoF missiles are used (not often but they are used) in PvP where lots of ECM is going on, and they do provide at least some dps to the enemy while your alternative is to sit there doing nothing. FoF missiles are not used at all in PvE because they're useless in PvE, and they're meant to be.

The reason why is obvious. Bots. Any change that makes FoF missiles at all useful in PvE is more help to bots than to anyone else.

This doesn't just go for FoF missiles by the way. There are all sorts of elements of Eve that could stand for vast improvement, but cannot be implemented without making mission botting easier. And anything that accomplishes that, even tangentially, is a non-starter. I can only conclude therefore that CCP has decided that the current implementation of FoF missiles is the best of a bad situation. PvPers can use them, and PvEers can't.

Just think of what could be accomplished in improvements to Eve Online if we didn't have to worry about bots and RTMers... They truly are our worst enemy.

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.25 16:07:00 - [35]
 

Also, they should be named FaF missiles, which are in reality a type of missile still used today, but it's older tech from before the days of laser-guidance. Old-style heat-seeking missiles are FaF. Launch, and it seeks out the hottest target around.

Fire and Forget

Sometimes those would come back to bite you in the rear too.

Shurikane
Posted - 2011.03.25 16:30:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Esan Vartesa
CCP pays people to think of this stuff. Those people play the game too. Anytime you have a bright idea that has seemed obvious for years but was never implemented, there's very likely to be an extremely good and well thought-out reason for that.

Not necessarily. By experience, some features can just never make it into software because of lack of time and/or higher-priority stuff piling up on top. Funny as it sounds, several hundred people can and will fail to think of a particular thing. Case in point, the very, very famous Goonswarm station-flip story.

Quote:
So, why hasn't this been implemented? Well, off the top of my head there's a balancing act going on here between PvP and PvE. Lots of PvP happens in relatively open space, where the vast majority of objects are ships. PvE on the other hand tends to happen in very crowded bubbles of LCOs. I put forward that this is by design.

FoF missiles are used (not often but they are used) in PvP where lots of ECM is going on, and they do provide at least some dps to the enemy while your alternative is to sit there doing nothing. FoF missiles are not used at all in PvE because they're useless in PvE, and they're meant to be.

Although, they can find some use in fights against sleepers or incursive Sansha since those provide a more PVP-like experience, and therefore FoF missiles might be a potentially fair tradeoff. The actual problem, I believe, stems from said missiles being very situational - too much for them to be worth carrying. In a gang battle, I won't care much if I am jammed since my fleetmates will still be targeting and pounding the enemy away. AoE jammer or lock-bombs? Now we're talking - but I don't think it happens often enough to give FoFs a chance to shine. The crux at hand is finding them a good niche and placing them into it. Somewhere I can think "Is it worth it to take missiles that don't need targeting, at the expense of not being able to choose where they head?" That was why I was suggesting for a module that could maybe guide them somewhere, some way to de-FoF them a little bit at the expense of turning your target-man into a single point of failure. Ideas to kick around.

Quote:
The reason why is obvious. Bots.

ummmmmmmmmm, no. Laughing

Since people are so utterly convinced that every nullsec alliance ever is a buncha bots, what's it gonna change to make them not need to target anything anymore? Oh great, we gave an automatic transmission to a robot that could already drive manual, whoop-dee-doo.

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.25 19:15:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Shurikane

Quote:
The reason why is obvious. Bots.

ummmmmmmmmm, no.

Since people are so utterly convinced that every nullsec alliance ever is a buncha bots, what's it gonna change to make them not need to target anything anymore? Oh great, we gave an automatic transmission to a robot that could already drive manual, whoop-dee-doo.


You're missing the fact that people make decisions based on perception, which is not necessarily always well-grounded in reality.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.03.25 19:46:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Shurikane
Yep, I can dig that.

However, I would support the idea only if it were to be taken even further.

Hell, as it is, I do not even remotely consider FoF missiles, be it in PVE or PVP. I think they could use a significant boost so as to offset the lack of being able to focus on a target. Either a plain ol' damage or RoF bonus, or a way that, say, a fleet commander could direct the missiles to a target. Some sort of missile-oriented target painter (NOT the TP module as we know it.)



The thing is though, I would actually be happy with some kind of reduced attribute to compensate for more intelligent target selection (damage is of course the obvious candidate, but RoF is another to consider). Let me give an example, which is true for me, in the use of FoF missiles;

    As an intrepid capsuleer I love exploration, and regularly carry FoF Hydras with me in my Tengu

    As well as being an intrepid capsuleer, I am also incredibly lazy Rolling Eyes

    To that end, I fit the good ol' launchers with FoF missiles in readiness for the mass of frigs and cruisers that populate high/low sec sites

    The (to me, lazy remember) ability for the launchers to automatically decimate these tiny rats with reduced damage (compared to regular Scourge) is a more than fair trade. True, I do a significantly smaller amount of damage compared to the regular missiles. But it's saved me having to bloody target millions of red crosses(talking here about selecting rats, not about the US military bombing friendly/neutral forces/NGOs etc lol)



As I think I mentioned before, I don't want to be seen to be forcing this issue just for my own benefit lol...I'm more than happy to accept a trade off :)

Aveneo
SkyNet Technologies Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.28 17:18:00 - [39]
 

I just want them to hit enemy targets, not the npc convoy ship I needed to protect during a mission because it happened to be the closest in range Sad

I mean what use is the distinction of a Friend or Foe missile when it can't even distinguish friend from foe?

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.03.29 19:36:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Aveneo
I just want them to hit enemy targets, not the npc convoy ship I needed to protect during a mission because it happened to be the closest in range Sad

I mean what use is the distinction of a Friend or Foe missile when it can't even distinguish friend from foe?


Exactly! Your heart just sinks when you realise that this is the best technology that the 23rd millenium can offer Laughing

I think that the lack of somehow differentiating targets would be of help; you can understand them targeting LCOs and whatnot (though you may seethe inwardly), but attacking 'friendly' NPCs and logisitic drones? No way!


Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.30 04:45:00 - [41]
 

I would say FoF always hits enemy targets, but when ECM'd they just hit something.

It seems like a fair tradeoff. Lower DPS but no target required. Can work even when jammed, but you might hit allies.

The only reason I don't like the idea myself is essentially being jammed while using FoF is the same as current, but I do think it makes sense to have some effect since a FoF does use electronics. Perhaps changing it to reduced effectiveness while jammed would do it.

Also, if FoF technology becomes more implemented properly and balanced, it puts hacking as a possible PvP subskill (Mess with FF codes, Fake ally FF, etc).


Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.04 07:14:00 - [42]
 

FOF certainly need to be looked at again by CCP, that is certainly something we can all agree on. Laughing

Jaik7
Posted - 2011.04.04 15:36:00 - [43]
 

make it more specific, like a box for falcon, kitsune, scorpion, blackbird, griffin, ect.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.04 19:22:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Jaik7
make it more specific, like a box for falcon, kitsune, scorpion, blackbird, griffin, ect.



Interesting that you went for a really specific option - I'd be happy to see a more generalised set of targeting options but I suspect that what you suggest would make it a little OP.

Thanks for your support though! Very Happy

GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.05 12:25:00 - [45]
 

well well well.. some ideas on here are more promising than others i have to say!

Esan has some fair comments, and yes the initial design of FOF missiles mirrors RL fof systems but im also in agreement with Bumblefck about the fact its 20th century tech and not untra futuristic tech so here is my reformed ideas on this.

FOF's should be a 2 fold system. on the 1 hand they shouldnt require the use of the ships sensors in PVP but there should be some tie-in to ships sensors when your ship isn't being ECM'd.

so basically when ur not being ecm'd FOF missiles should seek out targets set out on the currently active overview regardless of whether they're locked or not. bt not in any particular order. FOF's should also seek and hit other combat related things like missiles and drones sort of in the way defender missiles do.

when you are being ecm'd though anything thats not broadcasing a FOF signal, aka things that are set as blue will be a valid target, whether theyre LCO's or not.
FOF missile behavior while you're ECM'd should act much like NBSI with a show all overview for itself.

i would add that the FOF damage should be reduced for balancing.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:01:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
well well well.. some ideas on here are more promising than others i have to say!

Esan has some fair comments, and yes the initial design of FOF missiles mirrors RL fof systems but im also in agreement with Bumblefck about the fact its 20th century tech and not untra futuristic tech so here is my reformed ideas on this.

FOF's should be a 2 fold system. on the 1 hand they shouldnt require the use of the ships sensors in PVP but there should be some tie-in to ships sensors when your ship isn't being ECM'd.

so basically when ur not being ecm'd FOF missiles should seek out targets set out on the currently active overview regardless of whether they're locked or not. bt not in any particular order. FOF's should also seek and hit other combat related things like missiles and drones sort of in the way defender missiles do.

when you are being ecm'd though anything thats not broadcasing a FOF signal, aka things that are set as blue will be a valid target, whether theyre LCO's or not.
FOF missile behavior while you're ECM'd should act much like NBSI with a show all overview for itself.

i would add that the FOF damage should be reduced for balancing.



Interesting points! Thanks for your contribution Smile I think a big difficulty is somehow reconciling the suggested improvements with the danger of them becoming overpowered, but as you have said (and I agree with you, having said it a few times so far Laughing) reducing their damage output to compensate would probably work wonders.

Again thanks for the input and we're getting some good discussion here! Very Happy

EnthusiGASM
Posted - 2011.04.11 04:16:00 - [47]
 


Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2011.04.11 11:05:00 - [48]
 

I can support this.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.11 18:41:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: EnthusiGASM
null



Originally by: Carniflex
I can support this.



Thank you both for your support - I hope that together we can help fix FOF missiles and make them a weapon system to be proud of!

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.13 13:16:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha
I would say FoF always hits enemy targets, but when ECM'd they just hit something.

It seems like a fair tradeoff. Lower DPS but no target required. Can work even when jammed, but you might hit allies.

The only reason I don't like the idea myself is essentially being jammed while using FoF is the same as current, but I do think it makes sense to have some effect since a FoF does use electronics. Perhaps changing it to reduced effectiveness while jammed would do it.

Also, if FoF technology becomes more implemented properly and balanced, it puts hacking as a possible PvP subskill (Mess with FF codes, Fake ally FF, etc).




I bolded your points in particular that I agree with - the ones in italics made me go 'wtf?' initially, but I think that it could make for an interesting sub-division of skill training. However, I believe that this latter point is probably beyond the purview of my thread Smile

Thanks for your comment!

DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar
Republic University

Posted - 2011.04.14 22:31:00 - [51]
 

2 thumbs up

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.15 08:21:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: DeMichael Crimson
2 thumbs up



Merci beaucoup

Vielen Dank

Arigato gozaimasu


Very Happy

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.22 20:15:00 - [53]
 

Went away on work for a week - had hoped to see a few more supports, but you know, you've just got to get the message out there! Very Happy

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.27 14:50:00 - [54]
 

For great justice, this returns to the top. Let's make FOF missiles a great weapon system we would be proud to use, and not the pathetic sub-hybrid joke they are now Crying or Very sadVery Happy


Alias 6322A
Posted - 2011.04.27 15:40:00 - [55]
 

In all honesty, FoF missiles need to changed to one of two types:

Guided: They attack only enemies, regardless of target lock, but are significantly weaker due to this advantage. (Change: only attacks enemies, stats stay same)

FoF Powered: They attack any and all ships, are/almost are comparable to the 'standard' version of their size in damage. (Change: Not the best option for Gang/Fleet due to FoF nature, good for solo PvP, can be used in missions but still not preferred)

I personally like the second, which keeps the original nature intact (Friend or Foe). I would suggest that if the missiles are brought to full power of typical missiles, which would certainly help them be useful, that they have penalties like T2 ammo did to render them not as useful for mission running. This could be as simple as more PG/CPU needed, or some other factor. The point is FoF was designed as a counter to ewar for missile ships.

Ewar is primarily a PvP type of combat, though there are missions that ewar can be a real pain in the butt. Missions such as these could benefit from FoF missiles as an alternative, but by and large the missiles need to be intended for solo PvP or PvP in general. Effectively, you give missile users three types of missiles: assaults (short and powerful), typicals (long and slow), and FoF (ewar counter).

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.27 15:52:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Alias 6322A
In all honesty, FoF missiles need to changed to one of two types:

Guided: They attack only enemies, regardless of target lock, but are significantly weaker due to this advantage. (Change: only attacks enemies, stats stay same)

FoF Powered: They attack any and all ships, are/almost are comparable to the 'standard' version of their size in damage. (Change: Not the best option for Gang/Fleet due to FoF nature, good for solo PvP, can be used in missions but still not preferred)

I personally like the second, which keeps the original nature intact (Friend or Foe). I would suggest that if the missiles are brought to full power of typical missiles, which would certainly help them be useful, that they have penalties like T2 ammo did to render them not as useful for mission running. This could be as simple as more PG/CPU needed, or some other factor. The point is FoF was designed as a counter to ewar for missile ships.

Ewar is primarily a PvP type of combat, though there are missions that ewar can be a real pain in the butt. Missions such as these could benefit from FoF missiles as an alternative, but by and large the missiles need to be intended for solo PvP or PvP in general. Effectively, you give missile users three types of missiles: assaults (short and powerful), typicals (long and slow), and FoF (ewar counter).


I quite like your ideas and would say that your first idea is perhaps closest to my original proposal :)

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.04.28 00:55:00 - [57]
 

You should require at least some piloting skills to kill a Falcon instead of pressing one button.
Not supported ofc.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.28 07:38:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
You should require at least some piloting skills to kill a Falcon instead of pressing one button.
Not supported ofc.


This has bloody nothing to do with Falcons, you muppet - if you'd read the OP, you would've seen that the issue is about FOF missiles targeting crap like LCOs. Now back under your bridge! Rolling Eyes

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.05.04 14:54:00 - [59]
 

Up to the top for great justice.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.05.05 17:56:00 - [60]
 

I long for the day when FOF missiles are the new projectiles Laughing


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