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blankseplocked A Public Letter to CCP From CSM5 About Incarna
 
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Market Wench
Posted - 2011.03.10 20:22:00 - [91]
 

There's nothing in this that wasn't obvious to most people the day the Vamps-in-stations tech demo was announced, but despite that I can still imagine CCP devs all sitting around a table tucking into their rotted shark and rolling their eyes at all those silly EVE players who lack their 'vision'.

Honestly I hope they just get the damn thing out as quickly as possible and with as little damage to the existing station interface as possible. That way they can forget about it as quickly as possible, just like every other expansion feature of recent years.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.11 01:22:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Cearain
No one doubts that incarna will add players who would like a game where they walk around in a space station. But at least as of June of 2010 that was not our playerbase. Indeed it’s pretty clear that the time and resources spent on incarna will cost eve at least some of its current players.

There are many players who continue to play with the hope that ccp will someday improve whatever it is they currently do. (For me its faction war.) The June summit minutes forced everyone to realize that whatever it is they would like done will almost certainly not get done for 18 months. That sucked to hear and more than a few quit. But some of us have decided to ride out the 18 months.

Now we get a csm letter that says “flesh out incarna” which can be interpreted as asking that they should do more with it than they already planned. Well … no. That is the complete opposite of the views of the players that I had read back in June.

I'm glad you're so in touch with The Playerbase, even more so than the players themselves are... For a moment there I was convinced me and many, many other players I've talked to really wanted Incarna to be a success.

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.03.11 01:51:00 - [93]
 

as i saw almost only fanboys on the coments of the CQ devblogs, i began to though that i was alone thinking there were something wrong here...
seems i was not.

there will be no use to CQ with the initial release, except the 1st minutes of discoveries of the superb graphics, and playing on the room with your shiny avatar finally moving.

but what's worry me mostly here, is that you seems to say that we will be forced to activate CQ after the patch... while i really don't want to.

i remember well when i anchored my 1st pos, on high sec, on abudan (do'nt remember the typo), à ice belt system 1 jump from rens allowing RD pos, that one of his interest was to gain time with no undocking while mining.

i don't stay on jita when i'm doing business, i'm almost always on a safe 1 jump from jita, cause there way too much lag on jita, and being docked on 4-4 is awful.

i don't even want to think about what would happen if i have to be on captain quarter of jita 4-4... would be a nightmare.

i'm very interested by what we can gain with incarna, but i don't want some shiny graphics, but no gameplay and only lost time when docking.

i'm really not on pvp, but honstly i would prefer having pvp as only activity on incarna than nothing.
just give us an option to not unpod or be on a safe place if forced to, and i will happily go fight my comrades. cause hell i don't risk to lost my shiny ship here, and i suppose my vest and boots won't cost me that much to buy back after being killed.

if we have to go to QC when docking at least give us some minigames. it will only ask you a few hours of coding, and will change lots of things.
the webbroswer on the big wall of our CQ, some cards games, and why not a oldie arcade game lying somewhere. it's always better than nothing. and moreover people won't have to alt-tab to do that if you add them ingame, while if done well can give a lot of immersion.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.11 05:09:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 11/03/2011 05:12:49
Edited by: Cearain on 11/03/2011 05:11:36
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
I'm glad you're so in touch with The Playerbase, even more so than the players themselves are... For a moment there I was convinced me and many, many other players I've talked to really wanted Incarna to be a success.


Of course everyone wants incarna to be a success. No one is hoping for failure.

If the outcry after the June csm minutes was not because ccp was taking so long and using so many resources on incarna and therefore ignoring the rest of eve, what was it about?

Or do you not think anything happened after the June minutes were published?

I really don't think what I said is controversial.



Jame Jarl Retief
Posted - 2011.03.14 14:13:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: William Loire
I'm not exactly referring to the CSM letter so much as most of the responses in this thread. You know when Incarna was first announced five years ago, I remember there being very little objection, I didn't see much support but the "this is a spaceship game" bitter vets mostly kept to themselves except for the odd post. Back then there was no capital sunk into Incarna, we weren't just about to receive the product.Now skip ahead to about a year ago. Incarna is about a year from it's initial release we now know. three to four years of development time, resources and capital already in use and suddenly the player base unites against the concept?


That's because the concept keeps changing. Back when Incarna was announced (when it was called "Walking in Stations" and before it was called "Ambulation"...or was it the other way around?) we didn't have to worry about a lot of stuff. For example the NVidia APEX clothing and so on. Back when Incarna was announced 5 years ago, APEX didn't exist. There was also no mention of a new character creator, if I remember correctly. Etc., etc.

What started out as "you'll be able to walk around the place in a year or two" turned into 5 years of waiting, at the end of which all you get is a character creator and 6 months later captain's quarters - a single room, where you can walk around (hopefully).

If, 5 years ago, CCP said "5 years from now you'll get a new char creator and a tiny room to walk around in", do you really think people would have been supportive back then? I highly doubt it. Back then people were shown what was essentially a pipe dream that we've yet to see materialize.

Personally I'm hoping CCP can "flesh out" Incarna within this year. Not just QC, but stations, etc. If they manage it, fine and dandy. But if it's going to take any longer, with other features obviously broken or neglected? I'm not sure the payoff will be worth it. If there IS a payoff at all, there are no guarantees in this business.


Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.03.14 16:10:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Bring Stabity
Incarna is a dumb waste of time in a game with overwhelming gameplay issues that need addressing over an expansion that is 90% cosmetic and won't fix any problems. If only mazzillu realized this then that is really depressing.


pretty sure what mazz realized is what an NDA is
Except that nothing in the open letter isn't public knowledge and therefore not under NDA, unless the NDA magically means saying nice things about CCP all the time.


this has nothing to do with an NDA

it has everything to do with alienation.

see, the csm has benefited greatly from ****storms aimed at ccp. the summer rage meant ccp gave the csm big cookies to help deal with the player concerns, and i think that the csm sort of hopes that this will happen again.

That's stupid and it won't, because this is completely different than the summer PR incident. first of all in the summer the rage was aimed at the higherups who have the power to make major changes. this letter is trying to start a ****storm directed at the grunts of ccp, and it's telling because it speaks about implementation details. it's not going to work because those grunts of ccp aren't directly beholden to the media, and they aren't required to answer to the CSM or include them in operational details. it's also entirely the wrong way to go about it since they will take it as an insult to their livelihood. incarna to you is a game, incarna to them is a way to feed themselves, and they will do anything to keep that from being jeopardized.

devs aren't required to give the csm so much as the time of day, they only do it if they want to. and they're only going to do it if they think it's safe. we've proven ourselves willing to start pr **** when we don't get our way so this isn't going to help their willingness to deal with us. Thankfully most of us are leaving office, especially the people who were behind this. trebor and helen were supportive of the letter though, something voters might want to keep in mind.

i signed my name to the private letter because i agree with its points, but i'm not going to associate myself with the public letter. even if we get our way it isn't worth the risk that we go back to being csm-in-the-dark that we were during the csm 1-4.

this is stupid; i cant believe i'm the only person who thinks this; screw you guys im goin home

Mazz, you're ignoring the part where CCP itself is divided on Incarna. You know very well that it's only the so-called team awesome (Noah Ward and co) that is ignoring the CSM. The rest of CCP seem to have had no problem with CSM and most seem to have behaved very professionally.

It is your opinion that cuddling up to Noah and co will somehow change things, but it certainly isn't anyone else's. For those who are interested, this is what an interview with that part of CCP looks like.

So no, I don't think it's supadum.

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.03.17 19:56:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks

Mazz, you're ignoring the part where CCP itself is divided on Incarna. You know very well that it's only the so-called team awesome (Noah Ward and co) that is ignoring the CSM. The rest of CCP seem to have had no problem with CSM and most seem to have behaved very professionally.

It is your opinion that cuddling up to Noah and co will somehow change things, but it certainly isn't anyone else's. For those who are interested, this is what an interview with that part of CCP looks like.

So no, I don't think it's supadum.

trying to put words in my mouth about what my opinion is

that isnt my opinion, thats your imagination talking.

Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:34:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Tehg Rhind on 18/03/2011 00:52:13
I have generally been critical of the overly agressive tone that CSM5 took and don't believe that it (the tone) accomplished as much as some people believe. However, I don't think this letter has that same problem. A better way of caging it might have been as a farewell deathbed request kind of thing, but in general not bad.

As for the whole Incarna thing, I dunno, I just don't see what the big deal is. Ok, if it's forced that's a problem, but I seriously doub it will be. Think about trading for instance. The current skill mechanics don't even require you to be in a station to trade. Same goes for research. The idea of having to switch to a different interface to quick fit is ridiculous and would cause so many problems. Now, maybe for some things like....I dunno.:..I actually can't think of a current mechanic that wouldn't be hurt by forcing it to be done through a different interface.

So, while I agree that they shouldn't force it, I don't see for a second how they could without completely breaking the game. And I'm not talking about the whiny PI/FW/Jump Bridges/ whatever are broken/breaking the game wahhhh. I mean it would irrevocably destroy the game.

Anyways, if all they want is to use it as a method of stress testing it they just need to add the ability to punch and/or teabag someone and then 90% of the player base will spend their docked time doing that.

As for complaints about it being a tool for another game and/or a waste of dev time etc, that's just shortsighted. WoD may end up being one of the best things to happen to EvE. If it is succesful then CCP, a relatively small private development firm, is looking at arguably doubling it's revenue stream. If you don't think that's a positive for EvE you are mistaken. Savings on shared overhead alone will free up so many resources. Dev team for forums? Only need one. Human resources? Only need one. Rotten shark cook? Only need one.

This is a GOOD thing. More money means more options for things like upgrading the servers.

Oh but we haven't been getting good updates recently!!

Seriously? Yeah, you have. Wormholes, awesome. Incursions, pretty neat. Tyrannis. Ok, tyrannis had problems, but it also involved arguably the largest number of changes to the economy and industry of EvE in any expansion, ever. The fact that the markets didn't completely explode is a testament to the quality. I still have no clue how they did that, the math behind it is absolutely PhD level staggering. I have problems controlling 3 variable systems and getting what I want. Edit: And the end results to the economy were exceptionally good. Removing the mineral floor created by insurance fraud was awesome. And each time the EvE market is pushed towards 0 NPC market orders I get a little lump in my throat as I raise a glass to some amazing designers.

But everyone has this short sighted "what have you done for me lately" attitude where they only see what affects them and if they don't like it they will jump on the whaaambulance and threaten to quit. There is no design change too small to incur the 'time to quit' attitude. It's the same thing gamers always do, just look at L4D2. The amazing thing is that gamers often have so little self awareness that they cry wolf every week or two and don't realize that people stopped listening years ago. Which sucks when there really is a wolf.

Some companies bend over backwards for this nonsense. One of them is Blizzard. Ironically, their incessant pandering only results in the terrible mess of a product they now have. I for one am glad that CCP holds itself to higher standards.


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