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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:13:00 - [1]
 

Inspired by this thread.

Ive been thinking about a few ways to rebalance mines so they could be returned to the game. Now as far as i can see there are 3 main issues, 1 server related, 1 gameplay related and 1 mechanics related.

Server related - mine spam causing lag
proposed solution - instead of individual mines have markers that designate mine fields, one marker per field, preset sizes determined either by size of mines used (S,M or L) or amount of mines (one size of ammunition and each field uses a set number depending on its size).

Mine fields would only last for a certain time and also have a preset limit on the number of attacks they could make before disappearing.

Mechanics related - players laying mines then jumping into high sec and getting concorded when mines go off even though the mines themselves are not in high sec.

Proposed solution - mines only remain active while the ship that laid them is within the same system, if the ship leaves the system all mines it laid detonate immediatly with no effect.

Gameplay related - Mines being used as easy blocks against cloakers trying to run gate camps.

Proposed solution - mines could not be laid within a certain distance (i personally suggest 20km) of stargates and stations, explained in lore as the mines targeting AI requiring a certain distance from the nearest structure to be able to function correctly. This allows uses such as protecting gate camp sniping spots and disrupting off gate warpins whilest still addressing the origional issue.

This si just an inital post, ill put more up once ive given it some more thought.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.08 01:17:00 - [2]
 

One thing I havent really been able to decide yet is how visible to make minefield markers to neutral/hostile pilots. Im leaning towards requiring a specialised module to be able to detect minefields, probably something like

Minefield Sensor Array
Slot - High
CPU - 150
Powergrid - 10
Required Skills - Minefield Detection 1

Reveals all minefield markers within 15km of scanning ship

Skill - Minefield Detection
15% bonus per level to range of minefield scanning arrays once level 2 is trained
(Max range 27.5km at level 5)
Prereqs - Science 4, Astrometrics 3

I would also either give destroyers an additional role bonus of a 90% reduction in CPU requirements and 500% range bonus for minefield scanning arrays or create a new destroyer class vessel which included that bonus.

Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.08 02:26:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Darek Castigatus
Server related - mine spam causing lag
Why would they cause more lag than a Sentry Drone/Smartbomb?

Originally by: Darek Castigatus
Mechanics related - players laying mines then jumping into high sec and getting concorded when mines go off even though the mines themselves are not in high sec.

Alternate solution - Make them a Deployable object that can only be deployed for Corp and have the kills associated with the Corp, much like POS Towers

Originally by: Darek Castigatus
Gameplay related - Mines being used as easy blocks against cloakers trying to run gate camps.

Proposed solution - mines could not be laid within a certain distance (i personally suggest 20km) of stargates and stations, explained in lore as the mines targeting AI requiring a certain distance from the nearest structure to be able to function correctly. This allows uses such as protecting gate camp sniping spots and disrupting off gate warpins whilest still addressing the origional issue.

This si just an inital post, ill put more up once ive given it some more thought.

Depending on the range of them and the trigger, if someone is cloaked then should be able to go past a mine without triggering them, unless they get within 2KM.

I would have them unable to be anchored within 5KM of any field too(ie forcefields/bubbles)

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.08 03:19:00 - [4]
 

cba to c&p the quotes

If you're going to have a 20km limitation to placing them around stargates or stations, rather than saying "you can't put them here" or w/e, if you do place them there, have them immediately explode, and trigger all other mines in their effective radius. Let the layer beware, as it were.

Also, that mod should be a midslot, not high, just like all other scanners and detectors. And yes, they should not detonate unless a cloaky gets uncloaked within 2km.

As it is, I think this needs a lot more thinking out. Putting in new skills and new mods for something that has an extremely limited use seems quite pointless.

Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.08 04:19:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Darek Castigatus
Inspired by this thread.

Ive been thinking about a few ways to rebalance mines so they could be returned to the game. Now as far as i can see there are 3 main issues, 1 server related, 1 gameplay related and 1 mechanics related.

Server related - mine spam causing lag
proposed solution - instead of individual mines have markers that designate mine fields, one marker per field, preset sizes determined either by size of mines used (S,M or L) or amount of mines (one size of ammunition and each field uses a set number depending on its size).

Mine fields would only last for a certain time and also have a preset limit on the number of attacks they could make before disappearing.

Mechanics related - players laying mines then jumping into high sec and getting concorded when mines go off even though the mines themselves are not in high sec.

Proposed solution - mines only remain active while the ship that laid them is within the same system, if the ship leaves the system all mines it laid detonate immediatly with no effect.

Gameplay related - Mines being used as easy blocks against cloakers trying to run gate camps.

Proposed solution - mines could not be laid within a certain distance (i personally suggest 20km) of stargates and stations, explained in lore as the mines targeting AI requiring a certain distance from the nearest structure to be able to function correctly. This allows uses such as protecting gate camp sniping spots and disrupting off gate warpins whilest still addressing the origional issue.

This si just an inital post, ill put more up once ive given it some more thought.


There are a few holes I'd like to poke in your ideas. For your first point you'd run into a situation where, instead of mine spam, you'd run into mine field spams. Where people would just stack and stack lots and lots of mine fields on top of each other.

Your second point. The point of Mine Fields are to be able to defend an area where you're not force yourself to be there. Also, what does it matter if you're ship is still there. Its your character that is criminalized. Which makes it difficult to jump clone. Personally, I think all kills in null sec should not criminalize you and that would solve it

KlintortheDestroyer
Posted - 2011.03.08 04:48:00 - [6]
 

heres a few more stipulations that come to mind

mines last 1-5 minutes and player can only lay 1-5 mines (as a short term ambush tactic vs multiple enemies chasing down a solitary player (this would be good for astrometrics frigs t2 military pvp job) mines require 1 low slot to activate as they would most likely be jettisoned like "cargo"

also to prevent mine spam, nearby mines cannot be closer than their explosion radius or they will detonate both mines (so someone with mwd/inertia can hit multiple mines but someone that bumps into one slowly will not take both mines)

mines cannot be placed near any structures/gates/mishes etc or they will explode (call concorde/faction generals to kill the mine layer) mine laying in .7-.8 will get concord scout sweepers on you, .9-10 will get swat/battleships after they scan the system and detect the mines 20-1 minute (chance for hurting concorde scouts looking for mines will also charge you with more sec penalty)

mines cannot effect players in warp/coming out of warp/standing still after jump/warp/etc (use mine detector/deactivator to disable mines or hacking codebreaker to make mines yours/then scoop)

mines that explode in .5-.6 sec will deploy concord npcs or faction custom generals to search out area to destroy wanted mine layers and deactivate mines (so a mine layer warping into .5 can lay a few mines and then go back to .4 but will be hated more if return (and mines detonated/ found by concord, out of sec kills are applied)

advanced mine V allows corps to lay mines as permanent defensive perimeter for their wormholes/contested/null sec or pirated territory near their base/holdings
(this could be limit 1-5 depending for each member of corp on advanced mine)

if you jettison mines then you cannot jettison cans to prevent spam but you can put your mines near cans of allies/or just near cans in general...too close might detonate the mine however and that will be considered an act of hostility towards enemy corps that you attempted to mine their cans (hit them when they warp back to their cans)

mines can be targeted and shot at from 10km+ away (detonating them will not call concorde unless you injure a non neg player
2-5km should probably be the explosion radius depending on size
mines might attract fof or defender missiles (depending on balance)

perception skill allows players to detect/notice mines before they are too close (the model is always visible/though highly shadowed but computer tracking/overview doesn't notice them except based on perception/implants/ship bonuses/addons etc

Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.08 07:58:00 - [7]
 

The 5 minute thing doesn't really work for null sec. I mean you never know when a raiding party might drop in. Even if you get word of the fight before hand, might wait at the gate an extra 20 minutes so your mines are going to waste. Besides mines should be designed for gates to keep stealth scouts from coming in system and dropping a cyno field

shady trader
Posted - 2011.03.08 11:58:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Caldari 5
Why would they cause more lag than a Sentry Drone/Smartbomb?



The answer to that is simple, in the old days people did not just deploy one or two, they deployed hundreds. This meant (dropping large numbers of objects at say a gate is know an exploit that will get you banned) that when you entered the area of the mine field you touch a couple of seconds to load all the objects, during which time the people who laid the mine field (assuming you did not warp into ground zero of the mine field)are busy blowing holes in your ship. This was all before CCP put a lot of effort in to reducing lag.

Think of the effect of warping in a large ship battle and you get some idea of the lag problem.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.09 00:37:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Darek Castigatus on 09/03/2011 00:40:25
Edited by: Darek Castigatus on 09/03/2011 00:37:42
Originally by: Acac Sunflyier
There are a few holes I'd like to poke in your ideas. For your first point you'd run into a situation where, instead of mine spam, you'd run into mine field spams. Where people would just stack and stack lots and lots of mine fields on top of each other.

Your second point. The point of Mine Fields are to be able to defend an area where you're not force yourself to be there. Also, what does it matter if you're ship is still there. Its your character that is criminalized. Which makes it difficult to jump clone. Personally, I think all kills in null sec should not criminalize you and that would solve it


I think the spam issue is the major one related to mines and i cant really think of a solution that doesnt involve setting unrealistic artificial restrictions beyond saying you cant lay minefields on top of one another. Maybe additional restrictions are what would be needed for them to come back but I think its something that would just have to be lived with to a degree if they reintroduced them.

With regards to the second point i think we have to look at mines in a different way, more in terms of temporary area denial rather than long term area control. The image i have is of ships using mines to aid in defending themselves or hampering others while they do something else within the system rather than empires or alliances using them as a means of system control.

Originally by: Feligast
If you're going to have a 20km limitation to placing them around stargates or stations, rather than saying "you can't put them here" or w/e, if you do place them there, have them immediately explode, and trigger all other mines in their effective radius. Let the layer beware, as it were.



That sounds like a good idea, although i can still see it being abused in some ways.

As for the new skills bit i guess you could just have the module require Science 5 and have a range of 30km and dispense with the skill altogether.


Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who responded so far, nice to see its not just me giving this some thought.

Mike Voidstar
Posted - 2011.03.09 05:36:00 - [10]
 

Simple really.

One Minefeild allowed per grid. Where to put it is a tactical decision, with each race's mines having benefits and disadvantages unique to them.

Mines to be based off of Energy Pulse Weapons. Minefeild duration and max mines determined by the skill. The more mines in a minefeild, the longer it's range and higher it's damage.

Modules to lay mines, and modules to disarm them.

EVE space is obviously harsh---they degrade by losing a random number of mines after 2 hours/level.

I'd say Ideally that the mines target according to standings, with the pilot being able to set them to attack all targets in range, Nuet and Red, Just Red.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.09 18:31:00 - [11]
 

Ill start with the one i dont think will work.
Originally by: Mike Voidstar
One Minefeild allowed per grid. Where to put it is a tactical decision, with each race's mines having benefits and disadvantages unique to them.



First off im trying to avoid setting artificial restrictions as much as possible, the other issue with one field per grid is when people start simply dumping a minefield in some ass end corner of the grid just so their opponant cant drop one anywhere.

Originally by: Mike Voidstar
Mines to be based off of Energy Pulse Weapons. Minefield duration and max mines determined by the skill. The more mines in a minefeild, the longer it's range and higher it's damage.

Modules to lay mines, and modules to disarm them.

EVE space is obviously harsh---they degrade by losing a random number of mines after 2 hours/level.

I'd say Ideally that the mines target according to standings, with the pilot being able to set them to attack all targets in range, Nuet and Red, Just Red.


first off i like that skill suggestion a lot, i hadnt considered it when i was thinking about them. I think as long as we keep the 'laying ship must remain in system' caveat those rules would work fine. Degrading makes sense, especially given the short term area denial feel i want to give them, but im not sure about targeting by standings.

In the vision i have for them ideally you wont be laying mines unless youre sure they will actually get detonated by something you want to hurt. Again it comes back to the fact i dont want to try and make them a long term strategy, just something to give a little extra punch at the tactical level. Having said that it still makes sense even given those ideas, i guess thats something the designers would have to look at themselves.

KlintortheDestroyer
Posted - 2011.03.09 19:37:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: KlintortheDestroyer on 09/03/2011 19:38:29
mining gates is a bad cheap newbkiller idea and is probably why mines were hated so much and complained about by newbs...mining contested roids/deep space stations/hidden bases/moonbases/assets would be better and more corporate/democratic tactic

however gates and jumping are still hot in debate...so perhaps a new system of transportation might be implemented which will make mines more viable

1) hive ships jumping to whatever destination they want (of course being attacked by concord/faction fleets wouldn't be good for their brand new trillion dollar investment

2) also adjusting cyno fields to allow all ship types to lock on and warp into a contested sector would allow for fleets to actually attack/engage/capture/defend and retreat back to triage ships instead of just popping, aggroing or canflipping a newb fleet at a gate

(add small, medium, large, xlarge jump drives for frig, cruiser, bc, bs, etc)


3) micro warping between systems in a single constellation is another idea

4) hub gates which allow amarr prime to hub jump to tashmurkon or hub jump to korazor prime without naviagating the system

5) hidden pirate gates for pirate corps to smuggle and navigate systems without interference between concord (fleet mission could be to find and destroy these Player Owned gates)

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.12 11:36:00 - [13]
 

Klintor that has nothing to do with mines, make your own thread for it if you want peoples feedback.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.03.12 11:48:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Glyken Touchon on 12/03/2011 11:51:34
I like the minefield "beacon" idea.

Some brainstorm ideas (haven't considered what implications these may have)

Give the initial laying a 10% (tweak numbers as required) chance of hitting anything within a radius, with additional mines on the same beacon increasing hit chance by 2% using the same method as for standings/resists etc, so diminishing returns.

Only allow the creating character to add to the beacon, and only allow 1 beacon on grid per character. If the character leaves the system, the mines deactivate & vanish.


KlintortheDestroyer
Posted - 2011.03.12 14:58:00 - [15]
 

make mines real powerful and place them next to the gates so they destroy the people warping into the system so people that live in the system do not ever see anyone in battle since they will hide in their solar system and mine all the minerals...have a nice day :)

Ryoko Zelin
Posted - 2011.03.14 06:40:00 - [16]
 

Probably should make a seperate thread.

But Mines could be deployable as fields only.
As in, you jetison an anchorable something.

and after an online timer of about 10min small 30 medium, 1 hour for a large field
they can stay online 1 hour small, 3 hours medium. and large until DT.

the anchored object will be 1 single object and will have an activated radius based on its size, and anything with in that area will be attacked by the object for same damage as a traditional mine would do.

I think this format would work well for reducing the lag of a mine field.

The extended timers are to encourage tactical deployment of mine fields and lessen the use of them for cheap kills.

setting up tactical mine fields in the areas around a pos or station coming out of reeinforcement would add some tacical fun for either the defender or even the attackers.

setting up mine fields where you think reinforcements might warp in
or between where you think you and the enemy would be would help bring back sniper tactics in that strategically placed fields before battle would help prevent fast tackle from getting a warpin buy forcing them to fly through a pre-placed mine field.

___________________________________________________________
Other notes which may or may not aid/hinder this stuff:

Make a mine laying module that can launch a mine field object to allow it to
be anchored.

Make fields in the process of onlining only be scannable by combat probes
and not show up on grid unless scouted by a probe

This would allow for sneaky people to place mine fields near places they are likely to attack soon

being able to launch the fields while cloaked would make this easier, but I cam understand the hesitation of enabling that.



 

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