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Redigar Darkcloak
Posted - 2011.03.07 15:09:00 - [31]
 

You forgot to mention the consequences to bot subsidized super capitals, that alone is good enough reason.

J Shaft
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.07 15:12:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Whatever the consequences are, if they're doing something illegal, ban them. One shouldn't overlook illegal things just because it helps stabilize a broken economic system...


i c what u did there ;)

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2011.03.07 15:15:00 - [33]
 

I'd like to see 250 million isk plex.

LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:04:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: LittleTerror on 07/03/2011 16:04:03
Originally by: XXSketchxx
I'd like to see 250 million isk plex.


Same, the prices for plex atm are stupid, legit players have to slave away even more while the bot users just switch on their program and goto sleep at night.

It makes me sick Evil or Very Mad

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:14:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: LittleTerror
Same, the prices for plex atm are stupid, legit players have to slave away even more while the bot users just switch on their program and goto sleep at night.

It makes me sick Evil or Very Mad


Solution 1: bot

Solution 2: be a jerk and exploit all game fails (isk flows has you can't imagine)

Solution 3: Run your skils que and your PI, disconect and do something else interesting or dynamic until you need to get bored again Laughing

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:16:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Malak Alraheem
The real winners of this pipe dream are the 20% of the bots that they miss and the suddenly rich author of the program that got by the sweep.


They don't win, they just don't lose yet.
It would be in no way worse than the current situation.

Sometimes I get the impression people think the ones creating bots have some magic solutions or tools the others don't.
That's simply not the case.

It is obvious that every system (of sufficient complexity) has a loophole somewhere and it is only a matter of time and effort to find and exploit it. But the same principle holds true for the exploit itself.
It will have something to detect it and shut it down.

A bot will always be distinguishable from a real human player.
If you think being online 16 hours per day every day, repeating the same sequence of commands flawlessly hour after hour, never chatting a single word, etc. is something that could be done by a human as well, that's not the end.

A direct interview with a human will bust the bot.
I think the idea that a system, no matter how complicated and clever, will detect bots automatically and with great accuracy is something everyone should get out of their head.
Forgot captchas and the other terrible ideas that only make it harder for the player to actually play the game.
You need a system that suggests potential bots, based on metrics gathered on the server and client, and then people checking if that is true by directly talking to that player.

Don't let a machine do a man's job.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:36:00 - [37]
 

What will actually happen when CCP bans all the bots:

- Server performance will improve by around 30%.
- This will last for one week, possibly two.
- The bots return.

It's a bit like the war on drugs.

Joe Skellington
Minmatar
Matari Legion Holding
Matari Legion
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:37:00 - [38]
 

If all or most of the bots were banned, I wonder how popular Hulkageddon would be then? I think part of the rage that came from that event was the Macro Miners, and low prices of minerals.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:56:00 - [39]
 

Some information from that other botting thread:

Originally by: CCP Sreegs


Dealing with this problem correctly can't happen overnight (or even in a few weeks/months). Sure we could oversimplify the issue and come up with a magical list of accounts that we think could be bots, or have a squad of GMs staring at people all day based on a few reports, but at the end of the day would that really solve the issue? I think we need to be careful to make a distinction between effecting real change in the environment and creating a pile of sacrificial lambs. I have no interested in banning a pile of accounts to make a thread go away. (On that note GMs do spend quite a bit of time on bot-related work, whether you've personally observed the results or disagreed with the penalties)

I said you'll have some solid information by Fanfest as that's when I have time scheduled to start talking about some of the work we're doing to end the cycle of botting(among other things). For an example of what I mean about the entire cycle you can look to the pretty diagrams in my dev blog Here on phishing. There's no magic algorithm for "bot". There's no single line of code I can add to "remove bot". It makes no sense to have 30 GMs staring at a screen to "detect bot". What does make sense is analyzing the entire problem with a team of individuals and building a very carefully conceived and executed framework that attacks the problem from multiple angles at once, which is our approach.


Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 19:12:00
Originally by: Vincent Athena
CCP Sreegs, thanks for the posts.
There are a couple of question you may be able to answer now, before fanfest.

First, these are about those who use bots for in-game advantage, not for RMT.

Why, as a company, does CCP want to eliminate the accounts of those who use bots when doing so reduces CCP's income?

I ask because in many of the posts here it is stated that CCP likes the bots because they pay for a subscription (indirectly, via PLEX), and hence their elimination would hurt CCP's bottom line. (My answer: too many bots, game dies, CCP's bottom line takes BIG hit).

Has CCP ever perma-banned an account for botting? Again, not RMT, just botting. If so, did you delete their account and assets?
Has CCP ever removed the isk gained from botting from the game? Again, not RMT, just botting.
Has CCP ever perma-banned a PLAYER for botting? That is delete all their accounts, and not accept any future accounts from that player? (My guess is this is not technically possible, but I thought I'd ask.)

Thank you.


The first question is one I haven't FULLY researched but the general consensus is that removing bots actually increases CCP's income because we have more happy customers. The idea that we would want people to bot for $15 is a false one, though I could see why some people would leap to that conclusion.

We don't delete accounts. We have perma-banned a volume of accounts for botting, specifics I don't want to get into at the moment, in the past couple of months. Like in one shot, not the normal over time bans. There are normal bans that occur practically every day. Many of them permanent.

Questions regarding asset disposal would require more research and I'll ask around, but it has certainly been a consideration for the process going forward.

:edit: I'm ducking a little bit but it's after hours here in beautiful Reykjavik.

The Old Chap
Posted - 2011.03.07 17:50:00 - [40]
 

Surely one big effect will be to slam the brakes on mass production of titans? That's got to be good news for 95% of the player base.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.07 18:07:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/03/2011 18:09:49
Originally by: Kogh Ayon
If it is around half, banning macros will cause terrible awsome consequences people would not want to see will love.
…and any issues are easily compensated by CCP fiddling with spawning mechanics.
Quote:
If it is just little, there will still be a halt on PLEX's price which possibily not either CCP and or people who sells PLEX want to see.
There will only be a price crash (which the sellers won't like) if the same amount of PLEXes are bought, in which case CCP won't care. If there is a reduction in PLEX sales (which CCP won't like), the prices will remain the same, in which case the sellers won't care.

In short: removing the bots only improves the game (except for the botters, but they can go diaf in-game IRL). In fact, if people claim their game hasn't improved after such a change, they are botters and CCP should feel free to kick them in the jaw. And ban them.

Thought-crime ftw! Twisted Evil

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.03.07 18:23:00 - [42]
 

So in conclusion we should allow people to break the rules because it "might" negatively impact the in game economy.

Oh well...


Wouldnt that be a boon to legitimate players?

I suppose the question should be then "Why should CCP do nothing?" And then we should ask ourselves if macroing is so damned helpful...why should we all not do it? Or should the next patch come out with a CCP sponsored way to do it because it so helpful to the game.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.03.07 18:37:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 07/03/2011 19:56:58
Originally by: AlleyKat
Originally by: Crumplecorn
I like the sound of every one of those consequences.

^^

^^^

If the bots went away...
The Player run economy would go back to being player run.
Prices for commodities supplied mostly by bots would go up initially.
As resource and commodity prices change, different players would get their isk in different ways.
People would choose ships, modules, implants and rigs based on bang for their buck and isk in pocket.
Another day in Eve.

Kogh Ayon
Posted - 2011.03.07 20:14:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Kogh Ayon on 07/03/2011 20:16:09
Originally by: Joe SMASH
You are missing one pretty important point in your "simulation". If CCP banned all the bots, yes mineral prices will rise, ship prices will rise, modules prices will rise, etc etc. However, as mineral prices increase, you will see more and more miners in the belts because the ISK will be more in lines with what an Eve Online profession should be. At the moment, hisec mining is not even worth thinking about, let alone actually doing. As soon as hisec ores become valuable again, you will see a lot more people mining.

I am willing to bet a good % of people who can fly a decently fit Hulk, do not. They don't because it is not worth it. Mission running in hisec is more money than mining in hisec. Exploration in lowsec is more money than mining in lowsec (and a lot safer too!). Ratting/Anoms in 0.0 are far more money than mining in 0.0. Make mining more valuable by banning bots and mining is back at a viable profession. Market will be stable and prices will begin to fall again within 6 months of the mass ban. ugh


If you hope the profit from mining could be as much as 50% from lv.4 missions, then the tri price should have a 300% up to meet that. So even the price (just) goes double, little people will go mining.

What's more, the boring, interactiveless mining feature does not suit to the most of the people, they won't play mining instead of missions.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:04:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: LittleTerror
Originally by: XXSketchxx
I'd like to see 250 million isk plex.
Same, the prices for plex atm are stupid, legit players have to slave away even more while the bot users just switch on their program and goto sleep at night.

It makes me sick Evil or Very Mad
Used to be that you could buy a 30 day GTC for only 150m isk. It, too, long for those days.

Batelle
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:05:00 - [46]
 

"If we ban the bots the sky will fall"

"Prices will rise!"

I don't give two ****s. Let the whole economy crash if that's what it takes.

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:21:00 - [47]
 

Think of all the positive changes that will happen. I haven't touched a mining laser in approximately 3 years. 3 years ago, it was more profitable to mine. Larger alliances (yes, we all know they bot, they have so many people and the stakes are so high, it's bound to happen) would have to cut back on their capital production. Hence current supercap blobs won't be as feasible and supercaps and titans will become more rare, like they're supposed to be as their numbers get whittled down. Yes, the larger ships will become more expensive, but I think it's really annoying that the norm for fleets now are command ships and HAC's. I remember when commands were a rarity because of their price. And while now I exclusively fly T2 and above, I would not mind at all going back to t1 whatsoever if the playing field amongst all players were evened. The far reaching effects of banning botters would be amazing, given enough time to stabilize the economy.

Long story short, when it happens (and it WILL happen), get ready for a flood of "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING AAAHHHHH". It will be like that for a little while. But then people will adapt and the game will be better as a whole.

Fimble
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:33:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Fimble on 07/03/2011 21:45:46
Originally by: Ban Doga

Don't let a machine do a man's job.


You could even immersify it by having an authoritative ship (like concord or whatever) show up to perform a brief interview conducted by a GM. Failure to comply answer questions results in arrest, detainment... destruction.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:35:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: FeralShadow
Long story short, when it happens (and it WILL happen), get ready for a flood of "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING AAAHHHHH". It will be like that for a little while. But then people will adapt and the game will be better as a whole.


I'd like to think that it will happen, and CCP will get the bots under control. If it doesn't Eve will simply become Bots Online, where anyone not flying a Supercap or T3 is either a bot or bait.

Koragoni SkyKnight
Amarr
Completely Bored Senseless
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:38:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Koragoni SkyKnight on 07/03/2011 21:39:22
Edited by: Koragoni SkyKnight on 07/03/2011 21:39:08
Supercap blobs aren't going away. If you want to fix the Super Carrier blob, increase the reqs on the Super Carriers to be Carrier V. Honestly, I don't understand it being set at Carrier III. Pretty much any Carrier pilot can be a Super Carrier pilot as soon as they pick up Fighters V and get Fighter Bombers. It's TOO easy to do.

Beyond that, I disagree with the fundamental premise that mining in high sec isn't profitable. My hulk easily makes the same isk my BS pilot gets running level IV missions. The mining in and of itself is terribly repetitive, as is mission running, as is ratting, as is plexing.

It's all Grind and Spiders

For some that grind is fun, for others that grind is boring but essential as a means to get the isk they want to try and blow people up.

Also, several of the economic impacts listed in this thread are simply incorrect. Do you want to see what happens when the bots get banned? Take a look at material prices the day after a major patch. Specifically recently, the iso price spike. Most of the recent updates to EVE have made changes to the GUI, those changes broke many of the bots. I've seen many systems go from 20+ regulars per day to 1-2 per day as the bots aren't logged in. If the resources provided by bots aren't there, the cost of EVERYTHING doubles. A plex will actually be worth considerably more, buying power across the board is reduced as a tier 1 BS hull climbs over 100mil.

It would cause a fundamental and very deep shift in EVE's economy. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, I'm simply pointing out it would have far more drastic impacts than anyone can really predict.

Before you go and spout off about bots, do some digging into the bots themselves. Heck, go out on a limb and download the bot software and see if you can actually make it do anything useful. More importantly learn how they think... and how they work. Use that knowledge to hunt them and destroy them. The POS ratting bots in 0.0 are stupidly easy to kill with a bubble, some patience, and some creativity.

Also, not all bot operators run their bots 23/7. And can you blame the 0.0 guys for wanting to use bots to fuel their alliances? Who wants to take a 100man hulk fleet out and strip mine an entire constellation so one industrial guy can push the button and wait a month for a titan? It's hard enough to organize 100 people when they are united by the mutual enjoyment of burning something into space dust... Why do you think that major fights are the way they are? 0.0 combat pilots are so hard up for a decent fight they will do ANYTHING to get in one, even if it means coming from the other end of the universe to do it. And they will do anything to keep themselves ready for the opportunity to do such things. As long as that drive remains, bots will be.

RMT is a separate issue from the fundamental game design flaws present in all MMOs that silently encourage normal gamers to bot.

Fimble
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:44:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Kogh Ayon


If you hope the profit from mining could be as much as 50% from lv.4 missions, then the tri price should have a 300% up to meet that. So even the price (just) goes double, little people will go mining.

What's more, the boring, interactiveless mining feature does not suit to the most of the people, they won't play mining instead of missions.


People will mine if the profits are there. The profits will be there if there's enough demand. It's as simple as that, it's always as simple as that in a free market.

By all accounts, botting has damaged the economy. Removing the bots will hurt at first but the free markets always work themselves out. In other words, we have to take our medicine and feel some initial pain. Before you know it we're all healed again and as an added bonus, not thinking every ship shooting mining lasers is a damn bot.

Jack Freely
Merchants Exports
Rising Phoenix Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:44:00 - [52]
 

When some of us started to play, we couldn't buy ships on the market due to the high cost so they were produced in-house in corps or alliances and not sold on the open market. That might seem unfair or not cool but it would be nice to see some elitism return to eve.

Carriers and dreads are nothing to lose anymore, and moms are replaced within hours of being lost. I would like to see a supply disruption to the ship and mod industry.

But I have been kicking around for more years and more chars than I can remember so maybe I am out of touch with what it is like to not have any ship that I want, but currently I can buy almost any ship I would care to fly (excluding the rare one of a kind ones).

Jack Freely
Merchants Exports
Rising Phoenix Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:57:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Koragoni SkyKnight
Edited by: Koragoni SkyKnight on 07/03/2011 21:39:22
Edited by: Koragoni SkyKnight on 07/03/2011 21:39:08
Supercap blobs aren't going away. If you want to fix the Super Carrier blob, increase the reqs on the Super Carriers to be Carrier V. Honestly, I don't understand it being set at Carrier III. Pretty much any Carrier pilot can be a Super Carrier pilot as soon as they pick up Fighters V and get Fighter Bombers. It's TOO easy to do.

Also, not all bot operators run their bots 23/7. And can you blame the 0.0 guys for wanting to use bots to fuel their alliances? Who wants to take a 100man hulk fleet out and strip mine an entire constellation so one industrial guy can push the button and wait a month for a titan?

RMT is a separate issue from the fundamental game design flaws present in all MMOs that silently encourage normal gamers to bot.


First combat carriers have carrier 5 trained as the dps from the extra fighter is only worth fielding a capital if it can out damage a BS!

Second, not sure what regions you are in but titan builders import their minerals in to build titans and moms using t1 mods. The only region that I know of that mines is in the drone regions, and that is because they have to refine their rat poop anyways.

Third, mining ops use to support alliances but then they switched to just collecting rental fees and moon goo so the systems that aren't sold off are used to rat in for their members. With the current upgraded systems, two havens and two sanctums per system at all times is just sick amounts of isk that can be generated with the use of moms or titans as those systems are cyno jammed and so the ships face almost no risk at all. If you do not have those ships, fear not, carriers and battleships can also generate isk fast just not as risk free as those over tanked monsters.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.03.07 22:13:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Jack Freely
When some of us started to play, we couldn't buy ships on the market due to the high cost...
Carriers and dreads are nothing to lose anymore, and moms are replaced within hours of being lost.


Years ago, someone in my old 0.0 alliance took a carrier out to go ratting and was discovered by an enemy partol. They sent dozens of pilots to kill him, and we sent dozens of pilots to save him, but eventually we lost. Loosing that one carrier was a setback to the entire alliance.
Today, carriers are lost in major battles without being counted or given much thought, and ships worth 100 times what a carrer is worth are lost by the dozen.

Tu Ko
Predator's Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.07 23:56:00 - [55]
 

Can we simply change the mining mechanic itself?

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1475565

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.03.08 00:38:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Tu Ko
Can we simply change the mining mechanic itself?



Crazy person..... How would making mining less repetitive and boring lessen the demand for bots? That's crazy talk.

:-P

People walk straight past this fact everyday....... Boring repetitive tasks, are best handled by automation. Simple as that.

Lex Dante
Posted - 2011.03.08 01:17:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Lex Dante on 08/03/2011 01:18:15
Edited by: Lex Dante on 08/03/2011 01:17:18
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Boring repetitive tasks, are best handled by automation. Simple as that.
This is my biggest problem with the EVE universe: all of this future tech and I can't set up an automated mining facility? Search tools and technology interfaces that feel far more circa 1997 than 22,997?

Once we passed through the Gate, we somehow lost the ability to do simple computational tasks such as mapping a set of location-based items (like contracts) onto a list of locations (like waypoints).

Technology is supposed to minimise human effort Smile

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.08 01:40:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
I like the sound of every one of those consequences.


Ditto!


Slade

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.03.08 01:49:00 - [59]
 

After seeing just how much people enjoy the most boring aspects of this game I've come up with a new game idea.

1800's Factory Worker

Set at the dawn of the industrial age you play a 12yo London born worker,
struggling with the day to day existence of slum life you get yourself
a great job working in a cotton mill as a runner. Constantly in danger
of losing fingers or decapitation by the machinery in this stunningly
rendered 3D spectacular world.

* Photo-realistic 3D rendering of an authentic 1800s cotton mill.
* Hours of fun running back and forth in the exact same pattern.
* Integrated breaks once every 16 hours.
* Super-realistic Task-Master peripheral complete with cane and whip.
* Much Much More!!!

It will sell like hotcakes!

PickleCrazy
Posted - 2011.03.08 02:13:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
After seeing just how much people enjoy the most boring aspects of this game I've come up with a new game idea.

1800's Factory Worker

Set at the dawn of the industrial age you play a 12yo London born worker,
struggling with the day to day existence of slum life you get yourself
a great job working in a cotton mill as a runner. Constantly in danger
of losing fingers or decapitation by the machinery in this stunningly
rendered 3D spectacular world.

* Photo-realistic 3D rendering of an authentic 1800s cotton mill.
* Hours of fun running back and forth in the exact same pattern.
* Integrated breaks once every 16 hours.
* Super-realistic Task-Master peripheral complete with cane and whip.
* Much Much More!!!

It will sell like hotcakes!



Where can I apply for the closed beta? I really want to get in on this game on the ground floor.


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