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Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:36:00 - [1]
 

Definition: in the context of this forum post, I am referring to player-owned ships fighting other player-owned ships as PvP.
Not market transactions.
Not Jita scam spamming, or other activities that some classify as PvP.
Just ships in space shooting other ships in space…the thing that all the CCP ads try and sell as the wonderful game that is Eve.

Eve is touted as the ultimate PvP game, watch the ads, do they show someone trading in Jita and making a cool billion on margins…?
No, it’s all big flashy ships in space going Pew Pew…Boom….

And if you spend more than a minute reading forums, or talking to players, the consensus is that Eve is a PvP game, and without PvP the game fails.
Now I’m not even gonna argue if that’s eve true or not, I’ll accept it as fact.
But if that isn’t what takes your fancy…so what?

Now…in theory…I want to PvP.
I’ve lived in low and null sec (still do) and have been involved in a few attempts at PvP, but so far I haven’t had anything that I would remotely classify as a fun time doing so.
Wait an hour for the fleet to form.
Roam around a few systems looking for isolated ships to gank…
Camp a gate for a few minutes.
Get bored / time to go to bed, but then realise you're stuck 10 jumps from home, so you either risk a solo flight back, continue for another 2 hours, of log off in said remote space...

get a big fleet together, go kill a POS..shoot several hundred rounds of faction ammo...get zip for your time and efforts...

Form a fleet, one player baits a small gang with a tanked cyno ship, drops a cyno, everyone uses the titan to jump straight into the fleet...except me, who never knew how to use a titan for a jump...and no-one told me...

Join a corp, move to null sec, corp gets kicked out of alliance a week later, oh JOY, you're at war now! Undock from station into the arms of a waiting blob...why, can't I look out the windows of the farking station???

Form a smal fleet, go roaming...
Ooh, look a loan Myrmidon, let’s get him…
Damn, he jumped, let’s chase him…damn gate aggression timer….OK, I’m through…there he is, lock, fire…
Oh, he’s called his mates in, blob arrives…squish time.
Podded again, darn aggression timer applies to your pod too…for some reason.

So, I get back to home base a few hours later, in a fresh clone, and mission again, I scan down a nice plex, and solo it.
Great fun…oooh iskies, look.
Man, the tank on this last named dude is awesome, let’s call in a corp-mate to take him down.
Ooh escalation, hmm, time to get a small fleet together, 2 or 3 should do for this plex…

Now if I have a great time running plex’s, and a crap time PvP’ing, why should anyone feel they have the right to tell me how to play the game I choose to play with my money, in my time?
I’ll even grant that I suck at PvP, although to be fair, I can’t say I’ve been tested, in that I met someone in a similar fit, with a similar SP count, and fought him in a fight in which skill of the player actually mattered.
I think that’s the fundamental problem with PvP, the skill of the player, in both fitting a decent ship, and using that ship in combat, is almost totally irrelevant for most combat.
Sure, there’s a few fleets that fly a beautiful ballet of supporting rep, ECM, target painting etc…that can defeat larger blobs…
But really, mostly, PvP is a waste of time, I’d rather earn isk to fly pretty ships, than lose isk to overwhelming odds over and over again.

OK, I’m going to rate replies.
1 point for any mention of tears, 2 if those tears are imbided
5 points for any comments that include “L2P”
10 points for the word “carebear,” double points if mentioned in context with aforementioned tears.
25 points for typing: TL;DR, and then somehow forming a reply to a post you just admit you didn’t even read…ahh, classic…

Minus 50 points for actually forming a coherent, legible reply written with some understanding of the English language and grammar. I mean, come on, what forum are you posting on here??


Estel Arador
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:39:00 - [2]
 

TL;DR: L2P carebear!

(going for maximum points with a minimum of words)

Katsumoto
Caldari
Quam Singulari
Session Changes
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:40:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Katsumoto on 06/03/2011 23:40:21
TL;DR: rate this post

Leeluvv
The Black Ops
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:45:00 - [4]
 

Eve is a strategy game that allows players to increase a number. For some the number is ISK in their wallet, for others it is kills on their killboard. The former will trade time for ISK, the latter will trade ISK for time.

What is amusing is when each player type insults the other, without realizing that they are actually symbiotes and that neither can exist without the other.

Dante Marcellus
Minmatar
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:47:00 - [5]
 

Eh, I sort of agree with you. The only time I ever really have fun in PVP, is when I'm canflipping. All too often the odds are not on my side (or any of the people I happen to be flying with, for that matter). But that's cool. The beauty of the game is that you can do whatever you want.

I believe that EVE is a PVP game, in all sense of the acronym, but there are other things to it. I mean, you're in space. That's cool enough!

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:48:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Leeluvv
Eve is a strategy game that allows players to increase a number. For some the number is ISK in their wallet, for others it is kills on their killboard. The former will trade time for ISK, the latter will trade ISK for time.

What is amusing is when each player type insults the other, without realizing that they are actually symbiotes and that neither can exist without the other.


Congrats...MINUS 100 points, as you met the criteria for -50 AND had the audacity to actually make sense too!

Oddymandius
Minmatar
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:07:00 - [7]
 

Okay, I'm going to address one big aspect of your post:
Originally by: Yxalitis

get a big fleet together, go kill a POS..shoot several hundred rounds of faction ammo...get zip for your time and efforts...
Quote:
Form a fleet, one player baits a small gang with a tanked cyno ship, drops a cyno, everyone uses the titan to jump straight into the fleet...except me, who never knew how to use a titan for a jump...and no-one told me...
Quote:
Join a corp, move to null sec, corp gets kicked out of alliance a week later, oh JOY, you're at war now! Undock from station into the arms of a waiting blob...why, can't I look out the windows of the farking station???
Quote:
Form a smal fleet, go roaming... Ooh, look a loan Myrmidon, let’s get him…Damn, he jumped, let’s chase him…damn gate aggression timer….OK, I’m through…there he is, lock, fire… Oh, he’s called his mates in, blob arrives…squish time. Podded again, darn aggression timer applies to your pod too…for some reason.
The above are all situations where PvP skill determined who won.
Quote:
I’ll even grant that I suck at PvP, although to be fair, I can’t say I’ve been tested, in that I met someone in a similar fit, with a similar SP count, and fought him in a fight in which skill of the player actually mattered.
This is not a situation where PvP skill would determine who won.

You are confused about what PvP skill is. It has nothing to do with even fights. It only has a limited amount to do with what actually happens in space when ships fire at each other.

Here, I'll use your own example:
Quote:
Sure, there’s a few fleets that fly a beautiful ballet of supporting rep, ECM, target painting etc…that can defeat larger blobs…
They don't defeat larger blobs ONLY because of what they do on the battlefield - they had to organise that strategy, and then make sure they wound up in a position where it would help them.

You like missions and plexes BECAUSE they are (reasonably) predictable and 'balanced', everything PvP is not. If you want to make a real effort to learn PvP you have to drop the mindset that life is supposed to be fair, and start trying to figure out ways to make it unfair for other people.

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:18:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Yxalitis on 07/03/2011 00:19:28
Originally by: Oddymandius
Okay, I'm going to address one big aspect of your post:
Originally by: Yxalitis

get a big fleet together, go kill a POS..shoot several hundred rounds of faction ammo...get zip for your time and efforts...
Quote:
Form a fleet, one player baits a small gang with a tanked cyno ship, drops a cyno, everyone uses the titan to jump straight into the fleet...except me, who never knew how to use a titan for a jump...and no-one told me...
Quote:
Join a corp, move to null sec, corp gets kicked out of alliance a week later, oh JOY, you're at war now! Undock from station into the arms of a waiting blob...why, can't I look out the windows of the farking station???
Quote:
Form a smal fleet, go roaming... Ooh, look a loan Myrmidon, let’s get him…Damn, he jumped, let’s chase him…damn gate aggression timer….OK, I’m through…there he is, lock, fire… Oh, he’s called his mates in, blob arrives…squish time. Podded again, darn aggression timer applies to your pod too…for some reason.
The above are all situations where PvP skill determined who won.
Quote:
I’ll even grant that I suck at PvP, although to be fair, I can’t say I’ve been tested, in that I met someone in a similar fit, with a similar SP count, and fought him in a fight in which skill of the player actually mattered.
This is not a situation where PvP skill would determine who won.

You are confused about what PvP skill is. It has nothing to do with even fights. It only has a limited amount to do with what actually happens in space when ships fire at each other.

Here, I'll use your own example:
Quote:
Sure, there’s a few fleets that fly a beautiful ballet of supporting rep, ECM, target painting etc…that can defeat larger blobs…
They don't defeat larger blobs ONLY because of what they do on the battlefield - they had to organise that strategy, and then make sure they wound up in a position where it would help them.

You like missions and plexes BECAUSE they are (reasonably) predictable and 'balanced', everything PvP is not. If you want to make a real effort to learn PvP you have to drop the mindset that life is supposed to be fair, and start trying to figure out ways to make it unfair for other people.

You seem to think I'm looking for a fair fight, in fact, I'm looking for a FUN fight.
Out blobbing your opponent ins't fun, it's BORING.
Taking down a POS isn't fun, it's BORING.
Having an entire alliance kill you every time you undock because the tw@t that runs your corp doesn't know real-life diplomacy, and refuses to concede when he is clearly outclassed. ("We'll fight for our territory" riiight...)isn't FUN
My point is, that learning to fight PvP the eve way...does not interest me, and I shouldn't be made to feel that I am somehow not playing the game "properly" as a result.

Sorvus Mordar
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:25:00 - [9]
 

Can I have all your stuff?

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:34:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Sorvus Mordar
Can I have all your stuff?


DAMN, I FORGOT that one....cudos for spotting the hole in my response reward system...!
You can have 50 points!!

Sorvus Mordar
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:36:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Yxalitis
Originally by: Sorvus Mordar
Can I have all your stuff?


DAMN, I FORGOT that one....cudos for spotting the hole in my response reward system...!
You can have 50 points!!


To be honest, I feel like that is an inadequate amount of points, being that I found the "bonus."

I demand a higher number of points.

Further, can you please contract me your stuff?

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:38:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Sorvus Mordar
Originally by: Yxalitis
Originally by: Sorvus Mordar
Can I have all your stuff?


DAMN, I FORGOT that one....cudos for spotting the hole in my response reward system...!
You can have 50 points!!


To be honest, I feel like that is an inadequate amount of points, being that I found the "bonus."

I demand a higher number of points.

Further, can you please contract me your stuff?

Check your contract list tonight, there'll be a tangible bonus for you...

Sorvus Mordar
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:39:00 - [13]
 

Thanks, Brah.

Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:42:00 - [14]
 

Go back to WOW. Yayyyy a million points for meeee!

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:45:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Christopher AET
Go back to WOW. Yayyyy a million points for meeee!


ugh, sorry, WOW is just such a bad game...makes me shudder to think people think I might have actually ever played it...ever...uggh

Hoya en Marland
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:51:00 - [16]
 

I agree with OP: PvP in EVE can be fun... sometimes. But it's mostly boring and stupidly time consuming.

Fortunately, EVE has plenty of other things to do. Interesting, too!

PickleCrazy
Posted - 2011.03.07 00:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Yxalitis
Originally by: Christopher AET
Go back to WOW. Yayyyy a million points for meeee!


ugh, sorry, WOW is just such a bad game...makes me shudder to think people think I might have actually ever played it...ever...uggh


Not to defend WoW, but how do you know it is "such a bad game" if you have never played it?

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.07 01:19:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: PickleCrazy
Originally by: Yxalitis
Originally by: Christopher AET
Go back to WOW. Yayyyy a million points for meeee!


ugh, sorry, WOW is just such a bad game...makes me shudder to think people think I might have actually ever played it...ever...uggh


Not to defend WoW, but how do you know it is "such a bad game" if you have never played it?

Friends play it, sat with them while they tried to sell it to me...played a trial account that came with my ATI Drivers(for some strange reason) for about 5 minutes, tried to kill a rabbit..failed..left...

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2011.03.07 02:01:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Yxalitis
Originally by: Christopher AET
Go back to WOW. Yayyyy a million points for meeee!


ugh, sorry, WOW is just such a bad game...makes me shudder to think people think I might have actually ever played it...ever...uggh


I doubt you can call wow a bad game when its as popular as it is. Its very differnt to eve granted and it maybe not for you but it is a good game.

I don't like all the x-factor tv show type stuff so much I don't watch tv except for an odd program online but them programmes can;t be bad as they attract the highest tv audiences they just not enjoyable for me.

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.07 02:20:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: sableye
Originally by: Yxalitis
Originally by: Christopher AET
Go back to WOW. Yayyyy a million points for meeee!


ugh, sorry, WOW is just such a bad game...makes me shudder to think people think I might have actually ever played it...ever...uggh


I doubt you can call wow a bad game when its as popular as it is. Its very differnt to eve granted and it maybe not for you but it is a good game.

I don't like all the x-factor tv show type stuff so much I don't watch tv except for an odd program online but them programmes can;t be bad as they attract the highest tv audiences they just not enjoyable for me.


Originally by: Yxalitis

ugh, sorry, WOW is just such a bad game IN MY OPINION...makes me shudder to think people think I might have actually ever played it...ever...uggh


How's that? Very Happy

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.03.07 02:26:00 - [21]
 

TL;DR: Reported for trolling. Enjoy your lock.

Yxalitis
Posted - 2011.03.07 03:24:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
TL;DR: Reported for trolling. Enjoy your lock.


No good sir, it is YOU who are trolling..

enjoy YOUR lock...hazaa!

motomysz
Nexus Advanced Technologies
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.03.07 06:04:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: motomysz on 07/03/2011 06:08:08
This is one case where the meme expresses exactly what I want to say, succinctly and in perfect clarity. Urdoinitrong. As in, you're doing it wrong. I was in a fleet just today, wherein, although we spent an hour forming up, we left our station on a roam and within an hour our 30-man gang had engaged and routed a 40-man gang. Everyone (except one snowflake) had the same kind of tank (armor), we had a solid logistics group (myself included), and our FC called targets as well as can be expected against names like scloshnam fhyarnemswaf. We then scooped loot and flew home. This is how pvp ought to be done, and although it doesn't happen this way every time, when it does it is the most fun I have in Eve, and it is what keeps me coming back. The risk is higher, the reward higher, and it matters more in the grand scheme of things, all of which combine to make it more intense, and to make it more enjoyable when it goes right.

If your pvp experiences have been so terrible, I suggest you find a better group to pvp with. I would contend that there are more fleets than you think in which the role you take on matters, and how diligently and competently you perform said role is key. It's not all about groups of fifty taking on careless solo pilots who stand no chance. Whether or not you pursue pvp as a main objective in Eve, I suggest you take a chance to look for an environment in which you can have enjoyable pvp experiences, at least a handful. You may get hooked.

Ant Talon
Posted - 2011.03.07 06:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: motomysz
Edited by: motomysz on 07/03/2011 06:08:08
This is one case where the meme expresses exactly what I want to say, succinctly and in perfect clarity. Urdoinitrong. As in, you're doing it wrong. I was in a fleet just today, wherein, although we spent an hour forming up, we left our station on a roam and within an hour our 30-man gang had engaged and routed a 40-man gang. Everyone (except one snowflake) had the same kind of tank (armor), we had a solid logistics group (myself included), and our FC called targets as well as can be expected against names like scloshnam fhyarnemswaf. We then scooped loot and flew home. This is how pvp ought to be done, and although it doesn't happen this way every time, when it does it is the most fun I have in Eve, and it is what keeps me coming back. The risk is higher, the reward higher, and it matters more in the grand scheme of things, all of which combine to make it more intense, and to make it more enjoyable when it goes right.

If your pvp experiences have been so terrible, I suggest you find a better group to pvp with. I would contend that there are more fleets than you think in which the role you take on matters, and how diligently and competently you perform said role is key. It's not all about groups of fifty taking on careless solo pilots who stand no chance. Whether or not you pursue pvp as a main objective in Eve, I suggest you take a chance to look for an environment in which you can have enjoyable pvp experiences, at least a handful. You may get hooked.


No, hes doin' it rite.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.03.07 06:59:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Dante Marcellus
The beauty of the game is that you can do whatever you want.

If only that were true eh.

EvE is not a sandbox game, its linear, beginning, middle, end game.

Its much like WoW in that respect.

Yes you can choose to stay at the beginning (can flipping, frigate base solo pvp etc), mid-game (corporations, low sec piracy, carebearing, high sec wars, missioning, WH) or go to the end-game (0.0, sov).

But at the end of the day, the Devs have set EvE up as a linear game, with 0.0 fleet combat touted as the be all, end all and the majority of new items, ships, structures, buffs and perks in 0.0.

A sandbox game on the other hand is a sandbox game, ultimate success can be found in all aspects of the game play dependent on your skill and motivation and one mode of play is not favored and fawned over by the developers as an end game.

So no you cannot do whatever you like in EvE, any more so then you can in World of Warcraft. Artificial limits prevent that.

Fouljin
Posted - 2011.03.07 08:18:00 - [26]
 

In nullsec, players create the content. if your corp / alliance is not organized well enough, it could bring some problems, like another alliance knocking at your door.
I love living in null again. If I loose a ship, Ill just get another. Loose a pod, no biggie, sometimes the really fast way to travel is to self-destruct your pod. Waiting a fleet? No waiting ever. Insta fleets thanks to well organized alliance.
Gatecamps. Boring and fun at the sametime. Paradoxial.
Goals! Some people has their goals on fat wallet full of shiny iskies Some people like to see 100+ kills on their killboard everyday.
Some people collect faction ships to their hangar just like Jay Leno collects cars.
Eve is not black and white. You can actually do what you want if you put your mind into it. In null (and lowsec) teamwork is the key, without is theres no win, only fail.
I personaly use my isk to fund my pvp. When I run out of isk, I run some sanctums/heavens untill i can buy and fit dozen drakes and hurricanes and what ever I like to fly. Then it's pvp time untill I run out of ships and isk. Then it's time to grind more money. Simple and works for me.

Raeza
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2011.03.07 08:21:00 - [27]
 

+1 You have expressed that u no love pvp with less tears than most do o7

Hoya en Marland
Posted - 2011.03.07 08:48:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Yxalitis
played a trial account that came with my ATI Drivers(for some strange reason) for about 5 minutes, tried to kill a rabbit..failed..left...

So you are able to judge every game out there in 5 minutes. I am curious, what exactly did you do in EVE in those 5 minutes to decide that it's a great game?

Originally by: motomysz
I was in a fleet just today, wherein, although we spent an hour forming up, we left our station on a roam and within an hour our 30-man gang had engaged and routed a 40-man gang. Everyone (except one snowflake) had the same kind of tank (armor), we had a solid logistics group (myself included), and our FC called targets as well as can be expected against names like scloshnam fhyarnemswaf. We then scooped loot and flew home.

Exactly. Spend an hour grouping up, probably another hour to find hostiles, lock the targets someone else told you to, press F keys, and watch blinky text on the overview. Sounds like great fun indeed.

Originally by: Infinity Ziona

EvE is not a sandbox game, its linear, beginning, middle, end game.

Its much like WoW in that respect.

Come on now, you are overdoing it. EVE is still the best sandbox out there - only the PvP mechanics is definitely not one of its most exciting points.

Oddymandius
Minmatar
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.03.07 08:52:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Yxalitis
I shouldn't be made to feel that I am somehow not playing the game "properly" as a result.
Why not?

Pasmerktas
Posted - 2011.03.07 09:17:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Pasmerktas on 07/03/2011 09:18:45
Edited by: Pasmerktas on 07/03/2011 09:18:34
well i can say you this, you started to live in eve not play it, as you are i assume coward in RL, when you started to live in eve you avoid challenge and risk. collect your balls back and start from lowsec, be not afraid of fights, and from losing your ship, oh and you will lose as long as you don't catch and implemets strategy, later strategies. Maybe you will help yourself to bring balls back to RL also, as from what i can see you are one of those types who never fight and never fight back. Also with your balls back you maybe will feel the fun in challenge and risk,that is the first thing i enjoy eve and always am on status of poor pirate. Feel the adrenaline rush as you PvP in an unfair fight, and you will will joy after losing your ship but taking 3 guys with you. Maybe even more joy after winning an unfair fight, who knows. Start playing the game, you don't live in here no matter how pathetic you are in RL.

P.S. 10 jumps is easy :D damn 10 jumps doesn't even count as risky journey


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