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Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.04.20 05:32:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
For the record, I suspect that CCP is thinking about tiering issues, as I made a general comment about imbalance within the frigate range in one of the round tables at Fanfest and Chronotis asked (unprompted) whether I was talking about tiers.

Ah, that was you. I remember the conversation, something like "Why is it that ever frig except for the Rifter sucks? They're ****ing HORRIBLE, DO SOMETHING!!!" Laughing

Supporting the proposal of removing or at least toning down the tier concept.

Khaeros
Posted - 2011.04.20 05:57:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Sahmul
...ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"


+1


Sephiroth CloneVII
Posted - 2011.04.21 02:44:00 - [63]
 

supported, it wouldn't take a insane amount of resources, we are not asking for uber new graphics or anything, just balancing them in base number of slots, changing base stats.

Have the ships differing in the ability's that increase per level, and type of slots they have (highs of missiles or guns, one more mid or one more low).

Allot of people here could think up some pretty simple numbers close to what it should be, just takes implementation.

Swynet
State War Academy

Posted - 2011.04.21 15:35:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 21/04/2011 15:35:19
Originally by: Val'Dore
It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.


Let me give you another example, I'll not even try with BC's or C's Gallente class, it's an old horse:

Hyperion - The Megathron fills the same role much better making the Hyperion pointless and an expensive hangar queen.

Dominix- versatility, is there any other BS in the game except the Rattlesnake that can fill the same number of roles?

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.22 17:58:00 - [65]
 

Well, the Hyperion would be a much more viable boat if it hadn't been intended to replace the Megathron instead of just giving the Gallente a decent sniper BS. But in tiericide, one of those two would need a change, hell even before tiericide.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.04 23:18:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Well, the Hyperion would be a much more viable boat if it hadn't been intended to replace the Megathron instead of just giving the Gallente a decent sniper BS. But in tiericide, one of those two would need a change, hell even before tiericide.


I agree and support this. Very Happy

Teranul
Posted - 2011.05.05 00:08:00 - [67]
 

Just making sure I've shown my support for this.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.05.05 01:23:00 - [68]
 

Supported as always.

Renarla
Posted - 2011.05.05 03:21:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Renarla on 05/05/2011 03:21:05
+1

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service

Posted - 2011.05.05 05:44:00 - [70]
 

In case I didn't support this already.

Oeduard Kriegge
Posted - 2011.05.05 08:10:00 - [71]
 

Yup

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.05 11:14:00 - [72]
 

Sure. Also, ponies would be sweet.

I do support this, but I think there's a rather idealized idea of how easy balancing it all would actually be. By that I mean, removing the tier system would be hard. If you try doing balance on that many ships at once, you're bound to screw something up.

What we really need is a team of designers called "Team Judgement" or something, a team dedicated specifically to ship and module balance. Lots of mathematicians and hardcore designers, you know what I'm saying? I mean a team specifically dedicated to balance, looking for trends and such.

I support this topic because it's a good idea. But I'm not sure it'd be even remotely easy.

Also, one last thing that bugged me: Tiers provide progression within ship classes. Removing the tier system would kill that progression. It's not a huge pro of the tier system, but it is a pro.

Anyway, supported.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.05.06 04:11:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Sure. Also, ponies would be sweet.


My Alliance for a Pony.

Quote:
I do support this, but I think there's a rather idealized idea of how easy balancing it all would actually be. By that I mean, removing the tier system would be hard. If you try doing balance on that many ships at once, you're bound to screw something up.


Not at all. Develop a standardized ruleset for stats and then make each deviation a subset of rules.

For example. The Battlecruiser class has 9900 hp total. The standard would be 3300/3300/3300 hull/armor/shield. Racial flavor would put Minmatar at -20% Hull and +10% Armor/Shield. Caldari -10% Hull/Armor and +20% Shield. Amarr at -10% Hull/Shield and +20% Armor. Gallente -20% Shield and +10% Hull/Armor. The Cyclone is a Shield oriented ship so would get a further +10% to shield and -10% to armor. The Hurricane would fit the standard Minmatar Deviation.

Each race will have at least one ship at the Racial Deviation of the Standard. Then you simply tweak individual ships around that. Race neutral ships would be the 'purest'.

Quote:
What we really need is a team of designers called "Team Judgement" or something, a team dedicated specifically to ship and module balance. Lots of mathematicians and hardcore designers, you know what I'm saying? I mean a team specifically dedicated to balance, looking for trends and such.


CCP could pay me $1000 to do it for them. I have half a mind to do it for free anyway.

Quote:
I support this topic because it's a good idea. But I'm not sure it'd be even remotely easy.


It's only hard if you try to do it without a solid foundation.

Quote:
Also, one last thing that bugged me: Tiers provide progression within ship classes. Removing the tier system would kill that progression. It's not a huge pro of the tier system, but it is a pro.


Actually, they force progression. But since progression in EvE is entirely based on sp, knowledge, associations, and ISK... there is no need for a mundane planned obsolescence of entire lines of ships.

Quote:
Anyway, supported.


Very Happy

Tekedo
Danger Girl.

Posted - 2011.05.06 04:23:00 - [74]
 

+1

Maz3r Rakum
Gallente
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.05.06 04:42:00 - [75]
 


Gynoceros
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.06 06:33:00 - [76]
 

Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.06 07:15:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
What we really need is a team of designers called "Team Judgement" or something, a team dedicated specifically to ship and module balance. Lots of mathematicians and hardcore designers, you know what I'm saying? I mean a team specifically dedicated to balance, looking for trends and such.


This is something the CSM are intending to push for in the very near future.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.05.06 17:01:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Gynoceros
Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.


Battleships suffer from Tiering too.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.05.21 19:54:00 - [79]
 

Pot hole!

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.22 11:05:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 22/05/2011 12:11:26
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Gynoceros
Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.


Battleships suffer from Tiering too.


Gallente: the battleship tiers is non sense. The price tag/bill of materials has nothing reasonable imho.

You have the noob BS that becomes nasty stuff in the hands of some troglodyte full lvl5 skills (yes a few century's of game for those)

The two gun bs's lack of pg/cpu/cap recharge/slots with price tags difference of 100%, skill intensive for both but only one is worthy and gives you for your isk in most situations -until you fly with Minie counterpart and decide to cross train ASAP, but it's another thread story.

Honestly, what's the purpose of Tiers system if the only [stuff] different is the build cost? -shouldn't the tiers system define specific roles related to lvl skills?

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.22 21:26:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 26/05/2011 05:15:26
Save the T1 Cruiser Line Up.

Things like the T1 Logi's
EWAR Ships like the Bellicose and Celestis.
The Omen and Stabber
The Thorax, Moa, Maller.

Poor fitting, Slot Layout, Bonuses have plauged these ships. Teir 2 Battlecruisers are a similar price and can handle almost any role better. Like the T1 Logi's there role isn't even managed well do to poor fitting/cap/bonuses.

Ships like the Punisher, Maller and Prophecy have a Laser bonus so bad most people cram Capless Autocannons on. At least they gave the Abaddon a Dmg Bonus along with the Armor Resist. The Moa and Ferox that both have less range and Dmg then a good Drake.

Some serious role redefine and balance changes would be nice.

No more useless ships.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.05.26 03:23:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Gynoceros
Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.


Battleships suffer from Tiering too.


Gallente: the battleship tiers is non sense. The price tag/bill of materials has nothing reasonable imho.


Any race really, none of the Tech 1 ships have any significant differences in technology, so the comparative cost and ability imbalances make little sense.

Quote:
Honestly, what's the purpose of Tiers system if the only [stuff] different is the build cost? -shouldn't the tiers system define specific roles related to lvl skills?


In theory, yes. But in actuality, all tiers do is arbitrarily gimp stats and entire lines of ships.

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Save the T1 Cruiser Line Up.

Things like the T1 Logi's
EWAR Ships like the Bellicose and Celestis.
The Omen and Stabber
The Thorax, Moa, Maller.

Poor fitting, Slot Layout, Bonuses have plauged these ships. T2 Battlecruisers are a similar price and can handle almost any role better. Like the T1 Logi's there role isn't even managed well do to poor fitting/cap/bonuses.


It almost seems like Tech 1 ships were prenerfed for tiering reasons so that Tech 2 ships can be that much more powerful in direct comparison.

Quote:
Ships like the Punisher, Maller and Prophecy have a Laser bonus so bad most people cram Capless Autocannons on. At least they gave the Abaddon a Dmg Bonus along with the Armor Resist. The Moa and Ferox that both have less range and Dmg then a good Drake.


To be fair, lasers are the most damaging weapons with no ships bonus applied.

Quote:
Some serious role redefine and balance changes would be nice.


Precisely the goal of Tiericide.

Quote:
No more useless ships.



See above.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.26 05:30:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
.To be fair, lasers are the most damaging weapons with no ships bonus applied.

Not really, between the better fitting of Autocannons allowing for more tank, Dmg selection and being completely capless, without a combet bonus they are just better. Cap Use is a terrible bonus for these ships, it gets completely ignored for fitting capless weapons. There should be an incentive to fit them, if people want the better fitting, capless ones they can still use them but if they want a weapons bonus that will help them in combat then fit lasers. A Cap Bonus without a weapons bonus is just sad.

It wouldn't overpower the ship, HAM's have the same range as pulse and Heavies longer range then Beams so the Prophecy wouldn't be any more powerful then the Drake. The Maller would still have no Frig Defense and the Punisher would have to give up tank to fit them. I think a Dmg Bonus along with Teiracide would be a good thing to get Lasers to be used on these ships.

Quote:

See above.

That wasn't really a question to be answered, more of a statement...

Of Support.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts

Posted - 2011.05.26 08:53:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/05/2011 08:53:26
Originally by: Val'Dore
Quote:
No more useless ships.


Precisely the goal of Tiericide.


You need to be careful of the balance between ship classes, as well as between ships in a class. I'm thinking specifically of the balance between cruisers and battlecruisers here, as well as between battlecruisers and the awful close-range HACs that no-one flies (Deimos and Sacrilege).

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.26 12:40:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/05/2011 08:53:26
Originally by: Val'Dore
Quote:
No more useless ships.


Precisely the goal of Tiericide.


You need to be careful of the balance between ship classes, as well as between ships in a class. I'm thinking specifically of the balance between cruisers and battlecruisers here, as well as between battlecruisers and the awful close-range HACs that no-one flies (DieMost and Sacrilege).


Sorry, I just had to YARRRR!!

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.05.26 13:51:00 - [86]
 

Razz

I actually saw someone flying a Deimos a few days ago. But when I killed it, despite their Falcon, Eve-Kill refused to accept the mail, saying that it was malformed! Maybe I should have edited the ship type to "Diemost"...

Battleclinic, being more old-fashioned, was happy to accept the mail with this museum-piece on though.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.05.26 16:44:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
That wasn't really a question to be answered, more of a statement...

Of Support.



I know that. Wink

Dirlewanger
Posted - 2011.05.27 12:29:00 - [88]
 

Tiers should die. They do a lot of harm to t1 frigs and cruisers, but the best example are the Tier 1 BCs. They weren't much good; the Tier 2 ones became what BCs should have been from the start; and the Tier 1s became absolute crap (except the Brutix which is half-crap). By all means make them different, but do not impose an absolute disadvantage in grid, cap, armor, shield and - much worse - slots.
They should go the way of multiple-Q agents (but I miss this, ammounted a bit to a tax on stupidity), or BPCs equal to BPOs.
Its a system that has outlived any possible usefulness.

Omen and maller are like harbinger and prophecy. Everybody would use the omen like they do the rupture if it weren't castrated. The proph could still be a low dps, huge tank ship, but become useful by actually having another slot layout. This would give a choice. As is, no choice at all and the ship might not exist.

Apply to tier 1 and 2 BS as well, mind. The tier 3 are heavier, less agile, more sig versions so they ok.

EnthusiGASM
Posted - 2011.05.29 20:34:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: EnthusiGASM on 29/05/2011 20:38:34
Interesting idea. As it is, there is no tier 3 missile only battleship (Caldari being the black sheep of Eve), so if this bumped up or brought down all battleship tiers to the same level (i.e: hit points and such) I guess that would satisfy... somewhat...

Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
Posted - 2011.05.29 21:25:00 - [90]
 

you can eliminate the tier system but what is it going to do? if you stream line the costs and make them all equal there will be no variation.


Do we really need to make this game so bland like the character creator? Hey remember when bloodlines meaned something? Now every character starts out practically the same with no advantage over another in areas, no weaknesses in areas, just a cookie cutter.

Removing the tier system would do that just to ships, they would be bland boring and there would be no advantage to flying one ship over another.

now lets break down the 1-6 on the list.

1. This is to prevent those little kids who buy buy plex from buying lots of big ships before they are really able to fly them. Seriously do you want someone in a sniper abbadon with only amarr bs 1 on your fleet op?
- NO. This is there to ensure people are ready to fly the ship properly.

2. So what change nothing? The heavier ships already weigh more. Also dont fix what isnt broken with material costs.

3. No, we dont need cookie cutter ships, we already have cookie cutter characters we dont need them in ships. There is no reason the dominix should have the same cap as a thron or a hyperion.

4. they are already like that.

5. elaborate - tweaks should be done on some ships.

6. NO, tech 1 is exactly that. TECH 1. they are not supposed to have super powers like their tech 2 variants. If you start giving tech 1 ships those special role powers like the tech 2 variants then you are going to erase the line that defines the need to shoot for tech 2 ships.

Eve is already getting too easy as it is, not make it any easier and bland.


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