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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.08 13:31:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
They go hand in hand I spose. You can't have a tier system and have balance too.


Sure you can, its just a question of how much is dictated by the tiering and how much is down to individual ship attributes. Right now (to this extent I agree with your premise) there's too much seemingly dictated by tier, hence things like the low end frigates hopelessly lacking in slots and EHP.


Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.08 19:16:00 - [32]
 

Exactly, most of the evidence of the tier system are the inherent imbalances, so by nuking the tier system, we nuke the imbalances. So you are right.

We just need more thumbs up posts.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.09 19:22:00 - [33]
 

There has to be more detractors or something that can say their piece.

ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2011.03.09 23:31:00 - [34]
 

i personaly never really thought of the different ships as in different teirs when i first started playing EVE i more thought of them as a different hull with a different role , and i think thats how they should be in the first place with relitively different stats and miniral req's for the different hull types based on size of ship and what it is designed for, like more combat oriantated ships would require more megacite due to it being used more in weapon systems and so on and so forth

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.10 01:57:00 - [35]
 

Right, however currently, all of that is arbitrary and unrelated to role or mass.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.13 03:21:00 - [36]
 

Shameless Bump. Where are the freakin trolls?

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.14 12:16:00 - [37]
 

The isk difference between a Tier 1 BC and a Tier 2 BC is next to nothing, but the performance difference is enormous, making almost all of the Tier 1 BCs useless. Same goes for frigates, cruisers and BS's.

The tier system is horrible.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.20 01:35:00 - [38]
 

I wouldn't call an 80 to 150% price difference nothing. It may be chump change to us, but the price differentiation is significant.

Dark Drifter
Amarr
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.20 18:35:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore

It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.


maller to proph <-amazing buffer capability
omen to harby <-exelent gankage at range

this is the thinking

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.21 03:04:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Dark Drifter
Originally by: Val'Dore

It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.


maller to proph <-amazing buffer capability
omen to harby <-exelent gankage at range

this is the thinking


Which is the problem, some of those ships are pregimped by the tier system. The Omen does good theoretical DPS, but it fails at the actual application of DPS. The Prophecy and Maller both fill a niche role that really doesn't need so many ships in it. If the Proph had 8 turrets, it might be viable with no dmg bonus.

Vance Black
Caldari
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2011.03.21 03:20:00 - [41]
 

The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.

Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2011.03.21 05:01:00 - [42]
 

do it!

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.21 06:09:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Vance Black
The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.


They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded.

Quote:
Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?


I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means.

Nyalnara
Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions

Posted - 2011.03.21 11:09:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Tub Chil
while supporting this I realize that nothing will change in the space for the next 2-3 years. shoes, jackets, sunglasses and sexy asses are way too important.

Vance Black
Caldari
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2011.03.24 03:54:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Vance Black on 24/03/2011 03:56:32
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Vance Black
The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.


They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded.

Quote:
Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?


I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means.


Iteration means the act of repeating a process usually with the aim of approaching a desired goal or target or result. Each repetition of the process is also called an "iteration," and the results of one iteration are used as the starting point for the next iteration. (had to double check wikipedia, havent done any programming in a few years since i left uni)

CCP Tuxford rebalanced the Tech level 1 ships a few years back (the original balancing process), (cant remember exact dates). They have not been revisited since. That sounds like a lack of iteration to me.




Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.24 03:56:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Vance Black
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Vance Black
The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.


They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded.

Quote:
Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?


I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means.


Iteration means the act of repeating a process usually with the aim of approaching a desired goal or target or result. Each repetition of the process is also called an "iteration," and the results of one iteration are used as the starting point for the next iteration.

CCP Tuxford rebalanced the Tech level 1 ships a few years back, (cant remember exact dates). They have not been revisited since. That sounds like a lack of iteration to me.


You should be more specific about what iteration you refer to then since that was impossible to glean from your post.

Vance Black
Caldari
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2011.03.24 03:57:00 - [47]
 

check the edit

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.24 17:39:00 - [48]
 

Right, anyway, doesn't change the fact that Tuxford didn't dump the tier system and it still needs to be axed.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.10 17:45:00 - [49]
 

Back from the honeymoon. Now for the Nyx Bump.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.04.11 01:15:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Dark Drifter

maller to proph <-amazing buffer capability



A buffer is nothing without something backing it up. A tank only matters when you're being shot at, gank always helps. Who cares if you have double the ehp, but paying for that with having half the dps, one third the speed, no dronebay, the agility of a glacier...

Being obvious bait is not a role.

Originally by: Dark Drifter

omen to harby <-exelent gankage at range



Are you aware that a rail thorax(or even a laserax) outdamages an omen at that range? The same is true of a caracal, or a shield rupture.

Not only do those ships outperform it at it's intended role, but they also have the flexibility that it doesn't. There is no reason to pick an omen over another cruiser unless you can't fly them.


Heavenly Blues
Posted - 2011.04.11 11:42:00 - [51]
 

Not supported.

Where is the CCP that is capable of producing balanced content? Everything they have touched the last 3 years has turned into ****.

Fix all the damn bugs. CCP is incapable of producing quality content. Just leave it alone before they **** it up even more.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.11 15:26:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Heavenly Blues
Not supported.

Where is the CCP that is capable of producing balanced content? Everything they have touched the last 3 years has turned into ****.

Fix all the damn bugs. CCP is incapable of producing quality content. Just leave it alone before they **** it up even more.


Thanks for the bump.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.17 19:12:00 - [53]
 

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2011.04.18 00:49:00 - [54]
 

*wonders why he didn't support this already*

Kiev Duran
Caldari
Retribution. Inc.
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:31:00 - [55]
 

I for one would like to see more of the ships underused due to something as arbitrary as tier, such as the Ferox.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:58:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Kiev Duran
I for one would like to see more of the ships underused due to something as arbitrary as tier, such as the Ferox.


I like the Ferox, but yeah, it could definately use a bit of a stat boost to really shine next to other BCs.

Mr DurkaDur
Posted - 2011.04.19 01:07:00 - [57]
 


Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 12:27:00 - [58]
 

For the record, I suspect that CCP is thinking about tiering issues, as I made a general comment about imbalance within the frigate range in one of the round tables at Fanfest and Chronotis asked (unprompted) whether I was talking about tiers.

Still, can't hurt to keep talking about it.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:18:00 - [59]
 

Indeed, thanks for that tidbit.

Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
1st Grave
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:28:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Val'Dore

The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.


No, the important thing is the rebalance part. Tiering on its own is not an issue at all.


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