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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.06 00:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Val''Dore on 06/03/2011 00:55:39

Originally by: Original Concept Thread
The odd name for this thread basically means Killing the Tier System.

Pros and Cons of the current tier system for tech I ships:

Pros
  • None


Cons
  • Obsoletes nearly half the Tech I ship lineup simply by existing

  • Arbitrarily dictates ship build cost

  • Impacts balance excessively

  • Has no logical basis


I see several ways to go about committing tiericide:

  1. Reduce all class appropriate skill requirements to lvl 1 (the skill that affects the bonuses)

  2. Change material cost to be based on mass (Tech 1 only)

  3. Adjust hp, cap, and fitting values to be more normalized

  4. Make the ship bonuses and slots be the differentiating factors

  5. Tweak individual ships to be more unique if there is excessive overlap

  6. Possibly add role bonuses to each ship to further define them (such as the Omen's could be 50% optimal range, Caracal's might be 25% shield resist, Stabber's could be 50% webifier range, etc)


Any thoughts?


Link to Original Thread

Addendums to be added.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.06 01:12:00 - [2]
 

Reserved for Addendums

Rented
Posted - 2011.03.06 03:50:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Rented on 06/03/2011 03:50:31
Posting to confirm the Tier system is terrible.

Battleship tiers are mostly just fine, but a large portion of cruisers/frigates are tier-ed into awfulness... this is sad Sad

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.06 05:18:00 - [4]
 

as always, i support this idea

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.06 10:16:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Rented
Edited by: Rented on 06/03/2011 03:50:31
Posting to confirm the Tier system is terrible.

Battleship tiers are mostly just fine, but a large portion of cruisers/frigates are tier-ed into awfulness... this is sad Sad

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.06 10:46:00 - [6]
 

I sort of agree, but I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle.

The problem that needs fixing is that a whole bunch of the available T1 ships are worthless garbage, the fact that CCP decided to make some of them worthless garbage as some quirk of a tier system is rather beside the point (and really, there's a number of higher-tier ships that are worthless garbage as well). I agree that basing varied material costs and skill requirements on the tier system is fairly pointless, but tweaks to the actual attributes of each ship should be done on the basis of making that individual ship useful and balanced, not as part of a drive to remove tiering.

Half a thumbs up, I guess.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.06 12:07:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
I sort of agree, but I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle.

The problem that needs fixing is that a whole bunch of the available T1 ships are worthless garbage, the fact that CCP decided to make some of them worthless garbage as some quirk of a tier system is rather beside the point (and really, there's a number of higher-tier ships that are worthless garbage as well). I agree that basing varied material costs and skill requirements on the tier system is fairly pointless, but tweaks to the actual attributes of each ship should be done on the basis of making that individual ship useful and balanced, not as part of a drive to remove tiering.

Half a thumbs up, I guess.


It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.

grypher
Posted - 2011.03.06 14:31:00 - [8]
 

+1 of course.

Jahpahjay
Posted - 2011.03.06 15:39:00 - [9]
 

Let's give eve some "new" and improved ships to work with. It should be fairly easy to implement given that there won't be any new ship modules to make--just tweaking existing code to make the ships on par with each other.

Granted I know it's not as easy as saying it, but hopefully this is low hanging fruit and an easy win for all of eve and it's diverse citizens.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.06 20:06:00 - [10]
 

You're talking about a whole expansion's worth of work here. If it was an option between the T1 rebalance (and despite the terminology, that is exactly what you're talking about) and practically everything else that could be done to improve the game, I'd put the T1 rebalance on the bottom of the list. Sure, it could be done, and sure it might make the game a little more interesting for 15 minutes until people figure out the new fotm, but the effort/reward ratio is divide by zero.

This is not a "thousand papercuts" or "size doesn't matter" proposal, it's a "no other expansion this cycle" proposal, and that sounds like an absolutely awful idea.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront

Posted - 2011.03.06 20:20:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: mkmin
You're talking about...

They managed to redesign all the faction frigates and add new faction hulls all as a side note to an expansion.
Also note the rejuvenating effect the new scrams, webs and speed balancing (ie. QR) had on PvP, that too was a side note to an expansion.

Besides, if proposals are to be restricted by whatever may require :effort: from the Devs, then there would just be one thread here, namely "FIX LAGZOR!".

Fistme
Posted - 2011.03.06 20:27:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: mkmin
You're talking about a whole expansion's worth of work here. If it was an option between the T1 rebalance (and despite the terminology, that is exactly what you're talking about) and practically everything else that could be done to improve the game, I'd put the T1 rebalance on the bottom of the list. Sure, it could be done, and sure it might make the game a little more interesting for 15 minutes until people figure out the new fotm, but the effort/reward ratio is divide by zero.

This is not a "thousand papercuts" or "size doesn't matter" proposal, it's a "no other expansion this cycle" proposal, and that sounds like an absolutely awful idea.


if you think that the eve community would not welcome a large scale "expansion" that addresses the balance of all t1 ships (most people fly t1 ships btw) then you're being silly.

I can almost guarantee you that if CCP overhauled all t1 ships TONS of old players would come back to see what has been changed. I've come back multiple times for expansions that have far less content than what is being suggested here...

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.06 20:37:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: mkmin
You're talking about...

They managed to redesign all the faction frigates and add new faction hulls all as a side note to an expansion.
Also note the rejuvenating effect the new scrams, webs and speed balancing (ie. QR) had on PvP, that too was a side note to an expansion.

Besides, if proposals are to be restricted by whatever may require :effort: from the Devs, then there would just be one thread here, namely "FIX LAGZOR!".


Yes, because an ad hoc rebalance of faction frigs made all of them used not just the dramiel. Rolling Eyes And the speed nerf didn't cause all kinds of bugs, and break the balance on dozens of other ships and 2 full races. They are still fixing the unanticipated imbalances caused by the speed nerf, and it was almost 2 years ago. Now the suggestion is to redesign every single T1 ship in the game, essentially from scratch, and make sure all the T2, T3, and faction ships, with the limitless number of potential fittings, stay in complete balance. Just because a suggestion is presented as simple, does not make an idea simple. And the ultimate results would be a simple change of the flavor of the month.

I maintain that there is no significant gameplay reward to do an entire rebalance at this time, especially considering the massive amount of resources needed to do the job well instead of halfassed. Also considering other aspects of in-space needs to be rebalanced, balancing the ships first would mean once other more necessary balances are done, the ship rebalancing would then be broken and all those developer resources completely wasted.

It's not a bad idea long-term, just not a good idea right now.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.06 21:45:00 - [14]
 

Most of the rebalance is native to dumping tiers. Further tweaking would be warranted or not on an individual hull basis.

I'm sure CCP is better than any of us at planning out what they are spending dev time on.

Fistme
Posted - 2011.03.06 21:45:00 - [15]
 

Anyone who is suggestion that a total revamp of t1 ships as "simple" is foolish, this i can agree upon. However re-balancing a large part of the game all at once has some key advantages even outside the overly simple explanation of "making everything useful".





Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:18:00 - [16]
 

Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.03.07 01:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sahmul
Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"


lol...Wut? So you want to make it even more like "rock, paper, scissors" than it already is? Sorry...not supported. You take away the Tier system and you ruin the diversity in the game.

Then once the Tier system is revamped you have to revamped the skills system to go along with it. It will never happen. Tier system is here to stay.

Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2011.03.07 02:57:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Originally by: Sahmul
Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"


lol...Wut? So you want to make it even more like "rock, paper, scissors" than it already is? Sorry...not supported. You take away the Tier system and you ruin the diversity in the game.

Then once the Tier system is revamped you have to revamped the skills system to go along with it. It will never happen. Tier system is here to stay.


You know, I'd prefer Rock-Paper-Scissors balance to Rifter-Rifter-Rifter that we have in place at the moment. I say this as someone who adores the Rifter incidentally, but it also shouldn't be the obvious choice for every bloody role except maybe scanning.

Balance based on roles will increase diversity, not reduce it, because you will be able to choose a ship to fit a role, rather than just doing a few hours training and using the Rifter for everything.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.07 04:22:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Originally by: Sahmul
Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"


lol...Wut? So you want to make it even more like "rock, paper, scissors" than it already is?


You must be one of those who think one ship should do everything, rather than using the correct ship for the purpose.

Quote:
Sorry...not supported. You take away the Tier system and you ruin the diversity in the game.


What a foolishly ignorant statement.

Quote:
Then once the Tier system is revamped you have to revamped the skills system to go along with it.


The skill system would need exactly zero changes related to removing tier.

Quote:
It will never happen. Tier system is here to stay.


Not your call to make.

Naomi Ito
Posted - 2011.03.07 09:49:00 - [20]
 

Supported! Very Happy

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2011.03.07 11:06:00 - [21]
 

making ships useful? yes.

whaynethepain
Dissident Aggressors
Mordus Angels
Posted - 2011.03.07 12:05:00 - [22]
 

Yea, nice one.

"The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP."

Yea, me and my mates want more ship types, I want faction destroyers, we have discussed formation flying too, this would be very useful.

Nice one, cheers.

Levistus Junior
Caldari
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2011.03.07 12:10:00 - [23]
 

Supported, although not sure whether this should take priority over other, more urgent stuff.

Tub Chil
Posted - 2011.03.07 12:52:00 - [24]
 

while supporting this I realize that nothing will change in the space for the next 2-3 years. shoes, jackets, sunglasses and sexy asses are way too important.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:48:00 - [25]
 

Frigates are fun. People use T1 frigates from time to time no matter their SP. T1 cruisers... not so much. Honestly, the only people who use T1 cruisers are people who haven't yet trained BC or T2 cruisers. Most people blow through the T1 cruiser phase in less than a month. As such, in the grand scheme of things, rebalancing ships that are rarely used isn't worth the time or effort right now.

Rebalance frigates (T1, faction, T2)? Yes. Battleship tiers make sense. T2 cruisers could use a bit of rebalancing (but not terribly important either right now).

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.07 16:58:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Frigates are fun. People use T1 frigates from time to time no matter their SP. T1 cruisers... not so much. Honestly, the only people who use T1 cruisers are people who haven't yet trained BC or T2 cruisers. Most people blow through the T1 cruiser phase in less than a month.


Most people get to BSes as fast as the skill system allows, that doesn't mean that is the smart thing to do.

Quote:
As such, in the grand scheme of things, rebalancing ships that are rarely used isn't worth the time or effort right now.


The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.

Quote:
Battleship tiers make sense.


No they don't, but I'll bite the bait anyway: Why?

Quote:
T2 cruisers could use a bit of rebalancing (but not terribly important either right now).


Nothing is terribly important right now, but T2 are not part of this topic either way.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.03.07 17:22:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Most people get to BSes as fast as the skill system allows, that doesn't mean that is the smart thing to do.

BSs are usually a bad idea. Most end up sticking with BCs, which is the logical choice for players between 1-12 months.

Originally by: Val'Dore
The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.

From a skill perspective or from a construction cost perspective?

Originally by: Val'Dore
No they don't, but I'll bite the bait anyway: Why?

A tier 1 BS < tier 2 BS < tier 3 BS
When it comes to tank, damage output, and versatility, the higher the tier BS, the more you get out of it.

Originally by: Val'Dore
Nothing is terribly important right now, but T2 are not part of this topic either way.

Sure, I was just pointing out that rebalancing is needed throughout the game.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.07 18:53:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore

The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.



Then what's the point? Cost differences either don't matter or are actually a good thing (gives rookies something to work for.) Skill training differences don't matter.

Changing those 2 parts of the tier system would affect absolutely nothing without a complete rebalance of all ships of every size, every tech level, and of every class, plus all the weapon systems, and every module. Intensive computer simulations would need to be run to calculate that no ships will have an advantage over the others and thus become the "flavor of the month" and make the rest obsolete. And when you're done, the state of a game where every single thing is balanced, it will mean that there cannot be any way for any ship to gain an advantage over another which means every ship feels exactly like every other ship. That is bad for gameplay (and the reason I find vanilla shooters like Halo boring) and a complete waste of massive amounts of dev time to get the results you are looking for.

Ships will never be completely balanced, and that's okay. Small balancing changes are made all the time. If you have something specific, propose it. As a general "everything should be fixed" well, no duh, sherlock. I hope the devs are smart enough to realize how poorly thought out this idea is, and what a massive waste of time it would be to carry out.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.03.07 21:12:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore

The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.


No, the important thing is the rebalance part. Tiering on its own is not an issue at all.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.07 22:33:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Val'Dore

The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.


No, the important thing is the rebalance part. Tiering on its own is not an issue at all.


They go hand in hand I spose. You can't have a tier system and have balance too.


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