open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Incursion : the elitist snobbery of EVE
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Ragnaarak
Posted - 2011.03.04 18:17:00 - [1]
 

I have been on four successful Vanguard fleets, with older versions of my ship, and yet when i try to join a fleet rather than start my own i get snobbed because my 'fit' isnt picture perfect, eg tech 2, and people start critising.
Well hey my pilot isnt that old and getting tech 2 skills take time.
Till then i fight hard, i do damage to the enemy and i carry different modules in my huge cargo bay so i switch them round as needed..
Frankly all the elitist bastards that demand perfect fits for any fleet in Incursion need to realise that people want to play the game, so give people a chance FFS.

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.03.04 18:25:00 - [2]
 

I think I remember reading something like this... on WoW forums. ugh

Lurtz
Caldari
Gunrunners and Gamblers
Posted - 2011.03.04 18:57:00 - [3]
 

Depends on the role you are there for.... if you are there as DPS, most won't crit too much, but for some roles, Command ships and especially logistics where their ship is in your hands, I can understand them being leery

Ragnaarak
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:01:00 - [4]
 

Im a DPS pilot, still getting crit's

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:17:00 - [5]
 

Ha ha, you should have seen the drama when 0.0 FC's got involved in faction warfare.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:19:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ragnaarak
Im a DPS pilot, still getting crit's


I've had the 'pilot competency reputation' issue on my mind for a while. I don't think there is a simple method for marking a pilot as known to be competent.

It's true, you might not NEED full T2 fittings to be competent, especially in roles that have a bit more flexibility. And yes, I imagine a lot of pilots being awfully picky about who they choose to fly with, as hundreds of millions of isk in fittings are on the line. But, given that, my instinct says that if you're being constantly rejected, it has more to do with not being willing to take feedback on an outright failfit. Given the option of someone who's gonna be able to contribute to someone who at best does not and at worst can make us lose the fleet, I'd rather take the person who can contribute. I don't know what loadout you've been trying to fleet up with, but that's what my instinct is yelling out.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:20:00 - [7]
 

There's a few reason for this:

1)There's a difference between filling a slot that would otherwise have been empty on a team, and LEADING a team. Just from the way you describe the scenario, not even going into the lack of t2 mods, tells me instantly that you've not yet learned enough about the game to be leading successful fleets.

2)Incursions represent pve with competition. If you lose, you get nothing. And bringing in people with poor fits (and no, not being able to fit t2 is not "not picture perfect" it's poor) is a good way to lose out on a lot of potential isk. I know this from experience, as I quite often OD entire fleets with my vindicator if their makeup/fits aren't up to par, and when your 10 man fleet is getting ODd by one guy + 2 basis(which deal no damage) you know you're doing something wrong.

Elitism is not telling people with t1 fits to go away, that's common sense. You want elitism, come back when your fleet tells you to gtfo because you don't have a faction fit t3/faction ship to run sites with. Understand that incursions are the most difficult pve encounters in the game, and this goes double for highsec. They're INTENDED to be run by people with oodles of SP. Train up some t2 stuff (which for one specific ship does NOT take that long) and stop complaining.

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:37:00 - [8]
 

Possibly the FC has limited leadership skills and has to make the most use of every available slot or something.

I know I'm only trained to make a fleet of, what, 20 people, if I was going for an incursion I'd want everyone in as good a fit as possible.

Ghengis Tia
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:47:00 - [9]
 

The first big red flag I noticed when Incursion was announced was the "fleeting up" with other pilots, which translates into "solo players are SOL".

Now it boils down to FC whim and arbitrary standards imposed on anyone who begs to join up.

I can certainly see the tactical necessity of having competency on your left and right in order to succeed, but am I missing something here? I thought Incursions was supposed to get solitary mission-runners some exposure to what its like to be in a fleet and see how fun it is.

"Noob" fleets are scorned and laughed at, and established corporations with seasoned squadrons have a huge advantage to reap the rewards. Non "in-crowd" types need not apply.

Maybe the next expansion will have something I'll be able to participate in without having to kiss some corporation's arse.





Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Lurtz
Depends on the role you are there for.... if you are there as DPS, most won't crit too much, but for some roles, Command ships and especially logistics where their ship is in your hands, I can understand them being leery



Some of the best logistics fits use meta4 t1 items rather than t2.

People who reject those fits do so out of ignorance.

Deen Wispa
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:54:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Deen Wispa on 04/03/2011 19:54:15
Originally by: Cambarus
There's a few reason for this:

1)There's a difference between filling a slot that would otherwise have been empty on a team, and LEADING a team. Just from the way you describe the scenario, not even going into the lack of t2 mods, tells me instantly that you've not yet learned enough about the game to be leading successful fleets.

2)Incursions represent pve with competition. If you lose, you get nothing. And bringing in people with poor fits (and no, not being able to fit t2 is not "not picture perfect" it's poor) is a good way to lose out on a lot of potential isk. I know this from experience, as I quite often OD entire fleets with my vindicator if their makeup/fits aren't up to par, and when your 10 man fleet is getting ODd by one guy + 2 basis(which deal no damage) you know you're doing something wrong.

Elitism is not telling people with t1 fits to go away, that's common sense. You want elitism, come back when your fleet tells you to gtfo because you don't have a faction fit t3/faction ship to run sites with. Understand that incursions are the most difficult pve encounters in the game, and this goes double for highsec. They're INTENDED to be run by people with oodles of SP. Train up some t2 stuff (which for one specific ship does NOT take that long) and stop complaining.


Good points. I hear the, "it's just a game" defense quite a bit. And I do agree it's just a game. However, it's also people's time that they put into it. The FC spends alot of time leading the charge and doesn't want his nor his fleet's time wasted with people with lolfittings. And even if you don't have LOLfittings, it's his prerogative to decide how you should fit and if you belong. Because in Incursion, one weak link can ruin another pilot's day.

randomname4me
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Ghengis Tia
solo players are SOL
mMorpg

Please stop complaining when the developers add multiplayer content to a multiplayer game.

Harbingour
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:00:00 - [13]
 

Must be nice to be even able to play in these high sec Incursions. I have a Terrible Amarr faction status and since the past 11 (!) spawns have all been in Amarr ( the 2 previous in the Amarrite Mandate ) I'm BLOCKED. The low sec incursions are even more clickish then the Armour shield fleet clicks in hi sec I've learned :(

Corozan Aspinall
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:01:00 - [14]
 

Elitist nerds with no social skills?

Not around here surely.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:02:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Deen Wispa
Edited by: Deen Wispa on 04/03/2011 19:54:15
Good points. I hear the, "it's just a game" defense quite a bit. And I do agree it's just a game. However, it's also people's time that they put into it. The FC spends alot of time leading the charge and doesn't want his nor his fleet's time wasted with people with lolfittings. And even if you don't have LOLfittings, it's his prerogative to decide how you should fit and if you belong. Because in Incursion, one weak link can ruin another pilot's day.


Mostly this. Im not a top fc for incursions but I am a FC. One of the major factors of incursion fittings is, the FCs and logistics are flying some really expensive ships usually to tank the inital alpha or, to provide heavy hitting. (FC has to stand out a little) But we try not to have any weak links, if you cannot use tech 2 but fit your ship with meta 4 items, you are generally good to go, we won't ask questions. Fitting tech 1 modules is just a no no. If you have problems with fittings or dont have enough isk, sometime fleet members are good enough to loan out some isk so you can get better fittings.


But as a pilot it is your duty to ask about fittings and ask for alternatives to your fittings whining about it wont get you anywhere. You will find most FC's are very open to discussion about fittings and getting you where you need to be.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:18:00 - [16]
 

You can make up for lack of t2 by using the cheaper faction gear instead. A fed navy armor hardner, for example, gives the same resists as a t2 armor hardner and only cost ~25 mil. They're flying t3s, hacs, web bonused marauders/baggahorn/vindy into that vanguard site, they won't let you leech off them in an insured t1 bc with bad skills unless they know you're willing to commit. If you hit the wrong trigger, you can wipe their expensive boats. Committing an expensive boat yourself assures them you will take it seriously. Look into buying something like fleet phon or navy geddon, basically boats that look expensive at first glance, but at 200mil, are actually very cheap. Put on a few cheap 25 mil fed navy hardners, and you'll be much more popular for no practical reason, as they don't have web bonus or serve any special purpose.Razz

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:20:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ragnaarak
I have been on four successful Vanguard fleets, with older versions of my ship, and yet when i try to join a fleet rather than start my own i get snobbed because my 'fit' isnt picture perfect, eg tech 2, and people start critising.
Well hey my pilot isnt that old and getting tech 2 skills take time.
Till then i fight hard, i do damage to the enemy and i carry different modules in my huge cargo bay so i switch them round as needed..
Frankly all the elitist bastards that demand perfect fits for any fleet in Incursion need to realise that people want to play the game, so give people a chance FFS.

You asked for better PVE content, you got it.
Now deal with it.

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:29:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Lurtz
Depends on the role you are there for.... if you are there as DPS, most won't crit too much, but for some roles, Command ships and especially logistics where their ship is in your hands, I can understand them being leery



Some of the best logistics fits use meta4 t1 items rather than t2.

People who reject those fits do so out of ignorance.




its pretty much the only way to fit out a basilisk or guardian properly, if you want rep, tank, eccm and ab.

the t2 transporters have too higher fitting requirements to make the fit entirely t2 no matter if you have all 5's in support skills. fitting the t2 versions means compromising or removing something else as vital as the repping modules.

t1 1600mm armour is a good example of t1 being as good or better than t2. t1 artillery can also work just as well in alpha fleets.

I can understand fc's worrying about fail fits though. even dps ships can be badly fitted or under tanked (sebo ***** shield canes for example) or have range issues not compatible with the fleet (blasterthrons in a armor alpha artillery fleet) which will cause the fc to ask for the ship to be refitted.

randomname4me
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
You asked for better PVE content, you got it.
Now deal with it.
You should know by now that they didn't want new PVE content they would have to work for. Just buffed LVL4 mission rewards.

Rrama Ratamnim
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:47:00 - [20]
 

hate to say this but theirs a reason for this ...

Since Incursions launched theres normally 2 fleets for the final incursion room.... an armor and a shield fleet... and the fact is especially in hisec ones, theres always a strong showing of people... but only the first X (i think 100) in the fleet matter, because once it goes over that number the fleet even if it wins gets 0 reward... so what happens is the FC's for the 2 fleets tend to start throwing people out with the incorrect fit to be replaced with higher DPS ships, why? because your t1 fit ship wont add as much DPS as a torp raven fully t2 fit, so your little drake gets thrown out or you raven t1 fit gets thrown out...

this is so that they can keep the fleet under the #, and so that they can also have enough DPS to try to outpace the competing fleet...

Its the same in the smaller site fleets, but not as stringent, because the # of people still matters, but honestly the small sites arent normally a DPS race like the SC battle is.

DarthNefarius
Amarr
Minmatar Heavy Industries
Knights of Tomorrow
Posted - 2011.03.04 21:18:00 - [21]
 

the low sec incursions are even tougher to get into since no one trusts each other out there unless they are in the same alliance I've found out

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.03.04 21:26:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 04/03/2011 22:10:31
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Edited by: Deen Wispa on 04/03/2011 19:54:15
Good points. I hear the, "it's just a game" defense quite a bit. And I do agree it's just a game. However, it's also people's time that they put into it. The FC spends alot of time leading the charge and doesn't want his nor his fleet's time wasted with people with lolfittings. And even if you don't have LOLfittings, it's his prerogative to decide how you should fit and if you belong. Because in Incursion, one weak link can ruin another pilot's day.


Mostly this. Im not a top fc for incursions but I am a FC. One of the major factors of incursion fittings is, the FCs and logistics are flying some really expensive ships usually to tank the inital alpha or, to provide heavy hitting. (FC has to stand out a little) But we try not to have any weak links, if you cannot use tech 2 but fit your ship with meta 4 items, you are generally good to go, we won't ask questions. Fitting tech 1 modules is just a no no. If you have problems with fittings or dont have enough isk, sometime fleet members are good enough to loan out some isk so you can get better fittings.


But as a pilot it is your duty to ask about fittings and ask for alternatives to your fittings whining about it wont get you anywhere. You will find most FC's are very open to discussion about fittings and getting you where you need to be.



There is a lot to be said for this.


The issue with Incursion fleets is not snobbery, but survival.

Think for a moment about that scene from 300 when Leonidas would not let the hunchbacked guy into his group. He had to make the case that the shield had to be held at a certain height, and failure to do so was dangerous to everybody else.


The lower level Incursion sites will let you get away lopsided fleets and cheaper gear, and that's where you have to find the right FC. Some FCs want to go all the way to the top, right up to the mom fight, while others are new and want to to easier sites. The more ambitious FCs have to carefully consider who they let into the fleet.


Even with good DPS and logistics ships it's not a matter of personal choice. Recently an FCORD commanded fleet had run into the issue of having too many RR battleships and learning that DPS is a form of tank. Eventually the Sansha NPCs would primary the logistics before anyone can do anything about it, because it was taking too long to kill the enemy. You can have an RR heavy BS lineup in the easier sites but your DPS in the harder sites better be up as well as the logistics. There is little room for error and it appears that there are no stalemates either. If you take too long you will lose the logistics.

So it's not a matter of having a "cookie cutter incursion fit" and you automatically get into fleet.

You can also run into issues depending on where you are. It's not as easy, for example, to find an armor fleet deep into in Amarr space.

My recommendation: look at the fleet compositions and the fits that get approval and see what the demand is for. I have not seen so much criticizing but sound advice instead. Yeah sometimes someone trolls a fail fit in the incursion channel but that's vey obvious when it happens. If someone tells you to drop a RR or change something out they might be giving advice based on experience and I have observed that the people giving the advice are players I have seen before and been in fleet with, so I know they have experience.


Eve gets the worse reputation for things that I have seen in other games, and in Eve it's not as bad as I have seen in other games. Snobbery happens, but in Eve it's not as bad as some people make it out to be.


I would even suggest that you specialist your tank, and then advertise "will gear up to fit" in the channel. I don't recall that we had to invest ego or be married to our configurations.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.03.04 21:45:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 21:45:43
Quote:

I have been on four successful Vanguard fleets, with older versions of my ship, and yet when i try to join a fleet rather than start my own i get snobbed because my 'fit' isnt picture perfect, eg tech 2, and people start critising.
Well hey my pilot isnt that old and getting tech 2 skills take time.
Till then i fight hard, i do damage to the enemy and i carry different modules in my huge cargo bay so i switch them round as needed..
Frankly all the elitist bastards that demand perfect fits for any fleet in Incursion need to realise that people want to play the game, so give people a chance FFS



We only accept resto specced druids dude YARRRR!!













Lolret! Very Happy

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2011.03.04 21:50:00 - [24]
 

As a logi pilot who flies incursion pretty much whenever I play and there's one on, I have to say that without a proper t2 fit, at least in terms of tanking, is going to get you killed.

In higher class sites, having a properly fit tank is essential to running these sites because the NPCs hit too hard for anything subpar. Logistics can only do so much for you if you start to go down in a poorly fit ship, and frankly it's sometimes a waste of our resources to put significant amounts of our limited repping power onto your ship, especially if there are others being shot at.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.03.04 21:56:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Feilamya

Now deal with it.

hey-hey, whoa, you can't use this line if you have no sunglasses Laughing

Blackjack Turner
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.03.04 22:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Feilamya

Now deal with it.

hey-hey, whoa, you can't use this line if you have no sunglasses Laughing




LOL!!

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.04 22:52:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Victor Valka
I think I remember reading something like this... on *Blasphemy* forums. ugh


That's cause it uses a horribly flawed system of imposing limits to the maximum number of players you can have in a group pve event. Fortunately with eve we are encouraged to take as many players as possible, part of the sandbox environment.

/sarcasm


Sigh CCP continue to leave 90% of their game to rot in brokenness while they can add new things like pub raids and raid limits, two of the most horrible things about *Blasphemy* that I've always been able to rub in my *Blasphemy* playing friends faces.


FAKE EDIT: Removed mentions to *Blasphemy*

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.04 23:39:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ragnaarak
I have been on four successful Vanguard fleets, with older versions of my ship, and yet when i try to join a fleet rather than start my own i get snobbed because my 'fit' isnt picture perfect, eg tech 2, and people start critising.
Well hey my pilot isnt that old and getting tech 2 skills take time.
Till then i fight hard, i do damage to the enemy and i carry different modules in my huge cargo bay so i switch them round as needed..
Frankly all the elitist bastards that demand perfect fits for any fleet in Incursion need to realise that people want to play the game, so give people a chance FFS.


Yeah the rule that stops you running your own fleets should be changed, I guess. That rule is pretty unfair. Until CCP change the rule, then fleets of people who have brought decent ships should be forced by the GMs to accept your ****-fit drake.


Freelanc3r
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.03.05 01:06:00 - [29]
 

It's the same reason the fat kid gets picked last for sports... no one wants a useless **** on their team.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.03.05 03:11:00 - [30]
 

So you want them to:

1) Like you.
2) Give you their isk.
3) Be responsible for your enjoyment.

You want this from strangers?


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only