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Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:13:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Mr Cleann on 03/03/2011 16:15:23
Great idea!! As long as it don't require getting fuel. Jump range can be based on skills with level 5 being good for up to 10 systems. and level one able two jump up to 2 systems. When you come out of warp it is in a random location within that system or mid-point system. Where you wait a couple minutes to recharge the warp core before you can proceed.

betoli
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:20:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Mr Cleann
Edited by: Mr Cleann on 03/03/2011 16:15:23
Great idea!! As long as it don't require getting fuel. Jump range can be based on skills with level 5 being good for up to 10 systems. and level one able two jump up to 2 systems. When you come out of warp it is in a random location within that system or mid-point system. Where you wait a couple minutes to recharge the warp core before you can proceed.


goodbye market.

Phosphofuctokinase 1
Posted - 2011.03.03 19:19:00 - [33]
 

This is a terrible idea. It removes choke points (both at the gates, and for routes in general), removes dead-end systems, makes it impossible to do things like kill freighters except on the undock, and doesnt really add anything to the game.


Charles Baker
Gallente
Unour Heavy Industries
Posted - 2011.03.03 20:12:00 - [34]
 

The Capacitor Drain from jumping would leave ships vulnerable to being scanned down post-jump. Makes PVP opportunities more freeform instead of just camping gates :)

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.04 02:49:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Phosphofuctokinase 1
This is a terrible idea. It removes choke points (both at the gates, and for routes in general), removes dead-end systems, makes it impossible to do things like kill freighters except on the undock, and doesnt really add anything to the game.




Actually, it could very well increase the frequency and quality of pvp engagements if done correctly.

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2011.03.04 04:53:00 - [36]
 

Actually if the aim is to counter gate camping the same thing can be accomplished by dramatically increasing the landing area of a jump gate and having a greater probility of landing at the edge.

Add another 15 seconds to the auto cloak and most ships will be aligned and entering warp before the cloak runs out.

Seems easier then re inventing intersteller travel.

Phosphofuctokinase 1
Posted - 2011.03.04 06:26:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Phosphofuctokinase 1
This is a terrible idea. It removes choke points (both at the gates, and for routes in general), removes dead-end systems, makes it impossible to do things like kill freighters except on the undock, and doesnt really add anything to the game.




Actually, it could very well increase the frequency and quality of pvp engagements if done correctly.


Do you realize that this basically increases the volume of the game by a factor about probably around 10^9 or so?

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.03.04 07:03:00 - [38]
 

This would be the end of blobs, bubble camps, and gank pipelines.

Small gang and solo PVP would flourish, and warfare in Eve would become a game of real search and destroy, patrols, sweeps, etc.

Supported.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.04 07:06:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Phosphofuctokinase 1
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Phosphofuctokinase 1
This is a terrible idea. It removes choke points (both at the gates, and for routes in general), removes dead-end systems, makes it impossible to do things like kill freighters except on the undock, and doesnt really add anything to the game.




Actually, it could very well increase the frequency and quality of pvp engagements if done correctly.


Do you realize that this basically increases the volume of the game by a factor about probably around 10^9 or so?


There is no reason to require it to increase the volume of any current systems.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.03.04 09:59:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
Anyone who doesn't understand that the game server is a network of connected nodes, and doesn't actually have any space between those nodes should probably not post in this discussion.

This isn't a simple matter, there are massive issues with both server technology and game mechanics that would need to be solved first. Nobody in this thread has even attempted to address them.

Likewise, anyone that doesn't understand that transitions between nodes are possible without a 1990's style loading message should probably not post in this discussion either.

Please explain the massive issues with both server technology and game mechanics so we can attempt to address them.

In regards to making space bigger, its not possible to say that that will be the case either without more detailed mechanics.

Considering that there will always need to be a point A - point B path that will be known to all players ie Rens <-> Jita, chokepoints will still exist. Consider also that if it was possible to intercept a warping player that a scanner would most likely need to be employed to do so, and that you don't have a specific scanner radius (it could be a couple of ly even), its not possible to conclude that space would be made bigger or hunting made harder.

Its extremely unlikely they'll ever do this in EVE but its being done in another game (ITQFE) and given that in computer programming, the barriers to what you can and cannot do usually lie with the development team and not computer programming / technology in general.

Kara Sharalien
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.03.04 10:58:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona

Likewise, anyone that doesn't understand that transitions between nodes are possible without a 1990's style loading message should probably not post in this discussion either.



Speaking of people posting in this thread without knowing what the **** they are talking about, you have no clue about the underlying structure of eves server-side software.

You speak in an abstract fashion about loading screens being unnecessary, probably thinking about dungeon siege or some other similar game.

But you don't know CCP's software. You don't know their hardware. Really, you have no clue whether it is technically feasible to modify CCP's current eve-related assets to allow for seamless transition from one node to another.

So don't pretend otherwise, mmmkay?

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.03.04 10:58:00 - [42]
 

You ask me what problems the server would have to overcome, then you site Infinity as an example. I have followed the development of infinity for years, and as impressive as it is:

1) they have no game yet, so it's not a fair comparison, as they obviously haven't even begun to tackle the gameplay mechanics issues which will inevitably result from putting a few thousand people into a radius of around 100,000 lightyears.

2) you are suggesting that Eve ditches those nodes in favour of this style of game which is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE without rewriting almost the entirety of the core of the game.

Yes, in theory it is a great idea, but so are magic carpets, cloned dinosaurs and cars which call you Michael.

betoli
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.04 12:22:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
You ask me what problems the server would have to overcome, then you site Infinity as an example. I have followed the development of infinity for years, and as impressive as it is:

1) they have no game yet, so it's not a fair comparison, as they obviously haven't even begun to tackle the gameplay mechanics issues which will inevitably result from putting a few thousand people into a radius of around 100,000 lightyears.

2) you are suggesting that Eve ditches those nodes in favour of this style of game which is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE without rewriting almost the entirety of the core of the game.

Yes, in theory it is a great idea, but so are magic carpets, cloned dinosaurs and cars which call you Michael.


writing in block caps makes things true ;-)

It all depends what you mean by seamless, init. We are talking about a session change happening whilst in warp, not a 100 fleet space battle happening exactly on the border... just regard being in warp *as* the loading screen, and we can keep on drinking the kewl aid.

This was already all discussed in another thread, way back on page, er 5. I don't know why this new thread even exists.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.03.04 14:01:00 - [44]
 

This thread pops up twice a year but unlike the name change topic at least both sides progress the idea and counter idea further.

betoli
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.04 14:24:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
This thread pops up twice a year but unlike the name change topic at least both sides progress the idea and counter idea further.


Nope this one has less detail, less development, and less information about how to redress balance.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1447903

It would be good if someone posted a comprehensive suggestion, but this thread is a stuck record.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.03.04 16:30:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
*snip*
2) you are suggesting that Eve ditches those nodes in favour of this style of game which is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE without rewriting almost the entirety of the core of the game.
*snap*

Read from post #94 in the thread in my signature.. navigational there is no server rewrite necessary.

What is necessary is a complete overhaul of intel mechanics.

Tasardur
Posted - 2011.03.04 18:50:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
Though the general idea has been suggested many times before, there are a couple hundred other concerns and issues and topics that have to be involved in rectifying stargate removal entirely.

Now there are some illusions of grandure

Solving Lag isnt one of them, blobs will still happen.

Now another issue that comes into reality

As a new player without the skill, what is he going to do in system full of... nothing?



It has easy solution. just player starts with minimum jump range.

Tasardur
Posted - 2011.03.04 18:53:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: jahenhs
Fantastic! But I think ccp dont have balls to do it. They just gonna **** off.


Its a pretty ballsy move to take your flagship and only revenue raising product, and scrap it in favor of making a completely new game.

Stargates are as integral to eve as guns are to call of duty. Not only are they important backstory-wise, they (along with the market) are one of the two key elements of eve's gameplay structure.

eve without stargates is not eve at all.


You still will need to make the same jump path to reach the systems, like go Jita to buy or sell... you just will not use stargates to arrive there.

Tasardur
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:00:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Mr Cleann
Edited by: Mr Cleann on 03/03/2011 16:15:23
Great idea!! As long as it don't require getting fuel. Jump range can be based on skills with level 5 being good for up to 10 systems. and level one able two jump up to 2 systems. When you come out of warp it is in a random location within that system or mid-point system. Where you wait a couple minutes to recharge the warp core before you can proceed.


The range is based in ly range...

Sig Sour
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:18:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Actually, it could very well increase the frequency and quality of pvp engagements if done correctly.

Please, illustrate?

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.03.04 19:50:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Marchocias on 04/03/2011 21:39:33
Edited by: Marchocias on 04/03/2011 19:57:09
Originally by: betoli

writing in block caps makes things true ;-)

It all depends what you mean by seamless, init. We are talking about a session change happening whilst in warp, not a 100 fleet space battle happening exactly on the border... just regard being in warp *as* the loading screen, and we can keep on drinking the kewl aid.

This was already all discussed in another thread, way back on page, er 5. I don't know why this new thread even exists.



Block caps = win, everyone knows that!

Yes that other thread had a lot of much more detailed ideas discussed.

Originally by: Tres Farmer

Read from post #94 in the thread in my signature.. navigational there is no server rewrite necessary.

What is necessary is a complete overhaul of intel mechanics.


Yes, some alright ideas there... and it could be achieved on some level without server rewrite.

You still have the problem of what happens at borders though... lets say i have a scanner which can see all nearby hyperdrives (they have to be hyper, because they don't jump, and they've got to be vastly faster than warp). Do I connect to all nodes within range to get all the info (technically tricky), or do I only get people within the current node (easy, but a bit unsatisfactory)?

How do you get around the fact that there is simply nothing else there when there should be loads of stuff? The idea that almost every star out there is unreachable is a bit preposterous; I feel it would be unsatisfactory to use the current binary system plot device (as is used to explain stargates) on the basis that the the langrange-point-esque concept kinda makes sense for stable stargates but it seems stretched a bit thin for hyperdrives.

How would you render it, without it sucking arse?



If such ideas could be made to work, I'd be all for it, but I do still think that there are some real challenges to overcome before CCP could even begin to think risking such a seizmic shift in gameplay.


Edit: one thing in its favour... the exploration and missions system could overcome the problems of empty space by randomly generating new stars etc, as the locations used for new deep-space sites. Who would care that those stars disappear once the mission grid is despawned?

I would also recommend a new approach to concord if this were in effect... Concord only operating within some radius of the sun, with that radius increasing exponentially out as security approaches 1.0, so if you do decide to go into deep space beyond this radius, you're effectively entering losec. It'd be a bit lame to get concordokkened by ships from 50 lightyears away, in a 0.5 system.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:46:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Val'Dore
Actually, it could very well increase the frequency and quality of pvp engagements if done correctly.

Please, illustrate?


For one, there is no reason to not add in more tools to find people with no stargates to default to.

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.03.04 21:51:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Marchocias on 04/03/2011 22:10:32
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Val'Dore
Actually, it could very well increase the frequency and quality of pvp engagements if done correctly.

Please, illustrate?


Visit that other thread - there is definately some more detailed discussion on this kind of thing.

Essentially "done right" to me would mean:
  • leaving gates as they are,

  • re-allowing travel into deep space within systems,

  • introduce hyperdrives (only for non-capital ships) which are able to travel approximately 1/5 of the speed than equivalent journeys via stargates

  • have the drives require fuel,
  • making session change occur as your closest system changes,

  • and adding the ability to scan nearby moving hyperdrive signitures,

  • and adding the ability to plot an intercept course for the signiture, provided your ship is fast enough, with the proximity of the intercepting ship automatically "destabilising" the hyperdrive and dropping the target out of warp

  • have concord operate services at shorter ranges as security decreases in hisec, making deep space outside the radius effectively losec... some 1.0, 0.9 systems might have ranges which overlap, others will be islands, thus you might get caught by pirates between systems

  • new deep-space pve content, which also spawns new stars and celestial objects on grids in deep space, all tied into the exploration and escalation system


There are still a few massive problems that need to be ironed out of course.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.03.04 23:45:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: Infinity Ziona

Likewise, anyone that doesn't understand that transitions between nodes are possible without a 1990's style loading message should probably not post in this discussion either.



Speaking of people posting in this thread without knowing what the **** they are talking about, you have no clue about the underlying structure of eves server-side software.

You speak in an abstract fashion about loading screens being unnecessary, probably thinking about dungeon siege or some other similar game.

But you don't know CCP's software. You don't know their hardware. Really, you have no clue whether it is technically feasible to modify CCP's current eve-related assets to allow for seamless transition from one node to another.

So don't pretend otherwise, mmmkay?

Lol.

I speak about loading screens being unnecessary because I understand computers and software design.

You seem to think that there is a physical requirement for a ship leaving Rens to physically move through space, through other nodes, initiating session changes on the way. This is untrue regardless of how the server is coded.

A ship in EvE can travel from Rens to Jita in 1 second. All the server need do is transfer that ship to Jita. It requires 1 session change. The session change requirement is for data to be loaded after you begin to enter Jita which is the cutoff point for the warp so its not even relevant.

Since games programming is about illusions and perspective the only requirement is for a pretty graphic and a completely empty solar system, which would require almost no loading time if preloaded on hyperspace warmup after an intercept was made.

A ship could spend its entire time sitting at the exact same spot it left from, but removed (cloaked) and still give the illusion its travelling between the stars.

Colecionadora
Posted - 2011.03.05 02:41:00 - [55]
 

This idea is pretty perfect. Awesome!!
Maybe if a CCP guy come and tell us why not remove stargates...

Fire Chests
Posted - 2011.03.05 14:35:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
Edited by: Marchocias on 04/03/2011 22:10:32
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Val'Dore
Actually, it could very well increase the frequency and quality of pvp engagements if done correctly.

Please, illustrate?


Visit that other thread - there is definately some more detailed discussion on this kind of thing.

Essentially "done right" to me would mean:
  • leaving gates as they are,

  • re-allowing travel into deep space within systems,

  • introduce hyperdrives (only for non-capital ships) which are able to travel approximately 1/5 of the speed than equivalent journeys via stargates

  • have the drives require fuel,
  • making session change occur as your closest system changes,

  • and adding the ability to scan nearby moving hyperdrive signitures,

  • and adding the ability to plot an intercept course for the signiture, provided your ship is fast enough, with the proximity of the intercepting ship automatically "destabilising" the hyperdrive and dropping the target out of warp

  • have concord operate services at shorter ranges as security decreases in hisec, making deep space outside the radius effectively losec... some 1.0, 0.9 systems might have ranges which overlap, others will be islands, thus you might get caught by pirates between systems

  • new deep-space pve content, which also spawns new stars and celestial objects on grids in deep space, all tied into the exploration and escalation system


There are still a few massive problems that need to be ironed out of course.



- remove gates
- make possible jump within systems
- require fuel (race based) to jump within systems (jump drive conservation skill) fuel is used by the ship, dont need put it anywhere like on jumpbridges
- drive will be by default on each ship (dont need to be fitted, except capitals which need jump with the actual cyno system)
- fuel bay for all
- require capacitor to jump (jump drive operation skill)
- require ly range to jump (jump drive calibration skill)
- each ship will have its maximum jump range
- the jump between systems will not be like a warp, will be like a jump with wormhole effect like when capital jump / or jumpbridge effect... so session change as usual
- 30 seconds delay for cloaking before jump
- Jumping process (hole effect opening) it has a time (remembering that on actual gate system we need warp to gates on each system, so this time need be represented in this new feature) (this time to rejump can be skill based)
- when opening a new hole to jump, your hole is shown on overview for everyone in system can warp to it
Shocked




Marchocias
Posted - 2011.03.05 14:51:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Fire Chests

- remove gates
- make possible jump within systems
- require fuel (race based) to jump within systems (jump drive conservation skill) fuel is used by the ship, dont need put it anywhere like on jumpbridges
- drive will be by default on each ship (dont need to be fitted, except capitals which need jump with the actual cyno system)
- fuel bay for all
- require capacitor to jump (jump drive operation skill)
- require ly range to jump (jump drive calibration skill)
- each ship will have its maximum jump range
- the jump between systems will not be like a warp, will be like a jump with wormhole effect like when capital jump / or jumpbridge effect... so session change as usual
- 30 seconds delay for cloaking before jump
- Jumping process (hole effect opening) it has a time (remembering that on actual gate system we need warp to gates on each system, so this time need be represented in this new feature) (this time to rejump can be skill based)
- when opening a new hole to jump, your hole is shown on overview for everyone in system can warp to it
Shocked






Your idea:
  • Makes the whole game much smaller, as travel will be far quicker.

  • You end up with just "rooms", with no doors between them.

  • Why even bother with a distinction between capital ships and sub capital ships if they can all jump?

  • Its not tactical at all. Its just point to point jumping.

  • COMPLETELY changes the game.



With a hyperdrives AND gates system:
  • There are multiple different tactical approaches that can be used: the slow, relatively stealthy hyperdrive method, or the fast but obvious stargate method, or (if u have captials) the instant jump method.

  • It makes the game larger, by adding in the extra deep space which wasn't there before.

  • It makes the game less safe, as that extra space isn't necessarilly concord defended, you're very far from any kind of safe place to dock, and you can be intercepted miles from your friends if you're not careful.

  • Leaves the game the same, but adds more possibilities to it.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.03.05 18:01:00 - [58]
 

I like the keep the gates idea as it expands the game not short sights it.

One more factor I would love to add though not sure how possible it would be but being able to intercept and combat players in warp/hyperspace.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.03.05 18:47:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 05/03/2011 18:50:47
Originally by: Nova Fox
One more factor I would love to add though not sure how possible it would be but being able to intercept and combat players in warp/hyperspace.

Don't think so.. I mean, I'd like to see slower travel than we have now (to make trade and bulk transports more interesting and New Eden to feel bigger), but for this to work.. I mean, how long do you think it should take someone to intercept you once in 'jumpspace'?
How long does it take them to nail you down and reach you?
For this to work you'd have to be in 'jumpspace' for several minutes..
I'd say this feature dies right at the start block.
Concentrate on encounters and intercepts at the outgoing and/or incoming jumppoints..

Essentially the whole idea should allow us to break up the bottlenecks leading into other systems.. not one door/connection and a limited number of them, no.. border-less free space feeling with an unlimited number of connections/doors.
Then adapt the intel system so that the guys in low sec really have to work for those ganks (they should seek and find pvp by hunting and not by spawnpoint-camping). For the guys in null sec there should be sovereignty based intel that will give them the incoming jumppoints for anyone that is heading towards their space.. nice border patrol duties will be the result.. with people who try out the defence capability of those border patrols if they're sure that those hotdrops wont happen.

And leave the capitals home for that.. put them back to where they belong, onto the large and cruelsome battlefield for the fight over sovereignty and not as hotdrop mechanic to blob small gangs. So, those machines need to become slow, really really slow.

That's what needs to be done.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.03.05 19:09:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Nova Fox on 05/03/2011 19:13:23
I don't think this would get rid of the blobs from your idea on how it should be carried out from your point of view, this would require a world shaping objectionably that would involve a fresh approach on how to present something that ONLY small groups should do because what happens is that most things in eve are just simply done faster with more numbers. Removing jump gates would only mean they will commit when they are absolutely assured they do have what it takes to start trouble in the first place. What is to stop the ship that circumvented the gate from opening a cyno? jump portal? on top of a target that would almost require an effort of an entirely massive fleet to defend or destroy?

Then of course the fact they can no longer defend the gates will now result in larger packs/herds for protection so all the 'juicy' targets if they have any intelligence to them will be well withing capitol blobs range to respond. People who continue to play eve don't stay unintelligent long, they either adapt or die trying and most of 0.0 are those who are keen to adapting.



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