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Perseo Aidheron
Posted - 2011.03.02 12:05:00 - [1]
 

I was Told i could Run level 2 missions with a cruiser but i am starting to realize that i would be better of with a battlecruiser.
So after buying and equiping my Caracal with a fit from battleclinic for PvE missions i decide to find a Security or internal security agent that would give me cool action packed missions, so i find a security level 2 agent and start running mission with him, right of te start the first mission puts me against 5 destroyers and more than 5 cruisers i was able to take out the destroyers as my caracal had a range of 35km with missiles, now the other 5+ cruisers i couldnt take them all out i killed some of them and left 2 of them behind before quitting the mission due to the insane amount of time it took because of the sensor dampening that two of the cruisers where doing on me, add to this that they had more range than i did and were doing lots of armor tanking.

To make it short can you really run level2 missions with a cruiser or is it the cruiser a level 1 thing also

Another thing, are ambushes a very frequent thing in PvE missions, will i alwasy get surprised by other ships and find myself overwhelmed by pirates.
Cant remember this game being so difficult back in the days when i used to play with trial accounts only, suddenly im feeling bored of this endless pew pew missions and dont feel like continuing anymore :s

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.03.02 12:14:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 02/03/2011 12:14:45
Originally by: Perseo Aidheron
fit from battleclinic


Well, I found your first problem Cool

Cruisers are the ship class designed for doing L2 missions. If you're having trouble, you're either managing your triggers poorly, or using a bad fit (or both, as it seems to be in your case).

Use EVE-Survival to look up the mission and find out how to manage the aggro and suchlike so that you're not overwhelmed.

It's been a while since I flew a cruiser, but I'm sure someone else helpful will give you a good L2 PvE Caracal fit.

Perseo Aidheron
Posted - 2011.03.02 12:45:00 - [3]
 

so this fit aint good for level 2 missions

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/49772-Caracal-Mission-Runner.html

i am using the same fit just that instead of using that T2 i am using T1 as i dotn have the skills yet, also i was thinking in using heavy launchers instead of Assault missile launchers they have there.

And if Battleclinic aint good where do i go fot fits then??

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.03.02 12:46:00 - [4]
 

A starter fit should probably look something like this.

[Caracal, LVL 2 low sp]
Ballistic Control System I
Damage Control I

Large Shield Extender I
Large Shield Extender I
Heat Dissipation Field I
Ballistic Deflection Field I
Ballistic Deflection Field I

Assault Missile Launcher I, Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher I, Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher I, Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher I, Bloodclaw Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher I, Bloodclaw Light Missile



Hobgoblin I x2




Realise that a ship's performance goes up massively with the increase of skills, mostly support skills in fact. Stuff will just work better and you'll be able to fit more using better modules. Apart from that it's about understanding what to do, in this case you want to stay at range a bit.

Also, some missions are more difficult than others and require you to pay attention and READ the mission info. Recon, for instance, will tell you that you don't need to kill the rats to make use of the gate. What that actually means is that sticking around trying to kill the rats, instead of rushing to the gate and gtfo, will mostly end in you being a pod.



Jack Mayhem
Posted - 2011.03.02 13:30:00 - [5]
 

Some of the missions are *really* hard to do in cruiser. i.e. L2 Blockade.

Perseo Aidheron
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:05:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Perseo Aidheron on 02/03/2011 14:07:57
Edited by: Perseo Aidheron on 02/03/2011 14:06:50
i am unable to fit those large shield extenders they take 150 powergrid each 135 with skills, i am using medium shield extenders instead.
And should i really go around without an afterburner they help a lot in maintaining range, the caracal aint a fast ship

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:28:00 - [7]
 

Medium extenders don't help really, it's probably also why you're having trouble. extenders should always be oversized to be any good. My 2 day old 165k SP alt can use that fit I put in just fine (other than not being able to fly the ship itself) so I can't see how it wouldn't work for you. Make sure you use assault launchers, not HEAVY assault.

On the AB thing, yes it's very handy to have one and normally I would prefer it over more tank but in your case it seems as if you have issues tanking.

Matalino
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:51:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Perseo Aidheron
i am unable to fit those large shield extenders they take 150 powergrid each 135 with skills, i am using medium shield extenders instead.
As Cygnus already stated, Medium shield extenders will not cut it for this setup. They must be large extenders. You should not have many problems fitting the setup as it was posted. You only need Engineering level 1 to make the PG fit.
Originally by: Perseo Aidheron
And should i really go around without an afterburner they help a lot in maintaining range, the caracal aint a fast ship
Trying to fit an afterburner is likely why you cannot fit the large extenders. You will be fine without the afterburners. You will be slower but you will have no problem tanking. Drop the afterburn until your skills allow you to fit the dual large extenders.

Rorriana
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Perseo Aidheron
i am unable to fit those large shield extenders they take 150 powergrid each 135 with skills, i am using medium shield extenders instead.
And should i really go around without an afterburner they help a lot in maintaining range, the caracal aint a fast ship


Medium shield extenders do nothing for you, you really need large. Another rank or 2 of engineering will make them possible to fit, as long as you drop your afterburner.

With medium extenders you have effectively no tank at all. With larges you'll have a good tank.

You have the rigs that are on the fit correct? Medium Core Defense Field Purgers? If you dont you'll not have much in the way of defense, and you'll have to change your ballistic control units for shield power relays.



Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.03.02 16:20:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 02/03/2011 16:34:20
Originally by: Perseo Aidheron
so this fit aint good for level 2 missions

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/49772-Caracal-Mission-Runner.html

i am using the same fit just that instead of using that T2 i am using T1 as i dotn have the skills yet, also i was thinking in using heavy launchers instead of Assault missile launchers they have there.

And if Battleclinic aint good where do i go fot fits then??


Battleclininc is a good place to get basic ideas of what works for specific uses and that linked fit propably works just fine assuming you use hardeners specific to your area of missioning. Just take the BC fits for what they are, fits someone is using/thinking of using for the stated purpose, nothing more nothing less.

Personally I think the fit you used as a guide uses way too many module/rig slots for tanking which is a common problem with many mission fits. Lvl2 missions in general are really easy to do and you take almost no damage if you utilize range and speed to your advantage, so almost anything will work in them as long as you don't fit anything stupid on your ship(ex.: using medium extenders instead of large ones) and you understand the basics of EVE combat.

Also note that if you use heavy launchers you can't fit the other modules. That fit uses assault launchers for a good reason. They require half the powergrid heavy launchers do, use less CPU and are better at killing frigates, which is the most common enemy ship in lvl2 missions. Heavy launchers start to be a good idea on a drake in lvl3 missions where you mostly encounter cruisers and battlecruisers and have enough drones to easily kill all the frigates.

The advice given to you by others is sound, but I would advice you against giving up the speed module. It allows you to control range, which mitigates damage done to you and allows you to fly through missions which require traveling much faster. It's not vital on missions for a missile ship with a heavy tank though, so do what suits your playstyle the best.

Matalino
Posted - 2011.03.02 16:30:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
The advice given to you by others is sound, but I would advice you against giving up the speed module. It allows you to control range, which mitigates damage done to you and allows you to fly through missions which require traveling much faster. It's not vital on missions for a missile ship with a heavy tank though, so do what you suits your playstyle the best.
Fit the afterburner for added speed to get between acceleration gates faster. In practice, I doubt that an afterburner on an extender fitted Caracal will mitigate very much damage in a level 2 mission.

Given the choice between fitting medium extenders with an afterburner or large extenders without an afterburn, definately fit the large extenders. When you get your fitting skills up, you can drop one of the hardeners to fit an afterburner. It is only because you said that you did not have the PG to fit dual large extenders that I recommended that you drop the afterburner. You should also look at fitting dual ballistic controls if you find that your tank is strong enough without the damage control.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.03.02 17:06:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 02/03/2011 17:07:56
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
The advice given to you by others is sound, but I would advice you against giving up the speed module. It allows you to control range, which mitigates damage done to you and allows you to fly through missions which require traveling much faster. It's not vital on missions for a missile ship with a heavy tank though, so do what you suits your playstyle the best.
Fit the afterburner for added speed to get between acceleration gates faster. In practice, I doubt that an afterburner on an extender fitted Caracal will mitigate very much damage in a level 2 mission.

Given the choice between fitting medium extenders with an afterburner or large extenders without an afterburn, definately fit the large extenders. When you get your fitting skills up, you can drop one of the hardeners to fit an afterburner. It is only because you said that you did not have the PG to fit dual large extenders that I recommended that you drop the afterburner. You should also look at fitting dual ballistic controls if you find that your tank is strong enough without the damage control.


That's a false choice though. T1 version of that fit shouldn't cause problems even for a newb unless he is using heavy launchers instead of assault launchers and doesn't have the engineering skill trained even to lvl 2, which is a must for large extenders anyway. Just train a few levels of engineering and shield upgrades and he should be good to go. In a tough spot he could use a powergrid module in a low slot. It won't take more than a few hours from start to finish and is a must for the drake anyway.

He could always also active tank the ship. With the proper hardeners and a speed module the incoming damage is minimal anyway, so even a medium booster should be enough. Permatanking or passive tanking seems to be all the craze these days with mission runners, but neither is really necessary and is usually just a bad way to utilize your modules, dropping your efficiency in actually doing the missions, but gaining the ability to go AFK while doing them.

Wurzel Gummidge
Posted - 2011.03.02 17:07:00 - [13]
 

Battleclinic is full of fail fits and trolls. Try SHC instead.

Perseo Aidheron
Posted - 2011.03.02 17:12:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Perseo Aidheron on 02/03/2011 17:40:57
Thank you all for your help and advice, i am also going to train advanced weapon upgrades to reduce powergrid needs of all weapons.
thanks for the new site

that mission i mentined in my post, i was just suppose to use the acceleration gate not fight all those other cruisers at the same time :P

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.02 17:45:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 02/03/2011 22:10:23
Originally by: Perseo Aidheron
To make it short can you really run level2 missions with a cruiser or is it the cruiser a level 1 thing


About 2 years ago when I started playing this game, I ran lots of L1s in thrasher while training "learning" skills. I then started running L2s in a cruiser expecting it to be a total piece of cake. First cruiser I took into an L2 expereinced a RUD event that left me sitting in a pod wondering what just happened.

Then I figured out that bigger ship may have more hit points, but it is also easier for rats to hit you and missles do more damage when they hit you. So, I was forced to figure out things like matching my ammo type to the weakness of the rats, and matching my resists to the damage done by the rats... AND!!!! Drone skills to take out frigs my medium guns had a harder time hitting.

AND, I learned the missions and figured out which to accept because they paid well and were easy while decliing the ones that are hard with less pay.

A few weeks ago I started a new account just to see how the new player experience has changes. After a week I was blowing through L2 missions in a cruiser. At the end of the second weak I was making 8-10 million ISK an hour running L4s in a battle cruiser. By the end of week 3 I expect I'll be quickly finishing L4s in a battleship.

Sometimes, knowledge of game mechanics is far more important than skill points.


Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.03.02 19:25:00 - [16]
 



OK ... first lets get a few things clear ...

If you don't have Engineering/Engineering and Electronics/Electronics both trained to Level V - you have no business in a cruiser much less anything any bigger. You also want to have Engineering/Shield Upgrades trained to Level IV - this will cause each of your shield extenders to use less PG.


Next - yes - that was the Recon Mission Series - of which there are 3. That is one of the toughest sets of missions you will find - IF - you don't run it as required. Read the requirements for the mission. What that mission was doing - was punishing you for not reading the mission. It is intentionally hard - if you don't just complete the mission objectives. If you merely try to complete the mission objectives it is very easy. Just tank up your ship - or get in a really fast one - and blitz the mission.

Now - that said - if you want a good fight - it is also one of the best ... as it will give you a good fight. I personally prefer to fight that mission but I also tend to bring along some help to do it.


Every now and them the missions will dump you into a vat of **** - and you have to get yourself out of it. That's one of the reasons I always bring an AB. I don't have any trouble fitting LSE's though with that AB because my support skills are up to snuff.


Now, one other thing, in the fitting tool - you have the option to save your settings. What I do for my Caracals - is to make two fits and save them. One fit has the AML's and the other Heavy Missiles. If I go into a mission - I start with the AML's. Then if I kill all the frigates and have to deal with a lot of cruisers - I fly back to base - put on my Heavy Missile Fit - and come back and kill the cruisers. You can certainly kill cruisers with AML's but the Heavy Missile will kill them faster - and from a greater range if that's giving you problems.

Here - you want Electronics/Long Range Targeting, Missiles/Missile Bombardment and Missiles/Missile Projection trained as these will increase the range at which you can lock and hit targets.



In any case ... don't worry ... you're just walking down the same path most of us did. As noted above - player experience trumps skill books any day of the week - but the damn skill books are important too. Combine Player Experience with High Skills - and you're kicking mission rats ass. It just takes some time ...

.

Qwerty Isu
Posted - 2011.03.02 20:01:00 - [17]
 

Here is the fit that I used to raise my standings so I could do Lvl3/4 Missions;

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/6769-L2-Caracal-fast-standing.html

But as many have already mentioned, to be competent you have to train up your skills, and use eve-survival.com to know which resists to equip and what damage type missiles to bring along. In my hangar for my mission runner, I have 2 of each type of shield resist module and a large stack of each type of damage dealing missile, along with a stack of each type of damage dealing drone. But just be patient and train up your skills, you will get better in time.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:07:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

If you don't have Engineering/Engineering and Electronics/Electronics both trained to Level V - you have no business in a cruiser much less anything any bigger.



I find this assertion to be rediculus on its face.

Sure, maybe you shouldn't be undocking in low sec, or doing 1-v-1 cruiser combat. But for mission running... this is an absurd suggestion.

Rather than earning 1 million ISK an hour running L2s in a crusier, he should spend 6 days making 100K an hour running L1s in his thrasher while he trains engineering and electronics each to 5.... because attempting L2s in a cruiser 6 days earlier may result in him losing a 5 million ISK cruiser.

Time is money, and those 6 days of not undocking a cruiser is costing him a lot more money than the possibility of losing a cruiser by undocking it sooner.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.03.03 01:13:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

If you don't have Engineering/Engineering and Electronics/Electronics both trained to Level V - you have no business in a cruiser much less anything any bigger.



I find this assertion to be rediculus on its face.



Agreed. I didn't get Engineering V, Electronics V, or Weapon Upgrades V until I started doing L4's; never did me any harm. As long as you have them to a sufficient level to fit the ship you need to fly the missions well, then any more is a waste (for the time being, anyway).

Focus more on support skills; get yourself a T2 tank and T2 drones as fast as you can (but don't be afraid to run missions in the meanwhile; high meta modules can paper over the cracks well enough, but they're less than optimal).

Whiskeyjock
Posted - 2011.03.03 05:07:00 - [20]
 

i'm about a 8 day old eve character, this my first character ever and ive been doing nothing but missions.

I did the combat tutorial then done the advanced combat tutorial and that was all the tutorials i did, after that i picked a corporation (caldari navy) stuck to the best quality security agent i had at the time and ran missions for him, worked my way up to now a +14 quality lvl 2 agent and flying a caracal like yourself, personnaly i have had not one bit of trouble from the lvl 2 missions flying this ship( ops lies there was one mission called recon i think, but that was just stupidity from me i never read it right an tried to tackle the spawned ships, big mistake in a caracal lol)

Caracal is more than enough for lvl 2 in my opinion just takes abit of adjustment from facerolling lvl 1's is all m8.

Quote:
suddenly im feeling bored of this endless pew pew missions and dont feel like continuing anymore :s



This i understand being a new player myself the missions are very inadequate, there all just a case of rinse repeat rinse repeat, this must be the worst sandbox ive ever played for pve missions when it comes to complete boredom, its a case of here 10 missions once u done them here repeat them theres no thought or soul put into them there basically just crap threw together and pushed out.

Personnaly though i will stick with it for a few months get combat skills lvled up then try branch into other aspects of the game

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.03.03 10:57:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Whiskeyjock
this must be the worst sandbox ive ever played for pve missions when it comes to complete boredom, its a case of here 10 missions once u done them here repeat them theres no thought or soul put into them there basically just crap threw together and pushed out.

Personally though i will stick with it for a few months get combat skills lvled up then try branch into other aspects of the game


Yes, although different people like different things (I know players who truly enjoy the repeating PVE content) to me at least it's boring as hell. Here's the thing; you don't HAVE to do missions, there's tons of other ways to make cash, even for newbies. It all depends on your personal ideas on what's fun, perhaps you like production/crafting, or you like the idea of hauling goods (there's also a "moonshine" hauling equivalent in EVE), perhaps you want a more "devious" role; ninja salvaging and can flipping are good for starters, can make some decent cash with it.

Me personally, I never bothered with isk, never made it a goal. This game isn't about "ooh, once I reach <insert isk/SP amount> THEN I'll have fun!". I found ways to make cash with the least amount of effort or rather made it by blowing people up for loot or ransom them.

Best thing to do is to join an ACTIVE, proper corp asap. There's nothing worse than staying solo or joining some stupid silly 7 man corp where no one logs on, because that's a great way to shield yourself from info, experience and finding your own niche.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:51:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 03/03/2011 14:12:40


Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

If you don't have Engineering/Engineering and Electronics/Electronics both trained to Level V - you have no business in a cruiser much less anything any bigger.



I find this assertion to be rediculus on its face.



Agreed. I didn't get Engineering V, Electronics V, or Weapon Upgrades V until I started doing L4's; never did me any harm. As long as you have them to a sufficient level to fit the ship you need to fly the missions well, then any more is a waste (for the time being, anyway).

Focus more on support skills; get yourself a T2 tank and T2 drones as fast as you can (but don't be afraid to run missions in the meanwhile; high meta modules can paper over the cracks well enough, but they're less than optimal).



It's advice like that that gets new players blown up in ships they can't fit. Just because you two rushed ahead and got away with it doesn't mean they will.

Those two skills are your PG & CPU - NOTHING - is more important than that. Those are the first two skills you should top out.

Being impatient and rushing into bigger ships before you're ready to fly them - is what gets people blown up. If you've got a lot of money - then fine - you can afford to get blown up. If you just spent everything you had on a ship - which you should not have done - and take it out and get it blown up because you couldn't fit it - then it's another matter.

If you can play A LOT then you can afford more - but not everyone can play enough hours per day to have a lot of money floating about. You've got a lot of new people who can't play more than an hour our two a day - but those skills train in real time - so you're NOT sacrificing this horrendous amount of money to train them before flying a hollow ship.

If you're here on the forums complaining about not being able to mount the recommended fits - then you need to improve your PG & CPU.

Tarawa - you should know better. What makes you think someone is just going to lose the one ship if they can't fit it right? And those money figures - that's just a bunch of crap. No new person running Level II's is making a Million an hour - but you will make more than 100k running level I's. What the hell has happened to you? You used to be smarter than that.

Oh ... and Geldon, recommending having a T2 tank ... without enough PG/CPU to mount it ... yeah ... brilliant ...


You two have obviously forgotten what it's like to be a new player that has no idea what they're doing.

.

Matalino
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:16:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Matalino on 03/03/2011 15:24:10
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

If you don't have Engineering/Engineering and Electronics/Electronics both trained to Level V - you have no business in a cruiser much less anything any bigger.



I find this assertion to be rediculus on its face.



Agreed. I didn't get Engineering V, Electronics V, or Weapon Upgrades V until I started doing L4's; never did me any harm. As long as you have them to a sufficient level to fit the ship you need to fly the missions well, then any more is a waste (for the time being, anyway).

Focus more on support skills; get yourself a T2 tank and T2 drones as fast as you can (but don't be afraid to run missions in the meanwhile; high meta modules can paper over the cracks well enough, but they're less than optimal).
It's advice like that that gets new players blown up in ships they can't fit. Just because you two rushed ahead and got away with it doesn't mean they will.

Those two skills are your PG & CPU - NOTHING - is more important than that. Those are the first two skills you should top out.
Don't be rediculous. There are plenty of perfectly acceptable setups for Battlecruisers and Battleships that fit just fine with Engineering IV and Electronics IV. Not every setup needs to push fittings to the max. If you don't need extra PG or CPU to get your setup to fit, then there is no pressing need to train Engineering V or Electronics V. Of course it is good to train those skills sooner rather than later, but new players should not train them because the mighty Toshiro Greyhawk has declared law forbidding noods from using larger ships until those skills have been trained.

Also it is Tech 2 weapons, rather than Tech 2 tank that tends to push fitting limites on Battlecruisers and Battleships. Therefore, the advice to focus on training for Tech 2 tank before maxing fitting skills is reasonable.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:51:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Matalino
Don't be rediculous. There are plenty of perfectly acceptable setups for Battlecruisers and Battleships that fit just fine with Engineering IV and Electronics IV. Not every setup needs to push fittings to the max. If you don't need extra PG or CPU to get your setup to fit, then there is no pressing need to train Engineering V or Electronics V. Of course it is good to train those skills sooner rather than later, but new players should not train them because the mighty Toshiro Greyhawk has declared law forbidding noods from using larger ships until those skills have been trained.

Also it is Tech 2 weapons, rather than Tech 2 tank that tends to push fitting limites on Battlecruisers and Battleships. Therefore, the advice to focus on training for Tech 2 tank before maxing fitting skills is reasonable.


Better fitting skills after a certain point are useful mainly for saving your wallet from buying complex/faction stuff instead of T2; which you cannot fit because of that lacking skill lvl.
Also what people miss about lvl 4's is that you can do any of them without fitting skills or even with out a BS and large guns but I can tell you that it takes very long time for example 5x T2 medium drones to chew on a single BS in a lvl 4 mission (about 5-8mins with my maxed out drone skills and gal BS V) and you can't even kill a 1,2mil bounty BS with just medium drones.

So yes you can fly a ship without proper support skills but like we veterans use to say "you just get an expensive coffin for your ISK".
Other thing is ofc. that with better skills your mission completion times get shorter as you get more skills and better fittings it used to take me 4 hours to do a lvl 4 blockade now I can do it in an hour.

btw. engineering V or any other lvl 1 skill that you have remapped (int/mem) for only takes 3+ days to train so wasting time doesn't really hit the bill here as it is you could train both electronics V and engineering V in under a week.

Matalino
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:13:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Matalino on 03/03/2011 16:44:26
Originally by: Baneken
Better fitting skills after a certain point are useful mainly for saving your wallet from buying complex/faction stuff instead of T2; which you cannot fit because of that lacking skill lvl.
You don't need to use expensive complex/faction stuff instead of T2. Simply using Meta 1 or 2 weapons instead of Tech 2 weapons will allow many standard setups to fit with Engineering Iv and Electronics IV. You lose some damage output, but not an unreasonable amount. Further, the cost of losing the ship goes down.

The risk of losing the ship is based more on player skill than character skill. Waiting until you fit a Tech 1 ship with all Tech 2 gear before getting some experience flying it is bad advice. Flying a Battlecruiser or Battleship with lower cost Meta 1-3 gear to learn how it handles, and then improving performance as your fitting, support and weapon skills improve is a more sound approach.

You certainly do NOT need Engineering V nor Electronics V to get a reasonable PvE setup to fit on a Battlecruiser or Battleship. Obviously, comprimises would need to be made, but a first experience flying a Battlecruiser or Battleship does not require optimal performance.

As an example, I challenge you to produce a reasonable all Tech 2 Cruise Missile setup for a Raven that requires Engineering V. You simply do not need it! You don't even need Engineering at all to get a Cruise Missile setup to fit on a Raven, you only needed Engineering as a pre-requ for other skills.

As another challenge, try to produce any reasonable max skill Tech 2 setup for any Battleship or Battlecruiser, that cannot be made to fit with Engineering IV and Electronics IV by swapping Tech 2 components for Meta 1-3.

Unless the player has a specific plan, Engineering and Electronics are the first two skills that I would recommend that new players train to level 5. However, there are no level 5 skills that are required to pilot a Battlecruiser or Battleship reasonably well. It is easy to get acceptable performance with only level 4 skills. If the players intention is to fly a Battlecuiser or Battleship for PVE, often Engineering and Eletronics 5 are not the most effective skills to train to level 5. It is only as general advice that those skills are recommended before others.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:59:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
It's advice like that that gets new players blown up in ships they can't fit. Just because you two rushed ahead and got away with it doesn't mean they will.


I think you completely miss the point....

SO WHAT if they get blown up? By a cruiser, fit it with like meta 0 to 2 items depending on the price, buy platimum insurance, and go run some Level 2 mission.

If you get blown up, you are out MAYBE 1 million ISK. That is NO big deal.

Running L1s in a frig or desi instead of running L2s in a cruiser is costing you something like 1 million ISK an hour in oppertunity cost.

IMO, it is far better to go run L2s in a less well fit ship, then to wait a week to get electronics and engineering to 5 before even considering it.

Again, this is for PVE, not 1v1 PVP....

First skill I maxed was drones to 5. IMO, getting the 5th drone and unlocking drone interfacing was FAR, FAR more important for running L2s than being able to swap out a power diag for a 3rd gyro in my Rupi.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:40:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 03/03/2011 18:45:29
Ha! Ha!

Matalino!

You mean you're not impressed by the power and majesty of my posts? Ha! Ha!

OK ... look ... possibly I could have phrased that differently ... most of you seem to think that getting Engineering and Electronics to Level V is "a good idea" and I can certainly accept that rather than stating it as a requirement. But - I was trying to make a point and emphasized it the way I did to make that point - which was that you shouldn't fly hollow ships - as so many new people do.

However ... my point about new players stands. They are constantly getting themselves into bigger ships than they are ready for. It's the easiest thing in the world to just train Battle Cruisers and get yourself into a ship that you're just going to go out and lose.

AS I SAID - if you've got a lot of money (from playing the game A LOT) then if you want to go out and lose ships - that's your call - BUT - if you don't have a lot of money (cause you don't play much) then it's a lot harder to absorb those loses.

It isn't JUST Engineering and Electronics people don't train - they don't train the cap skills or their Nav skills (which are cap skills BTW) or their Mechanic skills either.

They go off and they've got crappy basic shields, crappy basic armor, crappy basic structure, crappy cap, crappy speed - and - their PG sucks and so does their CPU - but they're in a cruiser! Rolling Eyes


NOW - think about this - how many new people get upset when they lose a ship?

Yes - I know - it's just an expendable piece of equipment to veterans - but for new people - especially those who don't play A LOT and don't have a lot of money - it's NOT just an expendable piece of equipment.

You see that all the time - they come here and it's "I'm all upset that I lost my ship - I'm ready to quit this game" ... or what ever. How many times have you seen someone begging in local because they put all their money into some ship they couldn't afford - and went out and lost it on a mission - they shouldn't have lost it on - but DID because they were flying a hollow ship.

How many quit the game because they did that? None of us know - but - do any of you think there aren't people out there quitting like that? I'm sure it's taking them more than one ship but ... if they haven't a clue what they're doing ... they've probably lost multiple ships.

I mean - how many people playing the game EVER even make it to the forums? The ones that are smart enough to make it here are the cream of the crop.


As a veteran - yeah - you know that your ship is expendable and making that calculation that "what the hell ... I lost it but I made more ISK using it than it cost" isn't a reach - but how many new people - especially when they've bought a ship they COULD NOT afford to lose are going to have that attitude?

Yeah - they need to learn to lose their ships - but it would be better - if they learned that with smaller ships they could afford - that were at least properly fit.

And come on you guys - **** - training a rank 1 skill (or two) to level V - isn't that big a deal. Are they just going to play two weeks?

You act like I'm depriving these new people of their mothers milk telling them to GET SOMETHING DONE - that will benefit them for the rest of their EVE career.

And - what's this crap about "you don't need it to level V until you're running Level IV missions"? Horse manure. I had frigate fits I couldn't do until I had that at Level V. How many times have you tried to get one more gun or a slightly bigger piece of armor on your ship - and couldn't because you were just a few points of PG or CPU short? Hunh? How often has that happened?

You can get the best fit you are able if you've got the most PG and CPU you're able. No - you don't HAVE to do it - but you're screwing yourself out of the best ship you COULD fit if you don't.

Flying the best fit you can - saves time - and saves ships if you get in trouble.


It's your call ...

*shrug*


Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.03.03 19:14:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
It's advice like that that gets new players blown up in ships they can't fit. Just because you two rushed ahead and got away with it doesn't mean they will.


I think you completely miss the point....

SO WHAT if they get blown up? By a cruiser, fit it with like meta 0 to 2 items depending on the price, buy platimum insurance, and go run some Level 2 mission.

If you get blown up, you are out MAYBE 1 million ISK. That is NO big deal.

Running L1s in a frig or desi instead of running L2s in a cruiser is costing you something like 1 million ISK an hour in oppertunity cost.

IMO, it is far better to go run L2s in a less well fit ship, then to wait a week to get electronics and engineering to 5 before even considering it.

Again, this is for PVE, not 1v1 PVP....

First skill I maxed was drones to 5. IMO, getting the 5th drone and unlocking drone interfacing was FAR, FAR more important for running L2s than being able to swap out a power diag for a 3rd gyro in my Rupi.



Here's the point:

1) They are NOT making a million ISK an hour. That is just bull ****. Maybe YOU can make a Million ISK an hour now - but brand new people in brand new ships they don't know how to fly - ARE NOT MAKING A MILLION ISK AN HOUR.

2) Many of them don't play enough to make losing ONE cruiser something they can just shrug off - MUCH LESS SEVERAL - and - because they've got crappy fits and don't have a clue what they're doing - they AREN'T just losing one ship - they ARE losing several.

3) If they get that cruiser blown up in the first few missions - and we've seen exactly that - then they are NOT making ANY money with it as they've already lost it.

4) Just because someone CAN get into a cruiser in a few days doesn't mean they SHOULD. (Making an exception here for mining cruisers). They might well benefit from a few more days in destroyers learning how to fly their ships.

5) As to training Drones V before your PG/CPU skills - what ships are you flying? Caldari? Minmatar? Are THEY going to benefit more from Drones V and Drone Interfacing than having more PG & CPU? I think not.


Once again - just because YOU did it this way - doesn't mean EVERYONE should do it that way.

Maybe YOU - played the game enough hours a week when you first started playing that losing a few 5 million dollar ships wasn't that big a deal.

I get this argument every ****ing time I try to tell new people NOT to do what they want oh so badly to do - which is get into a big ship as fast as they ****ing can.

Someone who did just that - and lost ships but didn't care - pops up and give me a bunch of crap about it.

Not every new person has the same attitude that YOU did when they start. Just because YOU got away with it - doesn't mean they will.

As I said above - it isn't JUST PG/CPU that they skimp on - but - once again - I don't post a thousand words on something ... and someone gets all outraged about me making something "a requirement".

No ... it's not a ****ing requirement - it's just a good idea.

New people have ENOUGH of an inclination to get into big ships faster than they should. They need to be warned against that. But - here we are again - with a bunch of guys popping up "I didn't do that. You don't have to!" encouraging new people to go out and fly hollow ships that they can't afford to lose - because they aren't making THAT much money.


Look - trust me - the impatient ones - like you - who don't want to wait - aren't going to. If I say train to V - they'll train to III and figure that's good enough ...

But - the ones who come here all mystified and can't support the fits they're being given - for them - having their PG/CPU fully trained - is a good idea.

No - it isn't a requirement. I can't make anyone do anything. But I can warn them about how to avoid losing their ships. If they don't care about losing their ships - they aren't going to listen to me anyway.

.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.03.03 20:29:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Here's the point:

1) They are NOT making a million ISK an hour. That is just bull ****. Maybe YOU can make a Million ISK an hour now - but brand new people in brand new ships they don't know how to fly - ARE NOT MAKING A MILLION ISK AN HOUR.



The military tutorial and the advanced tutorial each pay about 1 million ISK and can be done in about an hour. You can do these missions upto 12 times each. The Sisters of Eve Epic Arc pays better than 15 million for the 50 parts and can be completed in a couple 8-hour days of playing.

By the time you complete that, you can be on day 3 or 4 and ready to fly a cruiser. I fit a rupture with some shield hardener rigs, shield booster, cap recharger, ab, and a bunch of trackign enhancers and gyros in those lows. Sure, I had to give up a low to a power diag. Big deal... So I lose a tiny bit of DPS that a 3rd gyro could add... With the power diag and engineering only at the starting 3, there is plenty of pg to fit 6 650s and a couple standard launchers. Actually, not to hard to make 1 million ISK an hour running L2s or 2-3 million an hour running L3s.


Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

2) Many of them don't play enough to make losing ONE cruiser something they can just shrug off - MUCH LESS SEVERAL - and - because they've got crappy fits and don't have a clue what they're doing - they AREN'T just losing one ship - they ARE losing several.



"Don't fly it if you can't afford to lose it.", is TOTALLY different from "Don't fly it until you've spend the better part of a week on just 2 skills to L5."

"Don't fly it as a newb unless you have platinum insurance on it."

"Don't pimp it with meta 4 unless you have skills to not lose it."

"Don't put all your chickens in one basket."

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

4) Just because someone CAN get into a cruiser in a few days doesn't mean they SHOULD.



And just because they haven't spent a week on getting engineering and electronics to 5 doesn't mean they shouldn't.

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

5) As to training Drones V before your PG/CPU skills - what ships are you flying? Caldari? Minmatar? Are THEY going to benefit more from Drones V and Drone Interfacing than having more PG & CPU? I think not.



A rupture with drones 5, engineering 3 and electornics 3 is a FAR more powerful ship for PVE than with drones 3, engineering 5 and electronics 5.


Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

I get this argument every [cut] time I try to tell new people NOT to do what they want oh so badly to do - which is get into a big ship as fast as they [cut] can.

Someone who did just that - and lost ships but didn't care - pops up and give me a bunch of crap about it.


If you want to stop getting crap about it, then stop acting like your opinion is an absolute. Heck, not only is your opinion of "don't undock a cruiser until you have engineering and electronics to 5" not only not an absolute, I personally don't think it is really all that good of advice.

Sure, those are nice skills and should be a fairly high priority... but higher priority than getting in a BS so you can be running L4s at the end of week 3 for 10 million an hour?

I suppose you are going to tell me that is not possible also. Heck, at the end of week 2 my new toon was running L4s in a 'cane and was making close to 10 million an hour. 3 more days to large guns and Maelstrom.

So forget your advice about engineering 5 and electronics 5, and instead tell them to make sure they understand resists and damage types and explosion radius/sig radius and tracking speed/radial velocity, and to not undock a cruiser until they have decent drone skills....

Give some good advice instead of bad advice, and maybe you wouldn't get so much crap.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.03.04 02:13:00 - [30]
 


Oh Bull****.

Look dude - it's like this - you are advising new people who know nothing about the game to get into big ships as fast at they can.

That is stupid.

As I tried to point out - YOU are a veteran and thus YOU can get away with all the crap you mentioned above. A new person would be a FOOL to do that.

And your time line on completing those missions - for a new person - is absurd. A new person not only CAN NOT do things that fast - THEY SHOULDN'T. They need to learn how to fly their ships. They need to learn how to run missions. It would be helpful if they had some smattering of tactics under their belt.

Maybe YOU have run those missions 12 times each and can get them done in an hour - but a new person would be a FOOL to do that.


YOU are advising NEW PEOPLE to act like Veterans. That is the WORST advice they could possibly be given.


Lets be clear about this - we are NOT talking about New Characters. If a Veteran Player wants to do what you describe - what the hell - THEY know what they are doing.

A NEW PLAYER has no business doing ANYTHING at the speed YOU are talking about.


This is the New Citizens Forum - for people who don't already know how to play the game - and you're coming in here telling them to do things a Veteran can do.

Experience Trumps Skill Books Any Day Of The Week.

Why the damn hell can't you get it through your thick head that what you are telling a NEW PLAYER to do - is a BAD IDEA?

Have you completely forgotten what it was like?

I'm not here trying to advise new people on the fastest way to get into big ships - which is just what they want to do. I'm here trying to tell them that they are mostly wasting their time and money if they try to act like a veteran player when they aren't one.

That is good advice.


Did it ever occur to you that EVE has a steep learning curve - (and I'm not talking about skill books)?

The extra time they spend learning how to play the game while they get a solid foundation of support skills - is time well spent. Then - when they are ready - they can go out and run missions and NOT lose all those ships - which the AVERAGE New Player is NOT ready to do.


But - there are always people who think that if you don't rush into things as fast as you can (and computer games are just chock full of them) that you're stupid. Well - it's the other way around.


Removing the learning skills was one of the worst things CCP did to it's player base. Yes - the players loved it - it set them free to go be stupid. During the time they spent on those learning skills - what they were really gaining - was NOT just the skills and increased training speed - but time spent in small ships where their mistakes didn't matter.


Now - once again - for the N'th time - your money figures are BULL ****. NO NEW PLAYER IS GOING TO COME CLOSE TO THAT. You do understand the concept of BULL **** don't you? NO NEW PLAYER IS GOING TO MAKE THAT KIND OF MONEY IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME.


OK ... I just realized something ... either you are monumentally stupid - which I had not thought - or you're trolling me ... so ... maybe I'm wasting my time here.

But I will make this point one last time since it is the crux of everything *I* am talking about and something you persistently ignore.

New People are not Veteran Players. Don't tell New People to do things Veteran Players can get away with - they won't.



.


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