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Solstice Project
Posted - 2011.03.02 22:04:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Solstice Project on 02/03/2011 22:46:49
---
this can only be described as an exploit,as it uses the internal mechanics of the flagging system to gain an undetectable advantage.
---


No. It's game mechanic. CONCORD Law.


You drop a can.
I take from it.

I'm red to you.

There's no need to get a notice,
because i know i'm the thief.

The Fact, that i didn't know better is my own fault.


Works the other way too !



...




noobs. lol

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.03.02 22:14:00 - [62]
 

Tippia, the problem is that it simply isn't consistent. Getting aggro should trigger a warning flag. It's done in other means, like the "repping wartarget" example the OP gave.

You can argue glitch/exploit terminology, but that's a non-issue for both sides. Mechanics should be consistent in UI terms, and this one isn't. It's also being used to score easy kills, and given the raw chaos of an incursion environment, it's a bit hard to expect everyone to be able to monitor a person to see if they can flip or not.

I was reminded of the whole "shoot their can to extend aggression, and it not showing up on the aggressed player's screen issue" when reading this.

Katdoral
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:06:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Katdoral on 02/03/2011 23:26:58
http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=34
The above is from this very website, which CCP Maintains.

An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM as soon as possible so that they can investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss: While in the game, select the "Help" function from your NeoCom. Press the "Petitions" button, then "New Petitions". Select the "exploit" category and press "Ok", then write as detailed a description as you can, including if possible the exact circumstances under which the cheat or exploit can be reproduced, and whether you know of any players who have been taking advantage of it.

Now, before the comments start flying, utilizing a bug is not the SOLE carrier for an exploit. And it's doubtfull that CCP intended incursions to be privateering launchpads for griefers. And sure, even with CCP's definitions above, the point is not what term we use, but to maintain system continuity. In every other instance of initiating criminal actions, a player is given a warning. This overlooked mechanic does not fit within the mold. If any of the griefers here can offer any other instances where criminal actions are not preceeded by a warning, perhaps I'd be listiening. But as you can not, I can only conclude that your goal has nothing to do with mechanics, and everything to do with an attempt to preserve a flaw that is solely beneficial to yourselves.

Gavascon
Posted - 2011.03.03 00:38:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Gavascon on 03/03/2011 00:38:18
fact: if a fleet member loots a wreck or steals a can he will NOT turn flashy red to any of his fleetmates.

he will recive a warning from ccp referencing crminal activity.

a logistics pilot now provides reps to the "flashy red" fleetmate (who isn't red to the logi pilot). now the logi pilot is flashy red to all the members of the corp who's wreck/can has been stolen from. but THE LOGI PILOT HAS NOT BEEN WARNED HE IS ABOUT TO REP SOMEONE WHO IS FLAGGED.

logi pilot now warps to a gate/station/planet - he's aggressed by people who now have the right to do so.

i'd say that is a set up

if this were NOT an incursion - then most fleets would contain 100% corpmates/alliancemates and no one would care about looting.

but since incursions are designed for people from all corps/alliances to band together to fight a common enemy this mechanic has surfaced as a problem.

this needs to be dealt with in the same maaner as was ending concord intervention when people received reps and then popped GCC to have logistics concorded.

Gavascon
Posted - 2011.03.03 00:57:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Gavascon on 03/03/2011 01:03:43
Edited by: Gavascon on 03/03/2011 00:59:26
put another way:

my fleetmate steals from amarr battleship wreck belonging to person B from Corp B not in our fleet (the wreck was there when we arrived)
he gets a warning.

my fleetmate isn't red to me because he didn't steal FROM ME or any of my corpmates. my fleetmate needs reps. i provide them.

I AM NOT WARNED HE HAS BEED FLAGGED!.

in local - person B sees a few "pink skulls" next to some names (as do all the members of Corp B). happens to be my fleetmate, myself and the entire logistics cap chain.

corp b agresses. they have that right.
my fleet cannot engage - as Corp B isnn't red to them. if they do engage they get concorded. so - my fleetmate gets popped as does an entire (essentially defensless) logistics squad.

how to stop this? one can only tell fleetmates NOT to steal. but there is NO GUARANTEE people will listen.

the simple, logical solution is to protect the logistics with a simple pop up warning. agree? go flashy red and get what you deserve. decline? then my flettmate gets popped by sansha.

Lorael Simatari
Posted - 2011.03.03 01:27:00 - [66]
 

The griefers cannot deny that they get a kick out of this "smart use of game mechanics, their only argument is that people should lose their ships because of one concept, ignorance. Education is key here, we know that there is an issue and we know a solution. stop stealing from cans from outside you control, otherwise your going to get some corp m8 losing his 800mill ship to some fool who spends his entire game time planning these situations that they get thier prized "tears". people get smart, take these kills away from these fools and show them that game mechanics work both ways.

DONT STEAL FROM THIRD PARTY CANS - its friken simple.

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.03.03 02:01:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Desert Ice78 on 03/03/2011 03:05:06
Originally by: Lorael Simatari
The griefers cannot deny that they get a kick out of this "smart use of game mechanics, their only argument is that people should lose their ships because of one concept, ignorance. Education is key here, we know that there is an issue and we know a solution. stop stealing from cans from outside you control, otherwise your going to get some corp m8 losing his 800mill ship to some fool who spends his entire game time planning these situations that they get thier prized "tears". people get smart, take these kills away from these fools and show them that game mechanics work both ways.

DONT STEAL FROM THIRD PARTY CANS - its friken simple.


Your correct Lorael, except that what the epic thread troll Tippia and the rest of the would-be "elite pvpers" griefers are doing is:-


1.) Tippia puts a.) an in-corp alt and b.) an out-of-corp alt into an Incursion fleet, while his main and all of his "elite pvpers" buddies sit outside the system at the gate.

2.) Tippia's in-corp alt in the midst of the action drops from the fleet and drops a can, and has his out-of-corp alt quietly steal from it, thereby becoming red flagged to Tippia and his “elite pvper” corp mates.

3.) Tippia's out-of-corp alt then screams for reps/cap etc. from all the logistic pilots knowing full well that they have no way of knowing that the out-of-corp alt is red flagged to the troll Pippia, and that, if they then do what they are bloody well meant to be doing as logistics pilots, i.e. rep any and all fleet mates as soon as possible when called for, then they will unknowingly inherit the red-flag.

4.) In the space of less than 10 seconds, the fleets entire composition of logistic pilots unknowingly inherit the red-flag from each other, thereby becoming valid targets for Tippia and his “elite pvper” buddies.

5.) Finally, Tippia's alt's warp out of Incursion, and Tippia and his gang jump into system, warps into the incursion and kills all of the red flagged logistic pilots.

If done correctly, the whole process will take less than 20 seconds, the fleet running the Incursion loses everything, and the troll Tippia and his buddies chorkle to themselves in local about how they had to battle through the odds that were clearly stacked against them in order to kill some logistic pilots and become these mighty pvpers....as everyone who knows Eve game mechanics, knows about the legionary alpha strike of the Basilisk.

Edit: I just realised. This is exactly what was happening when Incursions first came out, which forced CCP to decide that unknowingly repping a GCC flagged person was a broken game mechanic and an exploit. That really just sums it all up, doesn't it.

Trolls, do your worst...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.03 02:31:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Katdoral
http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=34
The above is from this very website, which CCP Maintains.

An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.
So…

Bypasses normal game mechanics — no. So not an exploit.
Utilizing a bug in the game — no. So not an exploit.
Allowing [somone] to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever — no. So not an exploit.
Quote:
And sure, even with CCP's definitions above, the point is not what term we use,
It matters quite a lot: do you want a bugfix or a change to existing mechanics?

In this case, people want a change to existing mechanics, but they claim that they want a bugfix. They insinuate that they've been the victims of a cheat, rather than of their own ignorance of rules and mechanics.
Quote:
In every other instance of initiating criminal actions, a player is given a warning.
No. In most instances, criminal acts come with a warning. In almost no acts do aggression transfer come with a warning.
Originally by: Gavascon
fact: if a fleet member loots a wreck or steals a can he will NOT turn flashy red to any of his fleetmates.
Of course not. If the wreck belongs to someone in the fleet, looting it is not a criminal act. If it does not belong to anyone in the fleet, then it is, but not in relation to anyone in the fleet, so no-one there gets any aggression right.
Quote:
he will recive a warning from ccp referencing crminal activity.
Depends who owns the wreck.
Quote:
i'd say that is a set up
Depends who the looter is, whom he stole from, and why.
Quote:
how to stop this? one can only tell fleetmates NOT to steal. but there is NO GUARANTEE people will listen.
How indeed…
Quote:
if this were NOT an incursion - then most fleets would contain 100% corpmates/alliancemates and no one would care about looting.
…sounds like you're closing in on a solution to the perceived problem here. So, to reiterate what was said above: preventable — not an exploit.
Originally by: Desert Ice78
Your correct Lorael, except that what the epic thread troll Tippia and the rest of the would-be "elite pvpers" griefers are doing is:-
Again: correcting people when they misuse of the terms "exploit" or "glitch" to explain completely normal, intended and expected behaviour is not trolling, As for "elite pvper"… ehm… yeah. Go sift through some KBs and get back to me on that one. Laughing
Quote:
Edit: I just realised. This is exactly what was happening when Incursions first came out, which forced CCP to decide that unknowingly repping a GCC flagged person was a broken game mechanic and an exploit. That really just sums it all up, doesn't it.
No, not exactly. What was happening there was that people carelessly sentenced themselves to death without any recourse or escape. Here, they don't — they just give some people 15 minutes worth of aggression rights.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2011.03.03 03:24:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/03/2011 03:24:24
"Anyone who disagrees with me must have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are because they are directly gaining from it."

Accusing Tippia of using an alt to abuse these mechanics simply because she is pointing out your fail logic makes you a moron. Tippia you should really stop giving these idiots the time of day.

De Guantanamo
Posted - 2011.03.03 03:28:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78


Your correct Lorael, except that what the epic thread troll Tippia and the rest of the would-be "elite pvpers" griefers are doing is:-


1.) Tippia puts a.) an in-corp alt and b.) an out-of-corp alt into an Incursion fleet, while his main and all of his "elite pvpers" buddies sit outside the system at the gate.

2.) Tippia's in-corp alt in the midst of the action drops from the fleet and drops a can, and has his out-of-corp alt quietly steal from it, thereby becoming red flagged to Tippia and his “elite pvper” corp mates.

3.) Tippia's out-of-corp alt then screams for reps/cap etc. from all the logistic pilots knowing full well that they have no way of knowing that the out-of-corp alt is red flagged to the troll Pippia, and that, if they then do what they are bloody well meant to be doing as logistics pilots, i.e. rep any and all fleet mates as soon as possible when called for, then they will unknowingly inherit the red-flag.

4.) In the space of less than 10 seconds, the fleets entire composition of logistic pilots unknowingly inherit the red-flag from each other, thereby becoming valid targets for Tippia and his “elite pvper” buddies.

5.) Finally, Tippia's alt's warp out of Incursion, and Tippia and his gang jump into system, warps into the incursion and kills all of the red flagged logistic pilots.

If done correctly, the whole process will take less than 20 seconds, the fleet running the Incursion loses everything, and the troll Tippia and his buddies chorkle to themselves in local about how they had to battle through the odds that were clearly stacked against them in order to kill some logistic pilots and become these mighty pvpers....as everyone who knows Eve game mechanics, knows about the legionary alpha strike of the Basilisk.

Edit: I just realised. This is exactly what was happening when Incursions first came out, which forced CCP to decide that unknowingly repping a GCC flagged person was a broken game mechanic and an exploit. That really just sums it all up, doesn't it.

Trolls, do your worst...



You are literally ******ed.

Like xxxak ******ed (look him up for reference if you are confused).

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.03.03 03:32:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: XXSketchxx
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/03/2011 03:24:24
"Anyone who disagrees with me must have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are because they are directly gaining from it."

Accusing Tippia of using an alt to abuse these mechanics simply because she is pointing out your fail logic makes you a moron. Tippia you should really stop giving these idiots the time of day.


Another troll in need of a bridge.....

Please explain to me my "fail logic."

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2011.03.03 03:39:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/03/2011 03:24:24
"Anyone who disagrees with me must have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are because they are directly gaining from it."

Accusing Tippia of using an alt to abuse these mechanics simply because she is pointing out your fail logic makes you a moron. Tippia you should really stop giving these idiots the time of day.


Another troll in need of a bridge.....

Please explain to me my "fail logic."


"Anyone that disagrees with me is a troll"

Just keep posting bro.

Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.03.03 03:42:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Desert Ice78
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/03/2011 03:24:24
"Anyone who disagrees with me must have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are because they are directly gaining from it."

Accusing Tippia of using an alt to abuse these mechanics simply because she is pointing out your fail logic makes you a moron. Tippia you should really stop giving these idiots the time of day.


Another troll in need of a bridge.....

Please explain to me my "fail logic."


"Anyone that disagrees with me is a troll"

Just keep posting bro.


Did you forget the fail logic part? Or was that it?

Lorael Simatari
Posted - 2011.03.03 07:24:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78
Edited by: Desert Ice78 on 03/03/2011 03:05:06
Originally by: Lorael Simatari
The griefers cannot deny that they get a kick out of this "smart use of game mechanics, their only argument is that people should lose their ships because of one concept, ignorance. Education is key here, we know that there is an issue and we know a solution. stop stealing from cans from outside you control, otherwise your going to get some corp m8 losing his 800mill ship to some fool who spends his entire game time planning these situations that they get thier prized "tears". people get smart, take these kills away from these fools and show them that game mechanics work both ways.

DONT STEAL FROM THIRD PARTY CANS - its friken simple.



Your correct Lorael, except that what the epic thread troll Tippia and the rest of the would-be "elite pvpers" griefers are doing is:-


1.) Tippia puts a.) an in-corp alt and b.) an out-of-corp alt into an Incursion fleet, while his main and all of his "elite pvpers" buddies sit outside the system at the gate.

2.) Tippia's in-corp alt in the midst of the action drops from the fleet and drops a can, and has his out-of-corp alt quietly steal from it, thereby becoming red flagged to Tippia and his “elite pvper” corp mates.

3.) Tippia's out-of-corp alt then screams for reps/cap etc. from all the logistic pilots knowing full well that they have no way of knowing that the out-of-corp alt is red flagged to the troll Pippia, and that, if they then do what they are bloody well meant to be doing as logistics pilots, i.e. rep any and all fleet mates as soon as possible when called for, then they will unknowingly inherit the red-flag.

4.) In the space of less than 10 seconds, the fleets entire composition of logistic pilots unknowingly inherit the red-flag from each other, thereby becoming valid targets for Tippia and his “elite pvper” buddies.

5.) Finally, Tippia's alt's warp out of Incursion, and Tippia and his gang jump into system, warps into the incursion and kills all of the red flagged logistic pilots.

If done correctly, the whole process will take less than 20 seconds, the fleet running the Incursion loses everything, and the troll Tippia and his buddies chorkle to themselves in local about how they had to battle through the odds that were clearly stacked against them in order to kill some logistic pilots and become these mighty pvpers....as everyone who knows Eve game mechanics, knows about the legionary alpha strike of the Basilisk.

Edit: I just realised. This is exactly what was happening when Incursions first came out, which forced CCP to decide that unknowingly repping a GCC flagged person was a broken game mechanic and an exploit. That really just sums it all up, doesn't it.

Trolls, do your worst...




I respect where you are coming from but anyone who has spent time in factional warfare, or in low sec for that matter knows that any unknown neutral player cant be trusted. Saying this why should any logi pilot trust a totally unknown player and offer reps to anyone outside their own fleet? its a question of morals I know but when you risk losing your own ship whats the point. people need to realize that if they see some lone contact inside an incursion its likely a griefer. I disagree with what is happening but people also need to take responsibility for their own actions even if they unknowingly lose a ship, now before any of you guys start yelling I'll say this. tell everyone that's worth telling about this game mechanic in question, education is key here like I mentioned before. this way people will know of this and take action, if they lose a ship its up to them. Even if CCP do choose to do something it will take time, so don't assist any unknown contacts.


Lorael Simatari
Posted - 2011.03.03 07:52:00 - [75]
 

Well I realized that my argument rested on the concept that fleets contained solely corp/alliance mates, this ain't true so any fleet that you join could contain any characters that potentially could flag you. people need to know the risks and then they can act on them.

Tippia, I know as well as many that your gaining from this game mechanic in question, I also know that with careful planning an entire fleet can be suddenly wiped out because of such mechanics. do you call this fair that an entire fleet stands defenseless while you and you corp mates move in. maybe bring in an interdictor and destroy everything in sight. I believe that people should be able to fight back. If I actually knew my fleet was actually being targeted I would naturally warp out, but since I am actually exploiting the game mechanics in your opinion for actually knowing, and then losing a ship, how is that fair. You call it taking advantage of game mechanics, I call it something that is clearly a loophole in the system and the people that are actually gaining from this are clearly just cowards.


TharOkha
Posted - 2011.03.03 09:11:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: TharOkha on 03/03/2011 10:04:22
Edited by: TharOkha on 03/03/2011 09:13:02
Edited by: TharOkha on 03/03/2011 09:12:25
"You call it taking advantage of game mechanics, I call it something that is clearly a loophole in the system and the people that are actually gaining from this are clearly just cowards."

Exactly. Tippia and others. Look, incursions are meant to be a PUBLIC FLEETS. There are public incursion chanels, so people from different corps and solo players can form fleets and fight sanshas. For this purpose, this is clearly loophole and exploit.
Damn, all you "hardcore PVPers" are whining about how many people stays in hisec and dont play eve as multiplayer. Now we have incursions, and many players and those solo hisec carebears finaly tastes what is true multiplayer game. And you? you clearly want to destroy this by words "its a mechanic". No its not mechanics, for public incursions it is an exploit. And please dont call anyone idiot, if you cannot write something about this please dont write at all.

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.03 10:36:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Desert Ice78
Edited by: Desert Ice78 on 03/03/2011 03:05:06
Originally by: Lorael Simatari
The griefers cannot deny that they get a kick out of this "smart use of game mechanics, their only argument is that people should lose their ships because of one concept, ignorance. Education is key here, we know that there is an issue and we know a solution. stop stealing from cans from outside you control, otherwise your going to get some corp m8 losing his 800mill ship to some fool who spends his entire game time planning these situations that they get thier prized "tears". people get smart, take these kills away from these fools and show them that game mechanics work both ways.

DONT STEAL FROM THIRD PARTY CANS - its friken simple.


Your correct Lorael, except that what the epic thread troll Tippia and the rest of the would-be "elite pvpers" griefers are doing is:-


1.) Tippia puts a.) an in-corp alt and b.) an out-of-corp alt into an Incursion fleet, while his main and all of his "elite pvpers" buddies sit outside the system at the gate.

2.) Tippia's in-corp alt in the midst of the action drops from the fleet and drops a can, and has his out-of-corp alt quietly steal from it, thereby becoming red flagged to Tippia and his “elite pvper” corp mates.

3.) Tippia's out-of-corp alt then screams for reps/cap etc. from all the logistic pilots knowing full well that they have no way of knowing that the out-of-corp alt is red flagged to the troll Pippia, and that, if they then do what they are bloody well meant to be doing as logistics pilots, i.e. rep any and all fleet mates as soon as possible when called for, then they will unknowingly inherit the red-flag.

4.) In the space of less than 10 seconds, the fleets entire composition of logistic pilots unknowingly inherit the red-flag from each other, thereby becoming valid targets for Tippia and his “elite pvper” buddies.

5.) Finally, Tippia's alt's warp out of Incursion, and Tippia and his gang jump into system, warps into the incursion and kills all of the red flagged logistic pilots.

If done correctly, the whole process will take less than 20 seconds, the fleet running the Incursion loses everything, and the troll Tippia and his buddies chorkle to themselves in local about how they had to battle through the odds that were clearly stacked against them in order to kill some logistic pilots and become these mighty pvpers....as everyone who knows Eve game mechanics, knows about the legionary alpha strike of the Basilisk.

Edit: I just realised. This is exactly what was happening when Incursions first came out, which forced CCP to decide that unknowingly repping a GCC flagged person was a broken game mechanic and an exploit. That really just sums it all up, doesn't it.

Trolls, do your worst...



That is a staggering level of ignorance of what is happening to you.

1) Is wrong.
2) Is wrong.
3) Is wrong.
4) Is horribly wrong.
5) Is just nuts.

And that Edit: DAT EDIT! What are you smoking?

If that is what is happening to you, then you are seriously and unimagineably beyond hope and literally the only that can save you now is CCP.

I had no idea at the sheer lack of sophistication required to fool your fleets. If this clumsy scenario you describe actually works on you then...

wait... no... you're trollin' I just got trolled didn't I?
Damm, you're good.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:57:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Lorael Simatari
Tippia, I know as well as many that your gaining from this game mechanic in question,
Huh? Could you please share that knowledge with me please, because I sure don't know how I'm gaining anything from it… ugh
Quote:
I also know that with careful planning an entire fleet can be suddenly wiped out because of such mechanics. do you call this fair that an entire fleet stands defenseless while you and you corp mates move in.
Funny thing that. If it's done so that "an entire fleet can be suddenly wiped out", then the fleet in question is not defenceless.
Quote:
I believe that people should be able to fight back.
Funny thing that, too: they can.
Quote:
You call it taking advantage of game mechanics, I call it something that is clearly a loophole in the system
Quite the opposite: it's there to patch the loophole of not being able to nuke neural support ships.
Originally by: TharOkha
Exactly. Tippia and others. Look, incursions are meant to be a PUBLIC FLEETS.
No. They're not meant to be anything that's defined in terms of who does it. They're simply designed to be group content, but exactly how you put those groups together is entirely up for grabs. How you do it is entirely your choice. If you don't feel you can trust a public fleet, don't be in one. If you do, then you can. If you want to do incursions but don't want to be in a public fleet, get organised.
Quote:
There are public incursion chanels, so people from different corps and solo players can form fleets and fight sanshas.
…or to discuss overall strategy as individual fleets tackle different parts of the incursion. Or to discuss tips and tricks and tactics. Or to discuss what to do with all that glorious LP. Or to smack the loot thieves/loot robbed. Or a myriad of other things. Its purpose is simply to act as a very broadly defined topical chat room. Considering how much falls within the realm of that topic, trying to say that they're simply there as a place to X up, and that based on this assumption, the content they're tied to are solely for PUGs is just one non sequitur after another.
Quote:
For this purpose Based on these assumptions, this is clearly loophole and exploit.
Except that there is nothing to say that your assumptions are true; that there is no unexpected or unintended behaviour that is being exploited; that the supposed loophole is trivial to close; that being for groups does not suddenly change the mechanics or the context or the ruleset.
Quote:
Damn, all you "hardcore PVPers" are whining about how many people stays in hisec and dont play eve as multiplayer. Now we have incursions, and many players and those solo hisec carebears finaly tastes what is true multiplayer game.
And that's very heartwarming to see. Now they just have to learn the mechanics of fleets, the sociology (for the lack of a better term) of group play, the competitiveness and politics of PvP, and aaaaall the other things that inherently come with playing as a group in a completely open competitive PvP environment.
Quote:
No its not mechanics, for public incursions it is an exploit.
Public only means that anyone and everyone can go in there and have a shot. It does not mean that anyone and everyone can do them without due precautions, preparations, and planning. They still exist within EVE, with all the backstabbing and trust issues this entails.

And I have to repeat the question: where is the exploit? Where is the part where unexpected or unintended behaviour in the mechanics are used to give anyone an undue advantage? Just because they're public — just because anyone can join in the fun — does not mean that the mechanics change and suddenly behave in unexpected ways, so their being public does not suddenly turn the exact same mechanics that operate in the exact same way in every other situation into an exploit.

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:15:00 - [79]
 

I can see if there were people saying "You shouldn't be able to RR can flippers at all." This is a mechanic change, and would have impacts beyond incursions. But honestly, this is sounding more like people who want to protect a vested interest in order to disrupt incursions when they argue against a simple notification.

You already have mechanics to gank people in incursions. They are called wardecs. I'm getting a bit annoyed at the constant reliance on gaming aggro systems done by pvp carebears in order to get cheap kills, and the attempts to always put risk on the people that actually try to do things in the game.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:30:00 - [80]
 

Exploits are deemed as such by CCP.

Unless you are a dev or have heard it from a dev that it is an exploit, you are wrong in this part.

It is currently a game mechanic that you do not like. That is all. It is a game mechanic that has been in game for literally years. Just because you only recently decided to play with other people in this MMO and thus learned about these mechanics, does not make them exploits.

File a bug report. Petition it. Don't come crying here about exploits. If they were exploits, CCP would deem them as such and ban people that continued to use them until the exploit was fixed.

Until then, it remains a mechanic that you simply don't like.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:44:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: XXSketchxx
Exploits are deemed as such by CCP.

Unless you are a dev or have heard it from a dev that it is an exploit, you are wrong in this part.

It is currently a game mechanic that you do not like. That is all. It is a game mechanic that has been in game for literally years. Just because you only recently decided to play with other people in this MMO and thus learned about these mechanics, does not make them exploits.

File a bug report. Petition it. Don't come crying here about exploits. If they were exploits, CCP would deem them as such and ban people that continued to use them until the exploit was fixed.

Until then, it remains a mechanic that you simply don't like.


This is what I, and Tippia, have been trying to say since this thread started. We may as well be trying to gather water in a sieve.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:51:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/03/2011 13:52:37
Originally by: De'Veldrin


This is what I, and Tippia, have been trying to say since this thread started. We may as well be trying to gather water in a sieve.


Unfortunately trying to reason with entitled carebears is like trying to reason with terrorists.

We're all threats to their world of peace and joy and anything we say is trolling or an attempt to preserve our own griefing methods.

Heaven forbid we be arguing for the sake of preserving reason and logical thought.

edit: the fact that some of them are adamantly convinced Tippia is using this mechanic to grief anyone is quite amusing actually

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:56:00 - [83]
 

You know what warning is also missing?

"YOU ARE ABOUT TO FIRE AT SOMEBODY. IF YOU DO, THEY CAN LAWFULLY FIRE BACK? ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS Y/N?"

Just saying, there are plenty of people who died because they didn't even know about this game mechanic. Perhaps they should get a warning too?

How about:-

"YOU ARE ABOUT TO PURCHASE AN ITEM THAN IS OBVIOUSLY ONE HALF OF MARGIN TRADING SCAM. IF YOU PURCHASE THIS ITEM YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SELL IT INSTANTLY AND MAKE A MASSIVE PROFIT IN LESS THAN 10 SECONDS, EVEN THOUGH IT LOOKS LIKE YOU CAN. ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO GIVE THIS EVIL, NO GOOD, DIRTY ALPHABETICAL ****PIG YOUR HARD EARNED ISK?"

Because... ya know people lose a lot more isk in a split second to scams than your Basilisk would ever cost.


So come on repwhiners, which game mechanic can you think of that leads to a big loss that was EASILY avoidable, but for which you would be shocked if anybody said they needed a warning sign for?

How about this one?
Beware of the sign

Kacer Xenro
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:03:00 - [84]
 

Really, something like this is so easily avoidable its ridicoulus...

why would you even fly with people you dont know in the first place?

eve isnt hello kitty online, so grow some balls and deal with it.

Arden Elenduil
Minmatar
The League of Extraordinary Mentlegen
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:03:00 - [85]
 

If there's anyone griefing the carebears using this mechanic, it's us ^^

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:22:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Arden Elenduil
If there's anyone griefing the carebears using this mechanic, it's us ^^


So you're here to make sure nobody else gets to vicariously enjoy the tears? Bastards.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:40:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 03/03/2011 14:57:02
Originally by: Centri Sixx
You already have mechanics to gank people in incursions. They are called wardecs. I'm getting a bit annoyed at the constant reliance on gaming aggro systems done by pvp carebears in order to get cheap kills, and the attempts to always put risk on the people that actually try to do things in the game.
The problem is that all those aggro systems are there for very good reasons. Yes, "carebears" who are not familiar with these mechanics will get themselves killed in new and interesting ways, but that's just how it is — you live and learn. Well… you learn… well… some learn, others just whine a lot.

Anyway… The reason people rely on these systems is because they have to, because there are numerous ways to avoid the more formal means of killing someone. Just because there are some… let's call them unsavoury … uses of the same mechanics does not mean the mechanics themselves are at fault. Sure, if there was no wardec immunity; if it was an exploit to jump corps; if there were personal wardecs; if there were no increasing costs for multiple decs; hell… if CONCORD wasn't an enforced death sentence, then people wouldn't have to rely on these mechanics to get at their legitimate targets, nor would there be any "illegitimate" uses of the mechanics against unsuspecting victims (mainly because the mechanics wouldn't be there to begin with since there would be nothing for them to solve).

Put another way: as long as there are ways of protecting yourself from violence, there must be ways of circumventing those protections, and as long as there are ways of circumventing them, people will use those ways to get to "innocent" targets. The only solution would be to remove all forms of protection, but guess what: then the exact same innocent targets would be even more screwed. As it is, these targets have their means of protecting themselves and if they just learn about the mechanics used to circumvent those protections, they can take measures to drastically reduce their exposure to those tactics as well.

Claiming that these tactics — which, again, are working exactly as intended, and for very good reasons — are "exploits" or "glitches" only serves to perpetuate their status as unknowing, unsuspecting, and above all ignorantly self-induced victims.
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Originally by: Arden Elenduil
If there's anyone griefing the carebears using this mechanic, it's us ^^
So you're here to make sure nobody else gets to vicariously enjoy the tears? Bastards.
That would be such a beautiful case of meta-(meta-)griefing that it almost brings tears to my eyes. Laughing

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:58:00 - [88]
 

What really kills me is that CCP will probably change this, to make folks happy - as I said before, I am pretty sure arguing against these changes is fighting an uphill battle. I may be wrong, but I'd be shocked if I was.

Yet, we can't get CCP to address things that are desperately broken with this game, like POS's, the Corporate roles UI, and the fact that I don't have access to Chribba's wallet.

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:29:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Hardcore PVPers
...noooo, dont take our easy targets from us......

Man i laugh so hard Laughing. We just demand
-warning sign for logis "you are about to repair flagged criminal"
-or (much better solution Twisted Evil) whole fleet aggresion, so we, the whole fleet, can fight back, when some "hardcore PVP carebears" shooting our logis using this exploit.

Seriously. All of you who are againist this are from large null alliances and corporations (exept Carebear hisec PVP aliance "Tears extraction"), but i dont understand why, why are you aggainist this, when its purely exploit in game mechanics. Yea, i understand this "dont fly with someone who you dont know" but we are talking about incursions, the Public fleets.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:46:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: TharOkha
Originally by: Hardcore PVPers
...noooo, dont take our easy targets from us......
Man i laugh so hard Laughing.
Well, it's nice that you find your own fantasies amusing.

Now, how about you actually pay attention to what people are saying instead?
Quote:
-or (much better solution Twisted Evil) whole fleet aggresion, so we, the whole fleet, can fight back, when some "hardcore PVP carebears" shooting our logis
Yes. Lofty is great.
Quote:
using this exploit.
What exploit?
Quote:
Seriously. All of you who are againist this are from large null alliances and corporations (exept Carebear hisec PVP aliance "Tears extraction"),
Incorrect.
Quote:
but i dont understand why, why are you aggainist this,
How about you actually pay attention to what people are saying?
Quote:
when its purely exploit in game mechanics
What's the exploit?
Quote:
Yea, i understand this "dont fly with someone who you dont know" but we are talking about incursions, the Public fleets.
"Doctor, it hurts when I drive nails into my thigh."


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