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blankseplocked Incursion Can Flipper GLITCH
 
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Katdoral
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:13:00 - [31]
 

I find it intersting that those in opposition to this post keep referring to this being a part of game mechanics, and not an exploit. The issue with this of course is that as Gav above explained, the logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves. I also noticed that at least one of those opposed to this thread has admitted to using this exploit to "murder" logistics ships. From a purely objective standpoint, this can only be described as an exploit, as it uses the internal mechanics of the flagging system to gain an undetectable advantage. And before anyone tries to point it out, this is not at all similair to using a module like a cloak. Cloaks, and most other modules to some degree, can be circumvented tactically. Further, if CCP had intended it otherwise, there would not be a warning in the first case. So, to preserve continuity in the internal mechanics of the game, CCP should add the pop up warning that the logistics pilot can then decide to either accept or deny.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:31:00 - [32]
 

Expecting open fleets with random pilots that you don't know before to work is one of the stupidest things I've heard of in eve. This game is built around exploiting, stealing and killing. If you've been playing eve as long as I have you would have heard this argument a dozen times before "Someone in our fleet/gang is using game mechanics to get easy kills off us".

It's been that way for ages through dozens of changes to fleet mechanics, and I'm sure we'll see dozens more cases like this in the future. I"m also sure we'll see this get fixed Soon™, the only question is weather it's a couple months or a couple years.

Yes I know CCP expect us to have open pub fleets for incursions, I also don't think CCP are stupid enough to not realize something like this would happen.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:48:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 01/03/2011 21:49:41
Originally by: Katdoral
The issue with this of course is that as Gav above explained, the logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves.
In other words, maybe it's time they learned about the game mechanics.
Quote:
From a purely objective standpoint,
…this is no different than canflipping, which is not an exploit. Yet it catches quite a lot of people who haven't learned about the game mechanics.

Being ignorant about game mechanics does not make your misfortunes the result of glitches or exploits.

Gavascon
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:49:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Gavascon on 01/03/2011 21:49:50
as with all things - if someone wants to steal they will.

i do NOT wish to stop anyone from doing so - if they feel that's the right thing to do - then go ahead.

however - a logistics pilot should be offered a CHOICE. that being to rep and accept the consequences or decline and walk away.

a choice is offered for war targets and for global criminals. if agreed the logistic pilot assumes full responsibility for being aggressed by opposing war targets or getting concorded.

no choice is offered for repping theives. therefore, a choice should be offered.

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:42:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Tippia

this is no different than canflipping, which is not an exploit.

yea but main difference between can flipping and this exploit is that, if you flip can, you are warned "youll become criminal". If someone open that can, its his stupidity and need to learn, but this is pure exploit because "the logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves". period Rolling Eyes

Lighter
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:53:00 - [36]
 

Hi again everyone,

I'm happy alot of the pilots agree with me, but at the same time also like that pirates take a word on the issue at hand.

The only thing I would like to ask and mention to you all is this.

WHY SHOULD A LOGI PILOT NOT GET A WARNING LIKE THEY DO WHEN AIDING A WAR TARGET ?

Give me some good reasons and even I might change my oppinion about the issue at hand.....


Regards
Lighter

Katdoral
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:58:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 01/03/2011 21:49:41
Originally by: Katdoral
The issue with this of course is that as Gav above explained, the logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves.
In other words, maybe it's time they learned about the game mechanics.
Quote:
From a purely objective standpoint,
…this is no different than canflipping, which is not an exploit. Yet it catches quite a lot of people who haven't learned about the game mechanics.

Being ignorant about game mechanics does not make your misfortunes the result of glitches or exploits.


The issue is not whether they are aware of the game mechanics. Aware of the mechanics or not, they still have no way of knowing that they are flagged. It is an invisible mechanic that operates with no notice to the player. THAT is the issue.

And as for this being no different then can flipping, as stated above, it certainly is. You are given a choice to continue, whereas a logistics pilot is not.

I am not a logistics pilot, nor do I have any intention of becoming one. I have no moral investment in this either, I've certainly participated in my fair share of griefing. However, it is still an exploit.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:54:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 01/03/2011 23:58:32
Originally by: TharOkha
yea but main difference between can flipping and this exploit is that, if you flip can, you are warned "youll become criminal".
Ok, fine. It's just like theft response aggression: the much more trivial case where flipping isn't even involved.
Quote:
but this is pure exploit
Where is the exploit? Where is the part where unexpected or unintended behaviour in the mechanics are used to give anyone an undue advantage?
Quote:
because "the logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves". period Rolling Eyes
Only if they are ignorant to the game mechanics. If not, they are very well aware of this behaviour.
Originally by: Katdoral
The issue is not whether they are aware of the game mechanics.
Yes it is. This is standard aggression transference that any logi pilot should know about. Nothing new. Nothing odd. Nothing unintended.

If a remote support pilot is caught by surprise by this, it's because he didn't understand what he was doing and the mechanics involved. Being ignorant about game mechanics does not make your misfortunes the result of glitches or exploits.
Quote:
However, it is still an exploit.
See above. Where is the exploit?

Slaveball Scumbucket
Posted - 2011.03.02 00:11:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Typhado3
Expecting open fleets with random pilots that you don't know before to work is one of the stupidest things I've heard of in eve. This game is built around exploiting, stealing and killing. If you've been playing eve as long as I have you would have heard this argument a dozen times before "Someone in our fleet/gang is using game mechanics to get easy kills off us".

It's been that way for ages through dozens of changes to fleet mechanics, and I'm sure we'll see dozens more cases like this in the future. I"m also sure we'll see this get fixed Soon™, the only question is weather it's a couple months or a couple years.

Yes I know CCP expect us to have open pub fleets for incursions, I also don't think CCP are stupid enough to not realize something like this would happen.


This is the one I'd like CCP to see. It basically says no strangers together, the game is grief, but at the end of the day, it's not really working as expected. Straight from the horses mouth there? It's one thing to make a mistake or have to defend yourself but to gain auto aggro and death backed up by your godlike employer (Concord) isn't very encouraging. CCP set the incursions to take much more effort at first. This rate will make it much less when I was starting to think they might put the difficulty back up if we asked them. Don't like to complain about stealing and fighting or even trickery but the auto-aggro thing was a bit fluffy swallowing it.

Did the ninjas get anything? No they got no loot and lost 150mills worth of BS. But they get the salvage on the logis? Waay go on the ninjas, it was so cool even you stopped doing it and sat in incursion chat blabbing for the night instead. 2 nights even. Did a load of logi pilots blab back? Yeah everyone lost a bit.

Gavascon
Posted - 2011.03.02 00:14:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Gavascon on 02/03/2011 00:17:49
omg -

tippia - the only way any logistics pilot is going to know if someone stole from a can or wreck is to check the fleet loot history log. that is, if it's been enabled by the fc.

during battle - the logistic pilot's obiligation is to "heal" fleetmates as needed.
no logi pilot is going to check the loot history BEFORE providing reps. to do so loses valuable time.

aside from the loot history - there is NO WAY for ANY logistics pilot to know who has been criminally flagged due to stealing until the agression timer appears. at which point, it's too late for the logi pilot and all his cap buddies.





Rage MorbidCloud
Posted - 2011.03.02 01:11:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 01/03/2011 21:49:41
Originally by: Katdoral
The issue with this of course is that as Gav above explained, the logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves.
In other words, maybe it's time they learned about the game mechanics.
Quote:
From a purely objective standpoint,
…this is no different than canflipping, which is not an exploit. Yet it catches quite a lot of people who haven't learned about the game mechanics.

Being ignorant about game mechanics does not make your misfortunes the result of glitches or exploits.

do you work for CCP..
All you do is when you post a comment is support CCP and its game mechanics. I have seen so many of your posts, and you post alot. I smell something fishy and its Tippia.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2011.03.02 04:06:00 - [42]
 

I do like how the pirates like a flawed mechanic that gives them the advantage of destroying a fleets logistics ships, without that fleet being able to do anything, because concord will destroy them.

We also can all see how effective the low sec and null sec incursions are, they are almost utterly pointless due to the fact they are like beacons for pirates.

This game is stacked in the favor of chaos and isolation. It forces people to group up and not trust anyone, if you trust someone you get screwed usually with no way at all of getting back at the person who screwed you.

This mechanic needs to be fixed because pretty soon only a few specialized corp will be doing incursions and getting very rich at it, rather than the wild free for all it currently is.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.02 07:30:00 - [43]
 

lol, no one tried that in test I'll bet. nice catch.

Azhpol
Gallente
Casa Del Wombat
Posted - 2011.03.02 08:08:00 - [44]
 

To the person thinking Tippia is a CCP employee... if you pay attention the only mechanics defended are the ones that are abusable for griefing or ganking YARRRR!!

And on the subject at hand, the logi pilots can't tell if someone in fleet is flashy red, and so can't tell that they are inheriting a aggro timer. It HAS always worked this way, but this is the first large scale situation where people didn't know what their fleetmates were doing to abuse it. It isn't currently an exploit, it is simply smart use of mechanics, however, should probably be changed so that you get either a a pop up, or people who have such an aggro timer can be marked on your overview.

THE B3AST
Posted - 2011.03.02 08:44:00 - [45]
 

Signed.

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.02 11:54:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: TharOkha
RE: Cam and Gavjack
You seriously missing my point. Rolling Eyes
Maybe:
1.You never flew incursion
2.You are a part of those griefers.
If 2. I understand. You want more easy risk-free targets exploiting this glitch.
If 1. I dont know why did you ever reply to this topic.



Such delicious and irrelevant assumptions you make.

I drew up plans to be those griefers and shelved them. You think griefing is SUPER EASY KILLS OMFG GO TO LOWSEC, but yet it's really not. It requires a great deal of understanding game mechanics, and how to manipulate real world minds into believing that Situation X is actually Situation Y and fooling Person A into Action B and then having Resource C in place to give Person A a good shoeing for being kinda naive or even dumb.

The conversion rate of turning a griefing attempt into a successful griefing is actually really quite low. It's higher during early stages of a new development in the game, because griefers know the kind of things that usually work well and with their far enhanced knowledge of game mechanics are able to bring those to bear.

But I sat and thought about it for a while and for me, it came to a simple decision. Am I prepared to engage in collaborative pve and listen to their inadequacies & bull**** just to kill them?
And the answer was No, I'll leave it to those who can stomach that.

I want the tears, but I don't want to listen to any of the stereotypical weak willed, self righteous nonsense coming out of my victim's pieholes prior to the sobbing.

And the reason I'm answering in this thread despite having no interest in collaborative pve is because the game mechanics you learned about in the last week have been in use for years. Years. YEARS. YEARS. You make assertions about me and what I do, yet you have so little insight into your gripe that you are actually incapable of understanding that which you are demanding. You simply want risk free pve at any cost.

We've already recently had CCP change one long standing game mechanic to accomodate the inadequacies of their intended customers with the CONCORD yo-yo nerf, we're very likely to have to sit through them doing it again.

We had to watch them change wreck salvage mechanics about two months after wrecks were introduced because the carebears were dying by the hundred.

We had to watch CCP change the aggro rules for remote repping belt rats, because it used to make you flashy red to everybody in hisec, carebears again started shooting the flashy and therefore dying by the hundred. CCP stepped in to protect those who are not prepared to take responsibility for their own safety, making it a CONCORD offence to remote rep a belt rat.

And we're going to continue to watch CCP taking extraordinary measures to protect people from themselves. With every change griefing has to adapt, and it does, because griefers have taken an internal oath to enjoy that which they do and to become great at it, to overcome adversity, to rise to every challenge, to overcome CCP's meddling and to get those juicy tears. That is what it means to be a griefer. Not to get easy valueless kills, but to find a way.

We make the kill look easy by putting in a lot of time and effort learning and practising to make it look easy. This is possibly the single hardest concept for any inadequate victim to ever comprehend.

You are arrogant. You believe I do not and cannot understand your point. I understood your point long before you even had a point, you're too busy wallowing in inadequacy and self pity to even acknowledge that your solution is available to you within existing game mechanics, let attempt to bother to understand what it is and how it's done.

You're not expected to read this and learn anything or understand anything new. Us griefers have been here way too many times to know exactly how you're going to respond.

These flames need extinguishing, enough tears will do it.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.02 12:39:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Azhpol
To the person thinking Tippia is a CCP employee... if you pay attention the only mechanics defended are the ones that are abusable for griefing or ganking YARRRR!!
I take it you haven't been paying attention then, since that's not even close to being correct.

What I do is defend mechanics when the reasons presented for changing them are based on ignorance. People here are calling this a "glitch" or an "exploit", and as long as they do that, that is the only label that can be assigned to them: ignorant. I'd use harsher words, but I'm far too kind for that.

This is not a glitch, nor is it an exploit, and any kind of argument for changing the mechanics that is based on any of those two notions is, by extension, equally ignorant and simply not worthy of consideration. That's why I object to it: because the reasons for changing something that's working just fine are inadequate and because the things that people present as proof for it not working "just fine" are equally explained by "didn't do their homework" (which means the solution is "do your homework", not "change the game").

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.03.02 13:34:00 - [48]
 

Rolling Eyes Ok one more time
Game mechanics:
if you want to steal from can = you are warned = ok
if you want repair war target = you are warned = ok
if you want repair flagged criminal = you are not warned = exploit in game mechanics

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.03.02 13:55:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: TharOkha
Rolling Eyes Ok one more time
Game mechanics:
if you want to steal from can = you are warned = ok
if you want repair war target = you are warned = ok
if you want repair flagged criminal = you are not warned = exploit in game mechanics



People throw that word around a lot. "Exploit"

Unless CCP has explicitly declared it an exploit, it's not an exploit, so quit using the word in the wrong context. What you believe is beside the point - CCP is the final arbiter on what is classified as an exploit, and until they say something is an exploit, it's not. Simple as that.

Side note: I am not saying this to prevent you from arguing over the subject - I'm saying this because I don't want some new player wrongly thinking they're protected by "petition the exploit". It's a game mechanic, and it is working as it was designed until CCP says otherwise.

By all means, argue for a change to the mechanic, if you truly believe it needs changing, that's what this forum is for. But stop calling it an exploit.

That is all, you may now continue with your regularly scheduled diatribe laden flame fest, already in progress.

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:41:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Gavjack Bunk on 02/03/2011 14:45:32
Originally by: TharOkha
Rolling Eyes Ok one more time
Game mechanics:
if you want to steal from can = you are warned = ok
if you want repair war target = you are warned = ok
if you want repair flagged criminal = you are not warned = exploit in game mechanics



if you want to take an action for which you have not taken the bare minimum let alone sufficient measures to minimise your risk = you are inadequate = perfectly fine whatever happens to you.

Warning on superman cape: Wearing this does not enable the wearer to fly.

Warning on a bag nuts. May contain nuts.

Warning on a cup of coffee. Coffee may be hot.

These are warnings for you, not for us.

EDIT:
I heard you really loved rolleys emoticon...

Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes
Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

Warning. Rolling eyes may lead to dizziness.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:47:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 02/03/2011 14:49:17
Originally by: TharOkha
if you want repair flagged criminal = you are not warned = exploit in game mechanics
Incorrect .

If you want to repair someone with aggression flagging = you get flagged.
Getting flagged for aiding aggressors = expected behaviour.
Expected behaviour = working as intended.
Working as intended = not exploit.

You not being familiar with mechanics and having bad things happen to you as a result ≠ exploit.

You being familiar with mechanics and having bad things happen to you because the mechanics are not working as intended (i.e. bugged), and others knowing that they are not working as intended, and using said bug against you…

…now that is an exploit.

This little piece of shenanigans doesn't tick any of those boxes, except for the "bad things happen to you" bit, and as much as you hate it, bad things happening to you — on its own — is not an exploit.

Wtf Pwnage
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:18:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 01/03/2011 23:58:32
Originally by: TharOkha
yea but main difference between can flipping and this exploit is that, if you flip can, you are warned "youll become criminal".
Ok, fine. It's just like theft response aggression: the much more trivial case where flipping isn't even involved.
Quote:
but this is pure exploit
Where is the exploit? Where is the part where unexpected or unintended behaviour in the mechanics are used to give anyone an undue advantage?
Quote:
because "the logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves". period Rolling Eyes
Only if they are ignorant to the game mechanics. If not, they are very well aware of this behaviour.
Originally by: Katdoral
The issue is not whether they are aware of the game mechanics.
Yes it is. This is standard aggression transference that any logi pilot should know about. Nothing new. Nothing odd. Nothing unintended.

If a remote support pilot is caught by surprise by this, it's because he didn't understand what he was doing and the mechanics involved. Being ignorant about game mechanics does not make your misfortunes the result of glitches or exploits.
Quote:
However, it is still an exploit.
See above. Where is the exploit?


By your "argument," you acknowledge it IS and exploit, but only to those logi pilots who are unaware of it. What does that even mean? There is no flag warning, and there is no choice. Well, I guess a choice would be to not fly Incursions, if CCP doesn't fix it because you can't do it without Logi.

Wtf Pwnage
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:28:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 02/03/2011 14:49:17
Originally by: TharOkha
if you want repair flagged criminal = you are not warned = exploit in game mechanics
Incorrect .

If you want to repair someone with aggression flagging = you get flagged.
Getting flagged for aiding aggressors = expected behaviour.
Expected behaviour = working as intended.
Working as intended = not exploit.

You not being familiar with mechanics and having bad things happen to you as a result ≠ exploit.

You being familiar with mechanics and having bad things happen to you because the mechanics are not working as intended (i.e. bugged), and others knowing that they are not working as intended, and using said bug against you…

…now that is an exploit.

This little piece of shenanigans doesn't tick any of those boxes, except for the "bad things happen to you" bit, and as much as you hate it, bad things happening to you — on its own — is not an exploit.


System lag and crashes must be working as intended according to your logic. CCP stop working on delocalization!! Tippia has solved all your lag problems, because, if it's in the game, it must have been intended. Lag is working as intended.

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:35:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
There is no flag warning, and there is no choice. Well, I guess a choice would be to not fly Incursions, if CCP doesn't fix it because you can't do it without Logi.


Just for you, because you are a multi-incursion-thread whinemaster, here is a general tip, a rule of thumb if you like, a guide, a mantra, a unified theory, a simple, basic way for you to determine how to fix ANY issue for your own self.


Spend a few weeks trying to accomplish that which "they" are doing to you.

Hey presto, now you know how to stop them.

And it does not matter what it is, thieving, scamming, shooting, it works equally for all activities. Try it for yourself. Learn how to do it and at the same time you learn how to stop it.

I know how to reduce the risk of this occurring to me down to mathematically insignificant percentages. This is because I know how to do it to other people, thus I understand fully all the factors and variables and if somebody were to actually try it on me, I could inform the fleet of how we can soon have a chance at an easy kill for the fleet while putting the embarassment onto a griefer who may soon be taking his turn to cry in local, and yes, they do.

But that's not the point. The point is, the rule works for everything, learning how to do it teaches you how to counter it.

I know what you're thinking.
"But I already know how they are doing it, and I still can't think my way out of this paper bag"
No. You don't know. You've read about a mechanic being used against you, that's all. You don't know jack. You won't know enough until you take responsibility for yourself and try it.

But we both know that it's never going to happen, not while the forums offer you a soapbox on which you may freely cry foul. Because learning something is effort isn't it?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.02 19:38:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 02/03/2011 19:38:56
Originally by: Wtf Pwnage
By your "argument," you acknowledge it IS and exploit, but only to those logi pilots who are unaware of it. What does that even mean?
No. I acknowledge that logistics pilots are completely unaware that they are flagging themselves only if they are unfamiliar with the mechanics. Being unaware of mechanics ≠ exploit or glitch.
Quote:
There is no flag warning, and there is no choice.
There is plenty of choice. Not supporting pilots you don't know and trust being the blindingly obvious one.
Quote:
System lag and crashes must be working as intended according to your logic.
Wrong version of "expected", so no. They are not intended. Moreover, you actually stand a chance to get stuff fixed/repaired/reversed if you fall afoul of something that happens solely due to crashes.

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.03.02 20:54:00 - [56]
 

I don't see what is wrong with this. They are not saying "don't let us rep can thieves," but "give a notification when we violate GCC by doing so, because it doesn't." It's just making GCC warnings consistent by type.

TharOkha
Posted - 2011.03.02 21:00:00 - [57]
 

Exactly centri. Were asking simple warning tab, like when you want repair war target. Unfortunately "players" like Tipia are those griefers, whose dont want to lose easy and risk free hisec targets. Rolling Eyes So they just trolling here.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.02 21:04:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 02/03/2011 21:05:04
Originally by: Centri Sixx
I don't see what is wrong with this.
They think it's a "glitch" or an "exploit".
Originally by: TharOkha
Unfortunately "players" like Tipia are those griefers, whose dont want to lose easy and risk free hisec targets.
100% incorrect.

PointlessWitch
Posted - 2011.03.02 21:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 02/03/2011 21:05:04
Originally by: Centri Sixx
I don't see what is wrong with this.
They think it's a "glitch" or an "exploit".
Originally by: TharOkha
Unfortunately "players" like Tipia are those griefers, whose dont want to lose easy and risk free hisec targets.
100% incorrect.


quit trolling. leave your house and talk to some real people, because your brain is turning into a 4chan database.

Anyone arguing this Topic is one or all of the following:
*) Is 12 Years Old
*) Have never been in a war and/or have never done straight up pvp
*) Wants to see that the morale of incursion sites drops to the point they go undone.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.02 21:46:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: PointlessWitch
quit trolling.
I have to start before I can quit. Correcting people when they misuse of the terms "exploit" or "glitch" to explain completely normal, intended and expected behaviour is not trolling, fyi.
Quote:
Anyone arguing this Topic is one or all of the following:
*) Familiar with game mechanics.
Fix'd. Incidentally, that's also where a large part of the solution to the underlying problem can be found…


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