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EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 02:07:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: EnderCapitalG on 28/02/2011 02:10:11
In nullsec, it's far too easy for carebears to survive since the advent of the Jump Bridge POS module.

This allows the carebears to not only escape wolfpacks without even having to fight us back, but it also allows for people to come from all over the reason to blob our wolfpack out, when all we want is a 1v1 pvp honour dual.

Also, it stagnates small gang PvP and prevents small alliances from moving into nullsec since they are not able to subvert the larger alliances are their jump bridge networks (see: force projection).

As for local, if we remove it, then our wolfpacks can have more goodfights, and then we will be happy to roam wherever we please without the locals being able to have an instantaneous tool to figure out if we're there or not. They should have to use the directional scanner to figure out of we're coming, and by then it's too late YARRRR!!

e: Grammar correction.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 02:19:00 - [2]
 

+1

But this isn't even the biggest concern out there. Logistics have a pitifully easy time avoiding what should be the legitimate concern of wolfpacks in the manner of Titan bridging and Jump Freighters. Both of these methods need serious reworking in the form of a jump distance nerf. As it stands right now, just about anyone is within range of Jita. Small scale PvP is what this game was founded on, and needs to return to. Nerf ALL bridges and JFs!

TheBooky
Posted - 2011.02.28 04:16:00 - [3]
 

While we are at it why don't we remove capitals, t2, t3 and go back to the good days when there were only a few ships. Yes local is an intel tool, deal with it ( I am tired of seeing pirate tears over a functions that will not change) If you want to know why local is good then read the other 400 million threads on it. Jump bridges have already been said to need work, however those jump bridges that you are so quickly to denounce and the titan bridges, they are the same thing that prevents your massive 500 man fleet from having to pilot 90 jumps.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 04:55:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: TheBooky
While we are at it why don't we remove capitals, t2, t3 and go back to the good days when there were only a few ships. Yes local is an intel tool, deal with it ( I am tired of seeing pirate tears over a functions that will not change) If you want to know why local is good then read the other 400 million threads on it. Jump bridges have already been said to need work, however those jump bridges that you are so quickly to denounce and the titan bridges, they are the same thing that prevents your massive 500 man fleet from having to pilot 90 jumps.


But if we remove the bridges and even do as Feligast says and remove/nerf titan bridges, then we can eliminate the force projection problem of moving those fleets 90 (!) jumps.

Imagine if this happens, and then the entire NC doesn't want to help each other and they all reset each other!!! Goodfights all in the same area, you only have to go a few jumps! And then small gangs can go have goodfights while the blobs have to hit the multibillion HP structures and I can get me some kills YARRRR!!


Also, I approve of nerfing jump freighters, since it will allow for the stimulating of local markets, instead of everyone shipping things in from Jita. We might even get some miners out in Deklein!! And then the prices can be lower on our market since it's private Cool

DrDooma
Posted - 2011.02.28 05:38:00 - [5]
 

So what you really wont is WH space in nullsec? What not just go to WH space?

What alternatives do you propose to removing local?

raney ilara
Posted - 2011.02.28 07:07:00 - [6]
 

Quote:
This allows the carebears to not only escape wolfpacks without even having to fight us back, but it also allows for people to come from all over the reason to blob our wolfpack out, when all we want is a 1v1 pvp honour dual.



well, I disagree. Making carebears harder to defend.. and pos's easier to take down is a wrong move that I wish was corrected from past changes. The bridges are ok with me.. but some things need some beef... not less beef.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 13:49:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: raney ilara
Quote:
This allows the carebears to not only escape wolfpacks without even having to fight us back, but it also allows for people to come from all over the reason to blob our wolfpack out, when all we want is a 1v1 pvp honour dual.



well, I disagree. Making carebears harder to defend.. and pos's easier to take down is a wrong move that I wish was corrected from past changes. The bridges are ok with me.. but some things need some beef... not less beef.


Don't you see? CCP markets 0.0 as a harsh place to live, and right now it's a carebear paradise. I'm tired of this, and I want it to be a harsh place to live, and these changes will make it so. Also, with the force projection nerfs we can have small gang PvP Cool

IronHack
Posted - 2011.02.28 14:20:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: IronHack on 28/02/2011 14:20:18
well then, stop Blueing every Alliance that roams through your space and you'll have something to fight other then IT

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.28 14:31:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Don't you see? CCP markets 0.0 as a harsh place to live, and right now it's a carebear paradise. I'm tired of this, and I want it to be a harsh place to live, and these changes will make it so. Also, with the force projection nerfs we can have small gang PvP Cool


But of course it's a safe paradise when you own A WHOLE REGION LaughingLaughingLaughing

Btw, not supported.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 14:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: The Offerer
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Don't you see? CCP markets 0.0 as a harsh place to live, and right now it's a carebear paradise. I'm tired of this, and I want it to be a harsh place to live, and these changes will make it so. Also, with the force projection nerfs we can have small gang PvP Cool


But of course it's a safe paradise when you own A WHOLE REGION LaughingLaughingLaughing

Btw, very supported.


Nerfing jump bridges will keep alliances from being able to hold entire regions, obviously.

As for bluing everyone, the blues will break up when the JB networks are gone Wink

IronHack
Posted - 2011.02.28 14:45:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: IronHack on 28/02/2011 15:14:59
Edited by: IronHack on 28/02/2011 15:14:04
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: The Offerer
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Don't you see? CCP markets 0.0 as a harsh place to live, and right now it's a carebear paradise. I'm tired of this, and I want it to be a harsh place to live, and these changes will make it so. Also, with the force projection nerfs we can have small gang PvP Cool


But of course it's a safe paradise when you own A WHOLE REGION LaughingLaughingLaughing

Btw, very supported.






As for bluing everyone, the blues will break up when the JB networks are gone
Nerfing jump bridges will keep alliances from being able to hold entire regions, obviously. Wink




Id maybe say place a limit to either how many times a JB can be used an hour or place a timer between when person 1 and person 2 can jump through the same JB making it harder for mass fleet movement, But I really dont think removing JB's all together would be the best way about it. Have like 3 models or so with different stats fuel cost/time between use/max jumps per hour kind of thing.

An as for removing local, that is done in WH as someone else already said. Raid them if thats the PvP you want to engage in.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.28 14:45:00 - [12]
 

Now, you do know that CCP is apparently already planning to do something along these lines, right?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.02.28 14:59:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG

Nerfing jump bridges will keep alliances from being able to hold entire regions, obviously.

As for bluing everyone, the blues will break up when the JB networks are gone Wink


notsureifserious.jpg

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 15:38:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Now, you do know that CCP is apparently already planning to do something along these lines, right?


Really? I thought I was the first to thinkk of this Sad

Do you have a link to where this was discussed? I hope it gets through!!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.28 15:49:00 - [15]
 

CSM Minutes from 15–17 Dec 2010, p. 29:
Quote:
The CSM asked whether the introduction of easy logistics caused nullsec population increase; if not a lot of people moved out when it became easy, not a lot will move back when it becomes hard. No immediate numbers were available.

The CSM was somewhat divided on how aggressive CCP should be with any nerfing. However, one CSM suggested, with respect to the nerfing of jump bridges, “get rid of them.”

Greyscale: “Anyone disagree with that?”
CSM response varied between “Nope,” “Nah” and a simple “No”.
Greyscale: “Sweet!” – meaning that option will then not be discarded when the topic of jump bridges will be on CCP’s table.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.02.28 15:51:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Tippia
Now, you do know that CCP is apparently already planning to do something along these lines, right?


Really? I thought I was the first to thinkk of this Sad

Do you have a link to where this was discussed? I hope it gets through!!


It was mentioned as an idea only on the latest CSM-CCP meeting. You can read it in meeting minutes at http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/transcripts.asp.

Basically, nerfing jump bridges and messing around with power projection makes a big hit on industrial side of nullsec and requires a complete mining in 0.0 rehauling. If implemented alone, nullsec would become very expensive or pretty much impossible to live in (or not a viable option considering how much ISK can be made in highsec). That brings us to highsec nerf, which is not good (any massive nerf is not good btw). In one word, it's complicated.

About removing local, I must say no to the idea. If I wanted to live without local, I would go to W-Space. I've made my choice to live in 0.0 instead.

Shoopa Whoopa
Posted - 2011.02.28 16:03:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 28/02/2011 16:12:50
Local shouldn't be removed per se - there have been a few threads suggesting changes, tho.

I think peoples appearance in local should be delayed. It's a very easy fix. The time should inversely correlate to the systems sec.

1.0 = 0 minutes
0.8 = 2 minutes
0.5 = 5 minutes
0.1 = 9 minutes
0.0 = 10 minutes
etc.

Another option (that works alongside!) would be getting rid of people showing up instantly in local whatsoever.
You only see (in local):
People you actually see or saw in system (you have their transponder code; visible till they leave system)
People you scanned down (same details as above)
People who talk in local (they send their transponder code)
Allies, corp mates, fleet members

The time delay alongside this is easy to explain: After tha many minutes your passive scanner should either have picked up their signal, or the infrastructure (like stations and gates) did.. but they take some time to spread this information in lower sec.

I'm confident this will improve everything in every regard. Razz
[edit rampage]

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 16:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Tippia
Now, you do know that CCP is apparently already planning to do something along these lines, right?


Really? I thought I was the first to thinkk of this Sad

Do you have a link to where this was discussed? I hope it gets through!!


It was mentioned as an idea only on the latest CSM-CCP meeting. You can read it in meeting minutes at http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/transcripts.asp.

Basically, nerfing jump bridges and messing around with power projection makes a big hit on industrial side of nullsec and requires a complete mining in 0.0 rehauling. If implemented alone, nullsec would become very expensive or pretty much impossible to live in (or not a viable option considering how much ISK can be made in highsec). That brings us to highsec nerf, which is not good (any massive nerf is not good btw). In one word, it's complicated.

About removing local, I must say no to the idea. If I wanted to live without local, I would go to W-Space. I've made my choice to live in 0.0 instead.


W-Space actually gave me the idea of removing local, since I've heard of a lot of people getting goodfights in W-Space, so I don't see why this can't be any different in 0.0


Also, I don't see why the elite PvP alliances that live in nullsec can't just get some highsec carebears to come down and mine their asteroids for production. It would definitely help everyone have more targets, too Smile

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:35:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
About removing local, I must say no to the idea. If I wanted to live without local, I would go to W-Space. I've made my choice to live in 0.0 instead...

If all things were equal then that would be true, but there are some rather large differences. Static entrances (gates) in K-Space, constant probes/scanners running in W-Space, No easy outside capital entries in W-Space and so on.
We'll need rather gruesome boosts to sentry (ie. scanning/probing) capabilities for it to even compare considering the static nature of K-Space .. boosts that might just ruin other aspects of Eve like pirating in low for instance.

Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2011.02.28 18:18:00 - [20]
 

this is a good thread

needs more Evil or Very MadShockedTwisted EvilEvil or Very MadughTwisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil though

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 18:21:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Shobon Welp
this is a good thread

needs more Evil or Very MadShockedTwisted EvilEvil or Very MadughTwisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil though


I thought the overuse of emotes would give me away, so I used them sparingly.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.02.28 19:15:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG

W-Space actually gave me the idea of removing local, since I've heard of a lot of people getting goodfights in W-Space, so I don't see why this can't be any different in 0.0


And that's why CCP made W-Space without local - so you can have a choice and play how you like to play without messing up the play style of people that don't like the idea of no local. It was a fairly good compromise. Wink


Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Also, I don't see why the elite PvP alliances that live in nullsec can't just get some highsec carebears to come down and mine their asteroids for production. It would definitely help everyone have more targets, too Smile


The problem is in highsec population mentality (at least the half that are not alts of nullsec players... or bots). A typical hard core carebear will not move to nullsec to mine Veldspar (or any low end ore). Why would he when he have plenty of low end ore in highsec with much less danger. (The main problem in 0.0 is low supply of low-end minerals). On the other hand, players that do decide to live in 0.0 have different interests and won't switch to mining just because "it's profitable" even if mining get redone.

However, there might be a solution. I've started a discussion in Assembly Hall some time ago which turned to be surprisingly productive, but I don't have time atm to shape that idea a little bit more. However, you are free to take a look and share your opinion, if you are interested.

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.02.28 19:40:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi on 28/02/2011 19:42:41
I will agree to getting rid of local chat or delaying local chat when we can place gate guns and also have a revamp of the directional scanner and/or have something to notify us that there is a red/neut in system even if we don't know how many or what their names are. They can give us an alert for when there is an incursion but we cant get an alert for an enemy in system? And no you cannot just remove local to make it easier for pirates and roaming gangs to gank without any risk of detection beforehand.

As for JB's I don't think removing them entirely is a good idea and the CSM is full of morons for saying to do so. Revamp how they are used and how often they can be used...maybe make them more costly to use instead so there arent massive fleets jumping through them all the time but to introduce something then just indiscriminately remove them seems idiotic.

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.02.28 19:41:00 - [24]
 

The irony of the biggest carebears in the game requesting features to help them hunt other carebears is piping hot.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 21:09:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi on 28/02/2011 19:42:41
As for JB's I don't think removing them entirely is a good idea and the CSM is full of morons for saying to do so. Revamp how they are used and how often they can be used...maybe make them more costly to use instead so there arent massive fleets jumping through them all the time but to introduce something then just indiscriminately remove them seems idiotic.


The CSM didn't say to do it, they just agreed with CCP that they should be gone.

We all know that CCP is infallible and everything works as intended, so I don't see how the removal of jump bridges could be a Bad Thing, since CCP thought it should be done.

Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2011.02.28 23:32:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Centri Sixx
The irony of the biggest carebears in the game requesting features to help them hunt other carebears is piping hot.


the real irony is back when they held delve/period basis before their implosion last year...goons had a very extensive jb network. Pot calling the kettle black kind of thing here. What a differecen a year makes I guess. In all of goons current 62 systems they hold...I am sure not one is soiled with a jb Rolling Eyes .


Like most things in eve...these only suck when not used by you. Me I liked them either way. Some good kills camping jb's by people jumping no intel or eyes in system. These and cyno beacons....naturally selecting eve pilots for years lol.

Shoopa Whoopa
Posted - 2011.02.28 23:36:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sakura Shiro
*snip*


There's a difference between doing what is best and doing what is right.

Smile

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.01 00:00:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Sakura Shiro
Originally by: Centri Sixx
The irony of the biggest carebears in the game requesting features to help them hunt other carebears is piping hot.


the real irony is back when they held delve/period basis before their implosion last year...goons had a very extensive jb network. Pot calling the kettle black kind of thing here. What a differecen a year makes I guess. In all of goons current 62 systems they hold...I am sure not one is soiled with a jb Rolling Eyes .


Like most things in eve...these only suck when not used by you. Me I liked them either way. Some good kills camping jb's by people jumping no intel or eyes in system. These and cyno beacons....naturally selecting eve pilots for years lol.


But JB's are so hard to camp without getting shot at by the deathstar :(

Also, it's about as fun as watching paint dry, much like the rest of Eve.

If we could get small gang PvP back into Eve, it'll all be better!

Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2011.03.01 00:16:00 - [29]
 

guess got lucky...rarely had a deathstar jb pos. Hell one time we were bashing the pos with the jb (nothing on it but hardeners for some reason)...and solo players would jump in using the jb every so often. Stellar use of intel channels on their part lol.

Jock Landers
Posted - 2011.03.01 01:42:00 - [30]
 

Small gang pvp is a thing of the past in nullsec. Regardless if you get your way, it still won't encourage small gang pvp. It's all about SC blobs and large power blocs. Might as well get over it and join up with the big boys. It's what CCP wants.

If you want small gang pvp then get into Faction Warfare. That's where CCP wants you for those purposes. Save nullsec for the grand fleet battles it's intended to be.


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