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blankseplocked Ultra easy solution to fix blobs and save pvp
 
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Viggen
Posted - 2011.02.23 15:14:00 - [61]
 

Shield tank players would cry with their massive sig radius, and before long it would just be big blobs of afterburner armour fleets and we'd be back to square one.

Slapsy
Posted - 2011.02.23 15:17:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Honestly I don't think that damage would be as much as some of you think, sure for the biggest ships but remember the explosion happens, and spreads over an expanding sphere, so 1/r^2. It would add an interesting and computationally taxing effect to battles, as smaller ships could take quite a hit if too close, but I don't think it will be the "sci fi" movie effect many of you are thinking.

Some numbers are:
The damage you take would be your cross sectional area times 1/r^2. In eve, I thin they would equate that to signature radius x 2 pi (just for estimation purposes)

Then at 1000 m (which I think is pretty close even for blob)

Frigate:~ 35 m, Fraction of damage = (2pi 35^2)/(4 pi 1000^2) ~ 0.00061 or 0.061% of the explosion,
Cruiser ~130m, Fraction of damage = (2pi 130^2)/(4 pi 1000^2) ~ 0.0085 or 0.85% of the explosion,
Battleship ~ 460 m, Fraction of damage = 0.1058 or 10.58% of the explosion.

Now if you go to 2000 m separation, you reduce these numbers by 4, if you go to 5000m separation you reduce them by 25.

Again these numbers are rough, but you can see that unless everyone is on top of each other, then it won't be amazing damage, although it might add new strat to try and trigger explosions... idk
What about making the explosion an EWAR effect of some description?

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.02.23 15:27:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
you have to understand why blobs happen

Why doesn't it happen in real life combat?
Do you think in WW2 when 2 sides brought 100s of tanks each, all 100 tanks aimed and shot at single enemy tank and kept switching "primaries" till 1 side won?

Why do you think that didn't happen? it wasn't cause damage had stacking penalties.


There are two reasons why it doesn't happen in real life. Command and control and the fact that it doesn't generally take an entire forces firepower to destroy a single target.

It's much harder to identify a single target on a battlefield in current times (though it's getting better) then in the game. But believe me as technology improves you'll see more of it in battles where it matters.

It generally only takes a single round from a weapon system to kill an equivelent (or even superior opponent in battle. Hell sometimes a single shot can take out multiple opponents in the cases of area affect weapons.

It only takes a single well placed shot from a tank to kill another tank or an infantry soldier to kill another infantry soldier so it would be silly to focus your entire force on a single target while your enemy is tearing through your force.

On targets that are hardened enough that a single unit can't cause terminal damage you can be damned sure every possible effort to focus fire is made.

Even in EVE there is a point where FC's will have different firing groups. No point in having 100 ships shooting at a target if 50 can alpha one into wreckage.

The problem is that greater numbers is generally the best tactical advantage you can come up with. All tactics are designed to try and minimize that advantage if you are the inferior force and maximize it if you are the superior.

Technology can change the equation to some degree but in EVE all combatants have access to the same tech so you're not going to have a case where Joeschumakatelli's alliance is going to unseat NC because of a technological breakthrough.

Another major factor enables non-conventional warfare compared to EVE is the presence of perma-death. In RL if your special ops team manages to take out a squad of troops in an ambush they are out of the conflict forever. Loses take longer to recover from you have to draft them then train them before being able deploy them. In EVE they just grab another ship and they're back in the fight.

Even the idea of forcing multiple conflict points and secondary/tertiary objects doesn't do anything to remove the value of numbers. If you have 5 objectives that have to be accomplished to achieve victory then the force with 500 available pilots still have the advantage against the force with only 200.

Now one thing I think would be useful at least in undermining the Cap ships online aspect would be to lock some infrastructure objectives behind ship type limited acceleration gates in dead space pockets. It wouldn't eliminate the blob but at least it would create a place in the battlesphere were capitals can't be used.

Veebring Greetings
Posted - 2011.02.23 16:29:00 - [64]
 

Stickyfoam bombs, goo missiles and the problem is solved.

Morganta
Posted - 2011.02.23 16:37:00 - [65]
 

we already have a blob control
lag

Frank Shitlitz
Posted - 2011.02.23 17:17:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Morganta
we already have a blob control
lag


Wierd.

I thought lag was the incentive to blob.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.02.23 17:19:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Frank ****litz
Originally by: Morganta
we already have a blob control
lag


Wierd.

I thought lag was the incentive to blob.


QFT

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2011.02.23 17:42:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
How about every ship entering grid past a certain threshold just automatically explodes.


Depending on how large the blob is, this is actually not far from the truth! Laughing

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.02.23 18:29:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Honestly I don't think that damage would be as much as some of you think, sure for the biggest ships but remember the explosion happens, and spreads over an expanding sphere, so 1/r^2. It would add an interesting and computationally taxing effect to battles, as smaller ships could take quite a hit if too close, but I don't think it will be the "sci fi" movie effect many of you are thinking.

Some numbers are:
The damage you take would be your cross sectional area times 1/r^2. In eve, I thin they would equate that to signature radius x 2 pi (just for estimation purposes)

Then at 1000 m (which I think is pretty close even for blob)

Frigate:~ 35 m, Fraction of damage = (2pi 35^2)/(4 pi 1000^2) ~ 0.00061 or 0.061% of the explosion,
Cruiser ~130m, Fraction of damage = (2pi 130^2)/(4 pi 1000^2) ~ 0.0085 or 0.85% of the explosion,
Battleship ~ 460 m, Fraction of damage = 0.1058 or 10.58% of the explosion.

Now if you go to 2000 m separation, you reduce these numbers by 4, if you go to 5000m separation you reduce them by 25.

Again these numbers are rough, but you can see that unless everyone is on top of each other, then it won't be amazing damage, although it might add new strat to try and trigger explosions... idk



Now this could be interesting. I think there should be more rule specifically for capitals and their explosions, as of right now capital battles are decided by who ever brings the most supers to the field, what if ship explosions destroyed those fighter bombers? how would the tides of battle be turned then. Also this would be a great way of reducing lag.

Ok back on topic, yeah i kinda like the sig radius idea, and make damage proportional. But the damage done should remain race specific. Amarr EM, gallente thermal etc.

Zyress
Posted - 2011.02.23 19:13:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Viggen
Shield tank players would cry with their massive sig radius, and before long it would just be big blobs of afterburner armour fleets and we'd be back to square one.



We'd be crying about it being em Damage first, it is after all our hole, and why wouldn't explosive damage be explosive damage type anyway?

Zyress
Posted - 2011.02.23 19:16:00 - [71]
 

On a side note AOE weapons would of course be the best and easiest to implement deterrent to blobs

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.23 19:32:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: TgrFox5
I think an interesting fix would be to instead give solo pilots the power to come out even in a fight with a blob. What I mean by that is you can atleast trade ships. So if your flying a solo hurricane and you get blobbed a mechanic which gives you enough time to take down atleast another hostile ship. Obviously you will still die but you will have a chance to kill something.

For example, you jump into a system in your hurricane and waiting on the other side is an onyx, 2 drakes, rapier, and i dunno whatever else. You probably won't make it back to the gate, and you won't be able to burn away from them so what do you do? You pull a star trek and divert power from your engines to your shields for x amount of time (until your engines burn out). This gives you a hardened shield type effect which will hopefully give you enough time to take down one of your enemies.




Explain to me please how four ships make a blob? And we do have that provision.. it's called "thermodynamics."

Shoopa Whoopa
Posted - 2011.02.23 20:49:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 23/02/2011 20:49:31
Originally by: Feligast
And we do have that provision.. it's called "thermodynamics."

Or siege mode.

Diz Trakta
Posted - 2011.02.23 21:40:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Lothris Andastar
Two Words:
Stacking Modifier.

We apply it to everything else, so why not ship damage? 1 Ship = Full damage, 2 ships = 0.8 damage from each ship and so on.


Three words:
Lamest idea EVAR!

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.02.24 17:06:00 - [75]
 

About the idea of ship explosions causing damage to nearby ships: It has a big problem: High sec.

So in high sec ship A kills ship B, and neutral ship C dies in the explosion. Who gets concorded? Who gets the global criminal cool down, and the sec status loss? If its A or B, that mostly ends all high sec wars. If its no one, then high sec is no longer high sec(gankers will blow up corp mates to kill the target), the majority of eve players cancel, and due to lack of income CCP closes the servers.

So, no ship explosion AOE damage.

Chuck Sands
Posted - 2011.02.24 18:42:00 - [76]
 

The two words you were looking for:

Perpetuum Interference.

Jno Aubrey
Galactic Patrol
Posted - 2011.02.24 18:45:00 - [77]
 

I second the notion of Friendly Fire. I think that would cut down on blobs, and put a premium on skill and tactics over raw numbers. I suspect it will never see the light of day.

That's assuming blobs are a Bad Thing of course. I'm not convinced (except when I am being blobbed).

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.02.24 18:52:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
About the idea of ship explosions causing damage to nearby ships: It has a big problem: High sec.

So in high sec ship A kills ship B, and neutral ship C dies in the explosion. Who gets concorded? Who gets the global criminal cool down, and the sec status loss? If its A or B, that mostly ends all high sec wars. If its no one, then high sec is no longer high sec(gankers will blow up corp mates to kill the target), the majority of eve players cancel, and due to lack of income CCP closes the servers.

So, no ship explosion AOE damage.


lol, I like your if A then Z logic.

You raise a good question, but not one that can't be solved.

Let A and B be members of corp X, let C and D be non-WT and non corp X, let E be a WT

1) If A blows up B, then A gets the GCC and sec status loss if a non-WT is damaged.

2) If A suicide ganks C and D gets hit, then the GCC and sec status transfer to A.

3) If A kills E (a WT) and he hits C, then we have an issue.

4) A sets self destruct in order to damage C, then we have an issue
I think 1) and 2) are straightforward and reasonable, now 3) and 4) presents a dilema, however I think one that can be solved with some thought. Be back later

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.02.24 19:38:00 - [79]
 

So, whenever I know there is a big fight coming, we log in our alts in cheap firgs, bring them to the location, and have then start shooting at our capitals. That way, when the enemy capitals show up, their damages gets massive stacking penalties behind the tiny damage being caused to our ships by our blob of throw away frigs.....

Yeah, great suggestion.

Phocas Lebournes
Thundercats
B O R G
Posted - 2011.02.24 20:55:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Irani Firecam
1. Make some friends
2. Form your own blob
3. ???
4. Profit


Awesome avatar!

Charoline De'Lanari
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:05:00 - [81]
 

Introduce splash damage to both missiles and guns

as it is now, explosion radius, target speed and sig affect total missile damage, low sig radius ships getting less damage, as most of the explosion goes into space.

Guns on the other hand are affected by optimal, falloff and tracking, making them prone to miss as it is now that means the fired round is wasted either in part (lightly hits, etc.) or total (completely misses).

Why not make it so that the portion of potential damage that does not affect the targeted ship is instead dealt to ships in close proximity to it - that would make sense both with missiles and guns - a missile exploding in a blob would damage whatever is near, whereas stray bullets/laserfire might hit other targets instead.

Not sure if it's possible or how hard it would be on the server, but nontheless it would be wicket cool Very Happy

Tom Sasaki
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:06:00 - [82]
 

All we need are ships with bonuses for smartbombs, area & damage with high resists to their own racial type. Make it another tier of BS or somesuch :P

A tool to make those blobs melt that have more versatility and survivability than bombers :)

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:10:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
About the idea of ship explosions causing damage to nearby ships: It has a big problem: High sec.

So in high sec ship A kills ship B, and neutral ship C dies in the explosion. Who gets concorded? Who gets the global criminal cool down, and the sec status loss? If its A or B, that mostly ends all high sec wars. If its no one, then high sec is no longer high sec(gankers will blow up corp mates to kill the target), the majority of eve players cancel, and due to lack of income CCP closes the servers.

So, no ship explosion AOE damage.


good point high sec is a problem, but that doesnt automatically rule it out.

Implementation of a mechanic like this should first be implemented on CAPITALS ONLY.

now as for a high sec fix. I will admit i dont know the exact mechanics of the game but. It could be as simple as this.

If true local security is >=.46 // this is the cut off for 0.5 space.
Then
implement pretty lights explosion.

else // low sec and lower

implement pretty lights explosion
implement omg it hurts boom

end if.

sometiems there is a simple solution to these problems.

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:12:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
How about every ship entering grid past a certain threshold just automatically explodes.


We call that the "stealthed SB fleet waiting on stragglers" method.

Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.25 00:16:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Explain to me please how four ships make a blob?


Numbers are irrelevant. When pubbies complain about blobs they mean any group larger than their own.

Darth McDarth
Posted - 2011.02.25 00:48:00 - [86]
 

It's actually quite simple.

Make a ship that's essentially a nuke.

Something freighter-size, but loaded with explosives. Not able to enter hisec, or use any jump bridges/titan bridges/anything like that. It can only travel by gates, and is extremely fragile, requiring an escort.

It's basically a suicide ship. Warp it into the middle of an enemy fleet and detonate.

Does 100k omnidamage to everything on grid, and 2mill bonus damage to supers. Cynojams the system for 10 minutes, and prevents caps from jumping out for 10 minutes.

Make it cost as much as a jump freighter so it is inefficient to drop on small gangs.

100% foolproof and impossible to exploit.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.25 00:57:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Darth McDarth
It's actually quite simple.

Make a ship that's essentially a nuke.

Something freighter-size, but loaded with explosives. Not able to enter hisec, or use any jump bridges/titan bridges/anything like that. It can only travel by gates, and is extremely fragile, requiring an escort.

It's basically a suicide ship. Warp it into the middle of an enemy fleet and detonate.

Does 100k omnidamage to everything on grid, and 2mill bonus damage to supers. Cynojams the system for 10 minutes, and prevents caps from jumping out for 10 minutes.

Make it cost as much as a jump freighter so it is inefficient to drop on small gangs.

100% foolproof and impossible to exploit.

Then me and my alt can camp 0.0 choke point gates, cloaked, then any time something expensive jumps in, detonate and destroy everything.

Also any time I see an alliance freighter on jump bridge or near station - uncloak - detonate

And every alliance is going to have hordes of these things camping all the important routes, just waiting for a chance to insta kill anything that costs more than 50 million to lose

Darth McDarth
Posted - 2011.02.25 01:06:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Darth McDarth on 25/02/2011 01:06:58
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Darth McDarth
It's actually quite simple.

Make a ship that's essentially a nuke.

Something freighter-size, but loaded with explosives. Not able to enter hisec, or use any jump bridges/titan bridges/anything like that. It can only travel by gates, and is extremely fragile, requiring an escort.

It's basically a suicide ship. Warp it into the middle of an enemy fleet and detonate.

Does 100k omnidamage to everything on grid, and 2mill bonus damage to supers. Cynojams the system for 10 minutes, and prevents caps from jumping out for 10 minutes.

Make it cost as much as a jump freighter so it is inefficient to drop on small gangs.

100% foolproof and impossible to exploit.

Then me and my alt can camp 0.0 choke point gates, cloaked, then any time something expensive jumps in, detonate and destroy everything.

Also any time I see an alliance freighter on jump bridge or near station - uncloak - detonate

And every alliance is going to have hordes of these things camping all the important routes, just waiting for a chance to insta kill anything that costs more than 50 million to lose

They would sacrifice a 4.5 billion bomb to kill a 100 mill ship?
Edit: also, no cloaking. Goes with the freighter thing. Kind of like a zephyr. Can fit one module, and only one.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.02.25 01:07:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Batolemaeus on 25/02/2011 01:08:10
Originally by: Darth McDarth

100% foolproof and impossible to exploit.



After one minute I have already thought of a dozen scenarios where I could abuse the living **** out of your garbage "idea".

And however seriously believes AOE prevented large fleets...you need a reality check. And a brain examination, because there's something seriously wrong with you.

Exordium8
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.25 01:08:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Darth McDarth

100% foolproof and impossible to exploit.



After one minute I have already thought of a dozen scenarios where I could abuse the living **** out of your garbage "idea".

Pretty sure that was intended as sarcasm. It's obviously exploitable.


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