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Sid Haig
Posted - 2011.03.07 15:21:00 - [121]
 

In an effort to gauge your sense of self-importance, could you explain why you believe your page on wikipedia should not be deleted?

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.07 15:36:00 - [122]
 

Lol, I can only assume that the rest of the goon candidates are afraid of Trebors track record if they have to sink this low.

HeroInAHalfShell
Posted - 2011.03.07 17:18:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Lol, I can only assume that the rest of the goon candidates are afraid of Trebors track record if they have to sink this low.



I am afraid of his track record because he is not a good candidate and that is what most concerns me when evaluating CSM candidates. Maybe the rest of the goon candidates are concerned about this too?

I get that there is this idea that goons want to rig the election (1) that isn't really possible (one vote per account seems like a fair situation to me) and (2) even if you hate the guys (the evil, scamming bastards!) you can't really argue against the points they have raised.

Or can you? I mean, you could post about that instead of just contributing white noise.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.07 19:04:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Habaticus
In order to make next year just a lost year and not revert us to the CSM of three or four years ago, we need his leadership.

The CSM does not need a chairman who will rally the other delegates to storm Castle Reykjavik, pitchforks and torches in hand. It needs good, hardworking people who are willing to do all the boring work needed to convince CCP to allocate resources in ways that will best benefit the players. That, and only that, will maintain the momentum built up by CSM 5.

The chairman of the CSM has no special powers or influence, other than that which is granted by the other members of the council.

Mynxee was a great CSM chair not because of her leadership skills (which she has), but because of her organizational skills. She didn't tell people what to do, she just made sure everyone was aware of what needed to be done, kept track of everything, and made it as easy as possible for people to step up and get stuff done.

Whoever becomes the next chairman, it will be a tough act to follow.

Kireiina
Posted - 2011.03.08 07:53:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

The CSM does not need a chairman who will rally the other delegates to storm Castle Reykjavik, pitchforks and torches in hand.



Yes... it actually does. I'm not an Eve veteran but the only times I've seen CCP actually *do* anything is when the playerbase is unified and furious at them. And in the case of botting not even then.

I mean the real activity from the last CSM came once "18 months" had leaked into the wider gaming media. No one knows what the CSM discussed and given that CCP had zero resources to allocate for anything that was raised it was irrelevant.

"Good, hardworking people" get ignored by CCP, the CSM gets used as a convenient media relations exercise / rubber-stamp and then they go off and do what they had planned long before you showed up.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.08 10:14:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: OhThis GuyAgain
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Stakeholders are, roughly speaking, the "customers" of the development team
...
and holds the Product Manager accountable for the results.

Stakeholders... are "customers". How does this make CCP accountable to them? In what way is CCP accountable? What happens when CCP just does what it wants anyways?

CCP can always do whatever they want. It is, after all, their sandbox.

But if CCP, or some group in CCP, fails to engage, or seems set on doing something that concerns us and declines to justify their actions, then there are several things CSM can do. For example:

1) Do the research, and present the facts (which is often related to player opinion polling; the reason the crowdsourcing prioritizations helped was they gave people numbers to chew on).

2) Present good arguments based on the facts.

3) Internal pressure, both by posting in the internal CSM forum, and also by escalating concerns up the management ladder.

4) And as a last resort, public pressure management. We had an example of this yesterday with the publication of the CSM Public Letter about Incarna. But before CSM took the step of making a public statement of our concerns, we spent months (since right after the December submit) working the other options.

HeroInAHalfShell
Posted - 2011.03.08 14:29:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: ******AHalfShell on 08/03/2011 14:30:24
Edited by: ******AHalfShell on 08/03/2011 14:29:06
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

4) And as a last resort, public pressure management. We had an example of this yesterday with the publication of the CSM Public Letter about Incarna. But before CSM took the step of making a public statement of our concerns, we spent months (since right after the December submit) working the other options.



Firstly, before I get to the main point of this post (which I would appreciate you attempting to answer) - how does posting a public letter that contains nothing that the playerbase hasn't made publicly for the last god only knows how long prove that the CSM 5 members are capable of anything other than attempting to make themselves look good before an election?

Okay, you say you spent months working the other options, which are:

1) Do the research, and present the facts (which is often related to player opinion polling; the reason the crowdsourcing prioritizations helped was they gave people numbers to chew on).

2) Present good arguments based on the facts.

3) Internal pressure, both by posting in the internal CSM forum, and also by escalating concerns up the management ladder.

How long did it take before you realized these weren't working?

Additionally it is obvious that 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all part of the same process, rather than being an example of 'several things.' For example, how do you present good arguments without the facts you are basing your argument on? You can't. What you described is not 'several things' but a single process, and I think you are being disingenuous by presenting it as a list of options.

Either you understand the mechanics of the CSM or you do not. One of these has to be true.

So, if you do not understand the mechanics of the CSM I don't want to vote for you based on that.
If you do understand the CMS mechanics, then you just misrepresented them to the playerbase in order to create an apparently knowledgeable/impressive response to a question, or, in laymans terms, you lied to make yourself look good.

Therefore, by your own response you have shown yourself to be either incompetent or a liar, and I don't want either of those on the next CSM, thanks.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.08 18:54:00 - [128]
 


Trebor always seemed a pretty reasonable, hardworking, constructive and independent-minded guy to me.

All reasons why the goons will hate him Cool

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2011.03.08 23:07:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Trebor always seemed a pretty reasonable, hardworking, constructive and independent-minded guy to me.

All reasons why the goons will hate him Cool

If you are hated by Goons you gotta be doing something right. Vote Trebor!

*hands out campaign buttons* \o/

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.08 23:13:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 08/03/2011 23:14:16
Originally by: Kireiina
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

The CSM does not need a chairman who will rally the other delegates to storm Castle Reykjavik, pitchforks and torches in hand.

Yes... it actually does. I'm not an Eve veteran but the only times I've seen CCP actually *do* anything is when the playerbase is unified and furious at them. And in the case of botting not even then.

Ah, but that is not what I said. I said "rally the other delegates", not "rally the players", and there is a big difference between the two.

I believe it is important that the CSM behaves in as professional and businesslike manner; every lapse in that professional demeanor gives those inside CCP who don't like the idea that (oh, the horror!) the players should have some influence over them the ability to squawk :lolcsm: as an excuse to avoid engagement.

And indeed, the very example you used, :18months:, was an example of the CSM being professional and businesslike. We put some hard questions to CCP, got candid replies, and reported our findings in a calm and measured manner in the Summit minutes.

We didn't even need to rally the players. We just presented you with the facts as we saw them, and did you the courtesy of assuming you are adults who can think for yourselves and come to your own conclusions.

Turning to yesterday's Public Letter on Incarna, it is just the end result of an extended effort of trying to encourage engagement from the Incarna team leads that began with the summit meetings in October and December.

We originally published a first version internally, telling CCP we intended to release it publicly, but giving them time to address some of the concerns we raised, in the hopes that the letter could be made more positive, or even rendered unnecessary. I am told that this letter upset certain people at CCP very much.

The only significant visible response to that letter was the first Incarna devblog. Out of courtesy to CCP, we waited and gave them extra time to address the remaining concerns we had; when a response was not forthcoming, we fulfilled our responsibilities to the players by publishing a revised Public Letter, adjusted to reflect the information provided in the devblog, and additionally internally published a more detailed version of the letter.

With respect to botting, which is a concern I share with you, CCP Sreegs has engaged with the CSM on this issue internally, and also publicly on the forums. He also intends to make a public presentation at FanFest on this issue. I hate to admit it, but I might soon have to give a Spork to an ex-Goon.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.09 00:46:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 09/03/2011 00:47:45
Originally by: Harvey Warstein
Quote:
I am the author of the first 4 games in the Wizardry series of RPG games, as well as one of the first anti-virus programs, Virex.... The Gemstone staff responded to this in a totally despicable way: they made me a GM, and I ended up creating a secret-society subgame, the Council of Light. In other words, I'm an old-school hacker (in the original, good sense of the word) -- in fact, I was the Hacking Consultant for the film "Real Genius".



Is there any proof for any of this? Searching "Real Genius" I can't find any proof of that, and wiki articles wont count as proof for... well... anything. (encyclopedia anybody can edit and all that).





Hi Harvey,

I had the same questions and did a bit of research myself. There are quite a few sources to support the statement:
Quote:
Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord is the first game in the Wizardry series of computer role-playing games. It was developed by Andy Greenberg and Robert Woodhead, and launched at a Boston computer convention in 1980. In 1979, Robert Sirotek and Fred Norman created Sir-tech Software, Inc. to distribute the game, and it was released in 1981.[1]
Source: Hallford, Jana (2001). Swords & Circuitry: a Designer's Guide to Computer Role Playing Games. Cengage Learning. p. 5558. ISBN 0761532994



The Ultimate Wizardry Archives
Release Date: 2000
Platform: IBM PC Compatible
Quote:
The Ultimate Wizardry Archives is a compilation of the first five games in the Wizardry series. Included are Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, Wizardry: Knight of Diamonds -- The Second Scenario, Wizardry: Legacy of Llylgamyn -- The Third Scenario, Wizardry: The Return of Werdna -- The Fourth Scenario, and Wizardry V: Heart of the Maelstrom.
Source: Richard Gilliam, All Game Guide. Joe Lamb, All Game Guide.

.


There's quite a few search hits on Google; seems like the man is level on the claim and anyone doubting the accuracy of his statement now has independently verifiable content to peruse. Very Happy


As for the movie bits? Also true...
Linkage (IMDB)


Acki Juc
Caldari
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2011.03.09 05:10:00 - [132]
 

I am not voting for you.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.03.09 05:56:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Everial
Edited by: Everial on 07/03/2011 09:31:23
http://eve-search.com/thread/1305694/page/1#19
How could you ever explain this away? This is garbage, I have no trust in someone who thinks this will fix lag or is a good idea even if it did! Perhaps you envisioned the game as millions of smaller grids or I really don't know, but I don't share that vision.


See, you folks have been playing blobfest online for so long that the idea of combat involving tactics is alien to you. Trevor put up a proposal, and the null sec denizens just cried out, "it's crap" with no discussion, even though the purpose of the Modest Proposal was to stimulate discussion rather than to put forward a serious proposal.

Before commenting, go ask Google about "A Modest Proposal" and perhaps you can start to understand the geek mindset.

As for the questions that aren't answered, perhaps they are not worth paying attention to since they are blatantly trolling or attention whoring?

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.03.09 06:00:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: ******AHalfShell
If you do understand the CMS mechanics, then you just misrepresented them to the playerbase ...


How did Trebor misrepresent the mechanics of the CSM?

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.09 06:27:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn

As for the questions that aren't answered, perhaps they are not worth paying attention to since they are blatantly trolling or attention whoring?



Actually, he answered all twenty one (21) of them. At least, those that were phrased as actual questions and not simply "loludidntanswardisone111!!" statements. :)

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.09 06:53:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Before commenting, go ask Google about "A Modest Proposal" and perhaps you can start to understand the geek mindset.

As for the questions that aren't answered, perhaps they are not worth paying attention to since they are blatantly trolling or attention whoring?


I don't really see how the consumption of babies would help solve lag... But that doesn't stop it from being a good idea.

Korendil
Gallente
Gears of Progress
NE CEDE MALIS.
Posted - 2011.03.09 08:37:00 - [137]
 

You have my vote.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.09 10:21:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: ******AHalfShell
Regardless of personal history, you should be able to put this behind yourself if you're going to be an effective representative. What happens if the playerbase supports something you yourself disagree with? Are we all trolls?

No, of course not. I have no problems with people disagreeing with me, and as long as they do it in a polite manner, I am happy to discuss things with them.

As I've said before, I'm a skeptic. This means if you can provide good evidence that a position I hold is incorrect, I will accept it without too much of a bruised ego. Furthermore, I acknowledge the possibility that any particular position I hold is incorrect, or at least only partially correct.

It is for that reason that I try very hard not to project my personal opinions into my work on the CSM. After all, I was elected to represent the players.

Moving on to your question, if I didn't personally agree with a proposal because I thought it was a bad idea, I would have difficulty effectively championing it to the CSM and calling for a vote. In such a case, I would have three main bits of advice:

First, I would suggest they contact other CSMs that might have a more personal affinity for the subject matter.

Second, I would explain the issues I had with the proposal, on both a conceptual (what they want) and structural (how they are asking for it) level. And if they address those issues, or make a good argument that I am mistaken (or perhaps, a bit of both), then I would be able to raise and champion it.

Third, I would suggest that they contact the other CSMs, ask for their input, and tweak the proposal as appropriate. That would maximize the chances of the proposal sailing through with a 9-0 vote and everyone saying "Good idea!", "No objections," "Does this really need discussion? Let's vote!"

All of the above can run in parallel, of course.

With respect to your other questions, and other posts, do not expect a reply; it's blatantly obvious you're a troll; a three month-old character with only a few posts, all of them about the elections, and all of them recent. However, you did ask an interesting question, and I gave you extra points for having a character name that triggers the forum bad-words filter -- including messing up the link to your posting history on EveSearch! I know you won't be satisfied with this answer, but hopefully it will be helpful to other readers of the thread.

PS: thanks for the all bumps.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.09 10:25:00 - [139]
 

I wasn't originally planning on voting for you but due to all the hate from goons you ended up with one vote from me.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.03.09 11:15:00 - [140]
 

Even though I dislike Goons since the day they formed up I am not avoiding to vote for them due to that dislike.

My sole reason to vote for Trebos comes from my point of vieuw that a Chairman / woman is someone who is organised enough, passionate enough but also willing to redirect any trail offs back on track to get things heading the right way again.

These are qualities I see in trebor and as such I would love to see him in the Chairman position.

This has nothing to do with power or the urgent need to press a hard mark. People need to realise that the CSM isn't for fighting against CCP to get changes but it has to fight alongside CCP to get things done.
All the energy one would waste fighting against the owners of this game could be used for a lot more productive things.

I love EVE and I love the people I play with. These are qualities I rather see in a CSM than someone who wants to have a position there soley to have another ego boost.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.03.09 11:33:00 - [141]
 


Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.09 12:16:00 - [142]
 

1 vote gladly given, Treb.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.09 13:17:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 09/03/2011 13:23:22
The CSM isn't all hard work.

One of the fun things CCP asked CSM to do recently was come up with slogans for in-game banners promoting the election.

Here's one of mine that made the cut and is just starting to run -- enjoy! And thanks to CCP Diagoras for coming up with the idea in the first place.

http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=358Please visit your user settings to enable images.


Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.09 14:18:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Since Jade Constantine has now lined up behind Trebor, that's the kind of endorsement that should make knowledgeable, socially-adept players cringe in horror


I wonder if thats an example of how the Mittani is "lying to you" since I've actually declared publicly I am voting for Seleene. The fact that I felt it appropriate to point out that the anti-Trebor campaign from the Goons was more akin to an invasion of the body-snatchers style imhuman screech aside, you should take an effort to post truthfully if you to hope persuade elements of the community not already wearing a goons-4-life sweatshirt while knucklepaging down the turgid prose of your rather awful ten-tonne-hammer vanity publishing extravaganza.

Still you have to laugh. Are these the kind of "socially-adept" players you are speaking about Mittani?

I feel positively awful to be reviled by this group.

But on a serious note to Mittani - you have a responsibility to your player group. I think you do them a disservice to talk about social inneptitude and ignorance in the way you do. Instead you should work towards better integrating them with the rest of the game by seeking the social contact and interaction that will gain them (and you) a little personal confidence in the years ahead.

***

On other notes, good luck Trebor!
I did vote for Seleene, but lets hope you and the other good independants get a decent share of the independent vote!


Delegado Cero
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.09 16:13:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 09/03/2011 13:23:22
The CSM isn't all hard work.

One of the fun things CCP asked CSM to do recently was come up with slogans for in-game banners promoting the election.

Here's one of mine that made the cut and is just starting to run -- enjoy! And thanks to CCP Diagoras for coming up with the idea in the first place.

http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=358Please visit your user settings to enable images.




That's horrible

Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.03.09 17:09:00 - [146]
 

You have all of my votes. Having spoken to you, seen your past performance on CSM5, as well as reading the deserved confidence Mynxee has in you, I share that confidence in your abilities and hope you get Chair.

Good luck!


Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.09 17:12:00 - [147]
 

I have updated the 4th post in this thread to explain my position on the smear campaign. I commend it to your attention.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.09 17:45:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 09/03/2011 17:48:27
Edited by: Mynxee on 09/03/2011 17:46:10
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
I have updated the 4th post in this thread to explain my position on the smear campaign. I commend it to your attention.


No sensible person who "gets it" that the CSM represents the whole community can fail to see the value in what you brought to CSM5 and will bring to CSM6. I must also comment on the fact that you didn't just go off and work on these things in a vacuum. In many cases, you consulted with other CSM members to get feedback to help improve them prior to raising or initiating them.

Your efforts on behalf of CSM5 and the community are very much to be admired and should serve as the Gold Standard for CSM delegate performance.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.03.09 17:52:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Why the Goon Smear Campaign is Bogus


tl/dr: The goons are smearing me because they know that if I am elected, I will work my ass off to make sure they don't destroy the hard work that CSM 5 has done. I am a huge threat to their pathetic meta-gaming plans, because they know I am very effective.

In recent days, I've been the target of a smear campaign by the Goons, claiming that all of my ideas are bad; that I'm a "dangerous idiot".

I find this particularly amusing since one of my core beliefs is that I should never try to lobby for my own ideas; my job is to be a representative of the players, and push for the things they want...

... The Mittani clearly considers me the greatest threat to his plan to pervert the CSM to his own purposes. That should tell you everything you need to know.


To understand why the goons are afraid of Trebor is a relatively simple matter. They define their success in Eve by their ability to harm or otherwise "mess up" the gameworld. They have tried for years now to achieve this through gameplay with little actual impact ... Eve eats "griefers" alive. The nature of the tooth and claw environment is self correcting.

Now the goons wish to harm the game by perverting the CSM political process to lobby the developers to ensure the utter boring stability in 0.0 by opposing any kind of progressive alteration to nullsec alliance mechanics.

This isn't news.

For the goon "mission complete" in Eve the gameworld needs "wrecking" in some way and having failed through any alternative source of "griefing" or gameplay intervention the best path to the current crop of goon leaders is to seek the solidification of existing power blocs to establish an aristocracy of nullsec that effectively stifles the game.

Why else do they oppose measures designed to open up the make the game more challenging in the sphere of 0.0 logistics?

Why oppose the removal of jumpbridges?
Why oppose the neccessity for escorted freighters?

Simply to ensure the ongoing stablity (read boring stability) in 0.0 that makes a static mockery of CCP's vaunted endgame of alliance politics.

Goons have by and large decided they cannot "grief" eve to death.
But the current leadership believes it might just have a chance at "boring" eve to death as a last grasp alternative to enshrine their role in history before burnout and irrelevance sabotages the goon legacy of shameless self-publicists like the Mittani.



Lilith Faust
Posted - 2011.03.09 17:53:00 - [150]
 

My vote goes to the Mynxee endorsed candidate, Give mittens hell Very Happy


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