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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.23 08:49:00 - [301]
 

No, all I was "getting at" were some of the inevitable implications of implementing (or trying to implement) some "magic solution" to the tendency to form ever huger fleets. This, in context of the thread, is desirable because as we are all painfully aware, there are limits to the maximum size of fight the game can gracefully support.

The only way to do that is to provide some positive benefit to not exceeding some given fleet size. Whether it be multiple simultaneous objectives, some kind of "stacking penalty" to fleet size or whatever else.

But the point I was making is that whatever the solution is, it will always have the effect of:

"In either case, what you're going to end up with is that newbies are going to be told to **** off because they'll be a liability (instead of an asset like they are in goonswarm). Tight fleet compositions are going to end up being even more key than they are now, and smaller and less skillpoint-intensive alliances will have even less of a chance to break into 0.0 than before that change was added. This is why this is a bad idea."

In other words, your objection to Trebor's solution was actually an objection to an inevitable result of solving the problem, not one that's specific to his solution.

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.23 15:23:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
In other words, your objection to Trebor's solution was actually an objection to an inevitable result of solving the problem, not one that's specific to his solution.


Why is it inevitable? See what I was saying earlier about hidden motives? You've found a solution to laggy fights which coincidentally enforces your 'make alliances smaller' and your obvious disdain for low SP pilots. Never mind how bad it is for the rest of the game, or that better, less restrictive solutions might exist, this one is the best and we should do it now.

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.23 20:12:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
In other words, your objection to Trebor's solution was actually an objection to an inevitable result of solving the problem, not one that's specific to his solution.

Um, no. His solution (again, I haven't heard anything otherwise) would essentially be a "hard cap". My assumed solution of fixing the SOV system (or whatever it is they end up doing) so that if you absolutely want to, you can go all in on one system, whether that be defense or attack.

One system would mean that skillpoints (and more importantly, flying The Right Ships (tm)) would be paramount. The other system would still This would mean that your opponent will have the opportunity to pool just enough people in the most strategic systems to defeat your attack, possibly sacrificing others, while at the same time counterattacking in some of your systems, it's up to everyone involved. And if some newbee in a rifter wants to come along, he'll be more than welcome, because there wouldn't be an artificial limit.

At least it'd be vastly better and more dynamic than today's system. I almost get depressed at thinking of how easy it is to defend up to 6 systems simultaneously by just, say, parking the entire titan/supercarrier fleet in one system, reset the timer, move on to the next system and defend it the next day or two, and so on and so on until you come full circle. And, again, IT still has SOV in large parts of delve and querious. They died a month ago. vOv

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.23 20:57:00 - [304]
 

Originally by: Yeep
Originally by: Malcanis
In other words, your objection to Trebor's solution was actually an objection to an inevitable result of solving the problem, not one that's specific to his solution.


Why is it inevitable? See what I was saying earlier about hidden motives? You've found a solution to laggy fights which coincidentally enforces your 'make alliances smaller' and your obvious disdain for low SP pilots. Never mind how bad it is for the rest of the game, or that better, less restrictive solutions might exist, this one is the best and we should do it now.


Um, OK? What? What was "my solution"? Where is my "disdain"?

You seem to be replying to the posts you imagine someone like the person you imagine me to be would make. I'm not even sure that there can be a solution, at least not one that doesn't run counter to the whole "sandbox" thing.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.23 21:01:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: Malcanis
In other words, your objection to Trebor's solution was actually an objection to an inevitable result of solving the problem, not one that's specific to his solution.

Um, no. His solution (again, I haven't heard anything otherwise) would essentially be a "hard cap". My assumed solution of fixing the SOV system (or whatever it is they end up doing) so that if you absolutely want to, you can go all in on one system, whether that be defense or attack.

One system would mean that skillpoints (and more importantly, flying The Right Ships (tm)) would be paramount. The other system would still This would mean that your opponent will have the opportunity to pool just enough people in the most strategic systems to defeat your attack, possibly sacrificing others, while at the same time counterattacking in some of your systems, it's up to everyone involved. And if some newbee in a rifter wants to come along, he'll be more than welcome, because there wouldn't be an artificial limit.

At least it'd be vastly better and more dynamic than today's system. I almost get depressed at thinking of how easy it is to defend up to 6 systems simultaneously by just, say, parking the entire titan/supercarrier fleet in one system, reset the timer, move on to the next system and defend it the next day or two, and so on and so on until you come full circle. And, again, IT still has SOV in large parts of delve and querious. They died a month ago. vOv


A multiple objective mechanism doesn't prevent superblobbing.

Either you have to attack/defend all the objectives simultaneously, in which case you just bring 6 blobs, or sequentially in which case you just blob the first one, or you only need to attack one of the 6 in which case you just blob the one most convenient to you. In any case, there's still no disadvantage to bringing a huge blob fleet.

In my opinion the only way you're going to get non superblob fights is to attack the root cause of superblobs, which are the vast coalitions that support them.

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.23 22:18:00 - [306]
 

Edited by: Lord Zim on 23/03/2011 22:19:03
Originally by: Malcanis
A multiple objective mechanism doesn't prevent superblobbing.

Either you have to attack/defend all the objectives simultaneously, in which case you just bring 6 blobs, or sequentially in which case you just blob the first one, or you only need to attack one of the 6 in which case you just blob the one most convenient to you. In any case, there's still no disadvantage to bringing a huge blob fleet.

In my opinion the only way you're going to get non superblob fights is to attack the root cause of superblobs, which are the vast coalitions that support them.

I love how you insist on using the words "blob" and "superblob".

The thing about proper strategy is that while yes, technically, you can "superblob" one system, it would also mean that the defender, if he had proper intelligence on what the attacker did, could launch a counterattack while keeping a mock fleet (if bothering to do that even), potentially trading multiple systems for the cost of a single system.

But since apparently this won't work, what will then? Space-dungeons? Removing JBs? Removing jumpdrives from capships?

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.24 02:53:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Either you have to attack/defend all the objectives simultaneously, in which case you just bring 6 blobs


if your enemy has 6 blobs, then your problem isn't blobbing, it's that you suck at diplomacy so much that many people turned up to kill you

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.26 20:54:00 - [308]
 

Thanks to everyone who voted for me. I will work hard to live up to your expectations on CSM 6. I am very gratified that thanks to your support, I more than doubled my previous vote total, moved from 8th to 4th, and increased my % of the vote.

The Billions of Ballots Lottery Results!

As I received 3,306 votes, the grand prize was 3,306,000,000 ISK.

The lottery drawing was supervised by CCP Navigator at the FanFest Poker Table (I made the final table, ended up 6th). A card was drawn from a shuffled deck, then the RND key on my iPhone calculator was pressed the number of times indicated by the card denomination (9 in this case). The random number between 0 and 1 was then multiplied by the number of entries (1344) and truncated, resulting in a number from 0 to 1343; in this case 1116. A randomized list of entries (ranked 0..1343) was consulted, and the winning entry was:

Ratacide Vagrant

However, the rules specified that the winning entry had to be a character eligible to vote in the election, and Ratacide Vagrant was a noob who was ineligible to vote. Whoops! Shocked Confused Embarassed

Therefore, the next character on the list, in position 1117, was selected as the winner.

The lucky winner, now 3.3B richer, is Draco Cephus. Congratulations! Very Happy

Pirokobo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.26 21:00:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
The lottery drawing was supervised by CCP Navigator at the FanFest Poker Table (I made the final table, ended up 6th). A card was drawn from a shuffled deck, then the RND key on my iPhone calculator was pressed the number of times indicated by the card denomination (9 in this case). The random number between 0 and 1 was then multiplied by the number of entries (1344) and truncated, resulting in a number from 0 to 1343; in this case 1116. A randomized list of entries (ranked 0..1343) was consulted, and the winning entry was:


If you had put as much thought into your message as you did into that block of :words: maybe you would have done better then fourth.

Garekell
Posted - 2011.03.26 22:24:00 - [310]
 

Ignore the jealous sniping (3-rd grade insults? Really?) and congrats Trebor!

Originally by: Pirokobo

If you had put as much thought into your message as you did into that block of :words: maybe you would have done better then fourth.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.27 08:41:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Pirokobo
If you had put as much thought into your message as you did into that block of :words: maybe you would have done better then fourth.

Thank you for your endorsement of my elite game-design skills. Twisted Evil

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.27 10:46:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Pirokobo
If you had put as much thought into your message as you did into that block of :words: maybe you would have done better then fourth.

The above is pretty standard technique in programming, something anyone with a couple of classes in computer science should know by heart.


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