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Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.21 06:35:00 - [1]
 

or whats a good Caldari gun cruiser?
It has a tanking bonus and a bonus to optimal range for med guns... why is the apparent feeling that the ship sucks?

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:02:00 - [2]
 

It tries to fill a role that doesnt exist, and struggles with fitting while trying.

Kireiina
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:09:00 - [3]
 


While doing anemic damage (Railguns) or having poor range and insufficient mobility (Blasters).

If you want guns go projectile, if you want Caldari go missile.

Brynhilda
Amarr
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:21:00 - [4]
 

I have Caldari Cruisers 3, thinking about going for 5.

The Moa would be the last Caldcari Cruiser I would fly.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:21:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kireiina

While doing anemic damage (Railguns) or having poor range and insufficient mobility (Blasters).

If you want guns go projectile, if you want Caldari go missile.



I thought the hard line racial = weapon thing didnt exist anymore now that they made it so there arent starting packages

Kengutsi Akira
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:24:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Brynhilda
I have Caldari Cruisers 3, thinking about going for 5.

The Moa would be the last Caldcari Cruiser I would fly.


see its the asking why part Im going for here.
"Its the last ship Id fly" doesnt really answer the question

Used to be Caldari = missiles, Gallente = drones etc cause there were the starting packages, now that there arent, its not more opened up?
There is no viable gun cruiser platform for Caldari?

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:30:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung

I thought the hard line racial = weapon thing didnt exist anymore now that they made it so there arent starting packages


Well, thats certainly true for the Moa. It doesnt get a bonus to blasters and it fails with railguns, so you could practically stick any type of gun on it.

The problem is, with the exception of pulse lasers, there are other cruisers that just do the same way better.

Brynhilda
Amarr
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:31:00 - [8]
 

Caldari ships like range, meaning that most of the Caldari gunboats are designed to fit Railguns. However, Railguns are terrible and aren't practical in a real combat situation. Why do you think you never hear anything about any Caldari gunboats?

Everyone flies the Raven over the Rokh.
Most beginners go from Caracal to Drake.

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:46:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Tony SoXai on 21/02/2011 08:00:37
[Moa, Shield is Gank]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x3


Whats wrong with something like this for a moa?

Edit: Moa is a fine boat TBH, top three-four cruisers definately (rupture, vexor, arby, thorax are also good, stabber is good) and the moa is a good competitor, and the Caracal is underrated (both light and heavy missile setups).

tldr there's not much wrong with the Moa; just a bunch of crazed Matari fanboyz spreading nonsense rumors like the Dramiel being king.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:00:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tony SoXai
[Moa, Shield is Gank]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x3


Whats wrong with something like this for a moa?


Simple - your damage is pathetic, and any autocannon or even some blaster boats can run up to you and rip you apart, because you have no way of controlling range. If you do put webs on, you'll have no tank.

Blastermoa has some uses, but Thorax is better. Rupture beats both.

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:06:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Brynhilda
Caldari ships like range, meaning that most of the Caldari gunboats are designed to fit Railguns. However, Railguns are terrible and aren't practical in a real combat situation. Why do you think you never hear anything about any Caldari gunboats?

Everyone flies the Raven over the Rokh.
Most beginners go from Caracal to Drake.


So far as Ive ever hear the Rokh is a PVP ship
I did fairly well with a Cormorant and T2 small rails, effectively "sniper tanking" lol killing everything 50+ km out so it could never even shoot at me

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:12:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Tony SoXai on 21/02/2011 08:12:44
Originally by: Vikarion
Your damage is pathetic.


You're forgetting range; your damage isn't much but you're hitting in your optimal at around 20km.

Originally by: Vikarion
Any auto boats can catch and rip this apart.


This Moa is slightly faster than a plated trimarked Rupture. = faster than most other armortanked cruisers as well.

Originally by: Vikarion
Thorax is better.


Situational.

Originally by: Vikarion
Rupture beats both.


Plated trimarked Rupture dies to the posted Moa setup.

Again: Brainwashed Minmatar lovers.


Edit: The neut also helps with controlling range against some ships.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:33:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 21/02/2011 08:39:29
It does look good on paper, but you have to keep in mind the heavy strain you put on your capacitor.

The top speed isnt all that much for a kiting setup, you'll have to pretty much permarun that microwarp in order to keep your range and avoid a situation where they simply break out of disruptor range or catch you by overloading.

For kiting setups the sprinting capability is important, and your setup doesnt have that. They are harder to fly than people make it out to be on these forums, and without a solid speed advantage it doesnt get any easier.


You'll take around a minute to shave off half the EHP of a shield Rupture or shield Thorax, by that time you are almost out of cap and drones have chewed into your buffer considerably. And that is not even taking into account both ships are faster than you in the first place.

Now with armor fittings, before your cap dies and they inevitably catch up you'll have taken less than 1/3rd of their buffer, and they sport more than twice (almost three times for Thorax) your damage output plus neuts in the case of the Rupture.

Lain Umi
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:39:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Lain Umi on 21/02/2011 08:39:31
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
... why is the apparent feeling that the ship sucks?


maybe you should ask its twin, the Gila. apparently, she soaked up most of the resources in her mother's womb to be born awesome, leaving the Moa with Down's.

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:43:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 21/02/2011 08:39:29
It does look good on paper, but you have to keep in mind the heavy strain you put on your capacitor.

The top speed isnt all that much for a kiting setup, you'll have to pretty much permarun that microwarp in order to keep your range and avoid a situation where they simply break out of disruptor range or catch you by overloading.

For kiting setups the sprinting capability is important, and your setup doesnt have that. They are harder to fly than people make it out to be on these forums, and without a solid speed advantage it doesnt get any easier.


You'll take around a minute to shave off half the EHP of a shield Rupture or shield Thorax, by that time you are almost out of cap and drones have chewed into your buffer considerably. And that is not even taking into account both ships are faster than you in the first place.

Now with armor fittings, before your cap dies and they inevitably catch up you'll have taken less than 1/3rd of their buffer, and they sport more than twice (almost three times for Thorax) your damage output plus neuts in the case of the Rupture.


Fair enough Omara, but having said all that, I think a cap boosted, medium shield booster setup could do really well.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:52:00 - [16]
 

The Moa is intended to be a T1 cruiser sniper. There are several problems with this idea...

1. The existence of battlecruisers.
2. It requires really good fitting skills which people who fly T1 cruisers often don't have.
3. Despite the specific design of the Moa as the cruiser sniper, an artillery Rupture deals more DPS (despite having fewer guns) at about the same range with much more alpha and better cap stability, while being faster and more agile and carrying more drones.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.21 09:01:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 21/02/2011 09:24:00

Originally by: Tony SoXai

Fair enough Omara, but having said all that, I think a cap boosted, medium shield booster setup could do really well.


Even a LSB setup will struggle to keep up with drone damage from Thorax or combined drone and ranged turret damage from Rupture. No chance really for anything less, unless we are talking deadspace medium booster which is completely out of bounds for pricetag.

That LSB is putting even more strain on the capacitor even after we figure in dropping that neut for a medium injector, I dont see it working tbh.

Quote:
3. Despite the specific design of the Moa as the cruiser sniper, an artillery Rupture deals more DPS (despite having fewer guns) at about the same range with much more alpha and better cap stability, while being faster and more agile and carrying more drones.


That is not really true, at the accepted minimum sniper distance for cruiser size the Moa puts out more damage, and arguably has the better all-around damage type.

The thing is, both perform so poor compared to HACs that they arent worth it as a long-range solution, and they dont stand up to medium-range battlecruisers either.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.02.21 09:18:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
The Moa is intended to be a T1 cruiser sniper. There are several problems with this idea...

1. The existence of battlecruisers.



Theres a battlecruiser sniping platform?

Paikis
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.02.21 09:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Theres a battlecruiser sniping platform?


You will never again see this...

Because of... Ferox.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.21 09:43:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Gypsio III
The Moa is intended to be a T1 cruiser sniper. There are several problems with this idea...

1. The existence of battlecruisers.



Theres a battlecruiser sniping platform?


1) 720mm Cane
2) HML drake
3) Arty/drone Myrm...

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.02.21 10:00:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 10:01:01
Originally by: Paikis
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Theres a battlecruiser sniping platform?


You will never again see this...

Because of... Ferox.


Um I was under the understanding that that ship is blowful too lol
Didnt know missile ships were considered sniper ships... Thought those were long range rail type guns

Paikis
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.02.21 10:03:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Paikis on 21/02/2011 10:03:42
Originally by: Sullen Skoung

Um I was under the understanding that that ship is blowful too lol
Didnt know missile ships were considered sniper ships... Thought those were long range rail type guns


Hey, you asked for a battlecruiser sniper platform. I gave you one, it even has range bonuses. Pretty much every BC can be used for sniping though, its all in how you fit them.

You didn't ask for a GOOD sniper BC though, else I would ahve gone beam-harby, or arty-cane.

Lain Umi
Posted - 2011.02.21 10:09:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Lain Umi on 21/02/2011 10:11:11
Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Gypsio III
The Moa is intended to be a T1 cruiser sniper. There are several problems with this idea...

1. The existence of battlecruisers.



Theres a battlecruiser sniping platform?


1) 720mm Cane
2) HML drake
3) Arty/drone Myrm...


-only the drake can reach DPS greater than 400 with a crapload of BCS's. secondly, missile boats cannot snipe as their damage isnt instant. by the time the second volley reaches the target, it's gone.

-none of these can fire from distances greater than 80km. therefore, this isnt sniping. the cane cant even reach 70km with all of its mighty 300dps (assuming all lows gyro II's)

- all of these ships can be fit for medium range combat, which means they do close too 100% of their dps at about 50-60km. the damage doesnt come close to a sniper HAC's, and the range is 60% of a sniper HAC at best.

Batelle
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.02.21 10:41:00 - [24]
 

when fitting big railguns on the moa or ferox, you end up with powergrid issues, iirc.

blaster moa with a neut can be a nasty surprise of a baitship in lowsec though, depending what bites.

Natasha Hec
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Lain Umi
Edited by: Lain Umi on 21/02/2011 10:11:11
Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Gypsio III
The Moa is intended to be a T1 cruiser sniper. There are several problems with this idea...

1. The existence of battlecruisers.



Theres a battlecruiser sniping platform?


1) 720mm Cane
2) HML drake
3) Arty/drone Myrm...


-only the drake can reach DPS greater than 400 with a crapload of BCS's. secondly, missile boats cannot snipe as their damage isnt instant. by the time the second volley reaches the target, it's gone.

-none of these can fire from distances greater than 80km. therefore, this isnt sniping. the cane cant even reach 70km with all of its mighty 300dps (assuming all lows gyro II's)

- all of these ships can be fit for medium range combat, which means they do close too 100% of their dps at about 50-60km. the damage doesnt come close to a sniper HAC's, and the range is 60% of a sniper HAC at best.


A 720mm cane with a sniper fit can hit out to 127km optimal+falloff of which 81km is optimal. It will also do 270dps with a 2.3k alpha (tracking willing)
My standard arty cane that I take on roams hit beyond 70km with tremor if I wanted it too so I'm not sure where your getting your numbers from.

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:11:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
Whats wrong with the Moa?


Hybrids

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:20:00 - [27]
 

Actually, the Moa isn't that bad. In blaster pvp form it's quite decent, has a nice tank, decent speed, good damage and range. In pve it's no worse off than most other turret cruisers, on paper it loses dps which in reality other ships lose as well due to needing different ammo or being in falloff more.

It's not that bad as people say but yes, per above poster; hybrids are the issue.

AristotleOnassis
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:17:00 - [28]
 

All t1 cruisers that arent blackbird is almost definitely outclassed by other ship classes

thorax , rupture, or all so-called good cruisers arent exempt from this same rule at all, they might be arguably better then moa, but they still pale in comparison to the battlecruisers being cheaper after insurance and more effective.

Sonya Kranz
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:17:00 - [29]
 

I guess we all agree that for PvE the moa is horrible, theres no reason to use anything with rails at all if you have acces to the drake or even the caracal.

For PvP however, its a little bit more diverse, every ship has a role or a purpose, and can kill something with a properly skilled and experienced pilot in the right situation.

That being said, the role for tech 1 snipe cruisers isnt a big one, and the moa has horrible dps at that, mostly because of hybrids, and the lack of a much needed dmg bonus on the ship.
With blasters it might work, but not better then any other blaster boat currently in existance, most likely a bit worse even.


The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:58:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Paikis
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Theres a battlecruiser sniping platform?


You will never again see this...

Because of... Ferox.


You own me a coffee, good sir. Laughing


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